The Kaveri Debate: Upgrade or Start From Scratch?

India's efforts to develop cutting-edge engines for its fighter jets face a strategic crossroads. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) plans to create the Kaveri 2.0 – a powerful engine intended for the Tejas Mk1A fighter. On the surface, this seems like a sound upgrade from the Tejas' current American-made engines. Yet, the Kaveri 2.0's development sparks debate when considered alongside a more ambitious project on the horizon.

India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a next-generation fighter, demands an engine far more powerful than the Kaveri 2.0 can offer. The AMCA program may involve international collaboration, potentially leading to an engine capable of an impressive 130kN thrust – power that could pave the way for India's potential 6th-generation fighter projects.

This is where the Kaveri 2.0's role becomes uncertain. Experts suggest that the AMCA engine, if designed for adaptability, could be "detuned" to a lower thrust output suitable for the Tejas Mk1A when it undergoes a major upgrade decades from now. This strategy would streamline costs and logistics, but it also means that the Kaveri 2.0 itself may take a decade and considerable investment to develop, only to potentially be outclassed by the adapted AMCA engine.

So, why push for the Kaveri 2.0? National pride and security play a role – developing indigenous engines reduces reliance on foreign suppliers. Additionally, the Kaveri 2.0 could act as a learning experience for Indian engineers, laying foundations for the AMCA engine. A successful Kaveri 2.0 might even appeal to other countries operating similar jets.

The choice remains with the GTRE. Will they prioritize the Kaveri 2.0 or focus on building a flexible AMCA engine with enough potential for future adaptation? Defense analysts believe India would be better served by refining the AMCA engine and exploring its potential for multiple applications. They argue that a separate Kaveri 2.0 program is unnecessary as the AMCA engine will ultimately be superior.

Some envision a future where India develops AMCA engine variants versatile enough for unmanned combat vehicles, transport aircraft, and even commercial planes.

 

[beencensured]

What is meant by a blank cheque? It means whatever the party asks is provided for. GoI gave as much funds as needed, and then some. So it was a blank cheque. Exact amount is pointless if GTRE never asked for more money.

Never got flying tested bed and been crying for it atleast fifteen years. Is this your example of blank cheque.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Never got flying tested bed and been crying for it atleast fifteen years. Is this your example of blank cheque.

For the last time, FTB come st a much later stage. Before that the engine had to complete atoeast 1000hrs of continious rigorous testing on test rigs within special climate control chambers.

Perhaps, you sont recall what happened lady tine when they tried to test a half baked, untested engine in FTB I Russia. It disintegrated midflighr endangering the lives if test crew themselves after which Russia demanded a Kings ransom to continue testing technically faulty engine on board their FTB.

Due to its colorful history, now it is even more important to testbit for atleast 4000 hrs onboard ground test rigs before it even cleared to fly on uav.

 

[Agar]

A tie up will always be prone to negative surprises. Rather than spending on hope that a friendly country will provide us bleeding edge tech for few billion dollars. Let us put 25% of those billion dollars in indigenous programs. Also pursue foreign collaboration let us see how far it takes us. A derated AMCA engine may turn out to be heavy for Tejas Mk1A.

Same with Rafale or any other foreign fighter or Submarine, it is a waste of money spending on them, no body would offer any TOT on even nut and bolt, in case of Rafale spending $30-40Bln is utter waste, instead that money could be spent on different kind of jet enhines.

 

[Agar]

After 2014 , situations have changed in all sectors of development. GTRE has at least 48 KN dry thrust engine in its hand , developing an AF section to increase peak thrust of 73 KN . GoI must vigorously pursue Kaveri -2 in parallel with AMCA engine with foreign collaboration.

that would be same as Rafale’s engine SNECMA M-88.

 

[Akshat]

Never got flying tested bed and been crying for it atleast fifteen years. Is this your example of blank cheque.

It was provided facilities for testing as and when needed. That’s what is called blank check. And the engine ended up blowing the FTB itself.

 

[Akshat]

Check the funding till date, limited ground based test facilities, lack of aerial platform for tests. Not very encouraging signs from govts.

The funding is more than what GTRE could spend. Serial and ground based testing has been provided as and when needed. Yet no result at all. Not very encouraging signs from DRDO.

 

[beencensured]

It was provided facilities for testing as and when needed. That’s what is called blank check. And the engine ended up blowing the FTB itself.

When did the engine blow up on FTB itself?

 

[beencensured]

For the last time, FTB come st a much later stage. Before that the engine had to complete atoeast 1000hrs of continious rigorous testing on test rigs within special climate control chambers.

Perhaps, you sont recall what happened lady tine when they tried to test a half baked, untested engine in FTB I Russia. It disintegrated midflighr endangering the lives if test crew themselves after which Russia demanded a Kings ransom to continue testing technically faulty engine on board their FTB.

Due to its colorful history, now it is even more important to testbit for atleast 4000 hrs onboard ground test rigs before it even cleared to fly on uav.

Kaveri hass passed Russian flying test bed? But then you bring up stuff that is over ten -fifteen years old. It seems you deny your blank cheque for your own confused ideas. They never had a blank check as this is proven.

 

[beencensured]

It was provided facilities for testing as and when needed. That’s what is called blank check. And the engine ended up blowing the FTB itself.

Ans. 2004 about twenty years ago.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

The funding is more than what GTRE could spend. Serial and ground based testing has been provided as and when needed. Yet no result at all. Not very encouraging signs from DRDO.

They have to wait for months to get a flying test bed. Need to go places for testing engines at supersonic speeds etc. If GTRE is stuck on some issues...let a consortium of academia and industry come forward and develop it in parallel or jointly. Our total spending on kaveri is not even 500million dollars. Its needs high tech research needs lots of talent and resources. It would have been prudent if we would have started with engines from 25 kn, then innext 5-6 years prigressed to 50-60 kn and then in next 5-6 years 90-100kn engine. This would have developed lot of scientific and industrial talent for us.
Look at China, ACAE was funded 7.5 billion usd in 2016. Their yearly R&d budget has been 300million on top of the seed fund. Despite this they have limited sucess. Aero engine maket in India is huge both military and civilian. Western countries are minting billions from it. As it grows they will mint 10s and 100s of billions from us. Why would they lose this for few billion dollar of tie up?. They would only give us the tech if we are nearing success.

 

[Akshat]

They have to wait for months to get a flying test bed. Need to go places for testing engines at supersonic speeds etc. If GTRE is stuck on some issues...let a consortium of academia and industry come forward and develop it in parallel or jointly. Our total spending on kaveri is not even 500million dollars. Its needs high tech research needs lots of talent and resources. It would have been prudent if we would have started with engines from 25 kn, then innext 5-6 years prigressed to 50-60 kn and then in next 5-6 years 90-100kn engine. This would have developed lot of scientific and industrial talent for us.
Look at China, ACAE was funded 7.5 billion usd in 2016. Their yearly R&d budget has been 300million on top of the seed fund. Despite this they have limited sucess. Aero engine maket in India is huge both military and civilian. Western countries are minting billions from it. As it grows they will mint 10s and 100s of billions from us. Why would they lose this for few billion dollar of tie up?. They would only give us the tech if we are nearing success.

It was GTRE and DRDO who came up with Kaveri and the budget. So no one else can be blamed for it. They were given more than what they could utilize so more funds simply wouldn’t have mattered. And what is the point of blaming ‘waiting for months’ when you are talking about a project that went on for 3 decades? Months is nothing in front of it.

 

[Akshat]

When did the engine blow up on FTB itself?

2011 or 2012. You can google for details.

 

[Akshat]

Ans. 2004 about twenty years ago.

And for what?

 

[Akhil]

Whatever they asked for was given

Buddy underestimates Indian babudom. Government departments do not ask budget. Allocation is done as per estimates.

If they were given what they asked, they would have test beds and wind tunnels and ISRO would have space station by now.

 

[Akshat]

Buddy underestimates Indian babudom. Government departments do not ask budget. Allocation is done as per estimates.

If they were given what they asked, they would have test beds and wind tunnels and ISRO would have space station by now.

Buddy underestimates the lies of DRDO. DRDo gives projections for funds required for every project. MoD sanctioned that, and then increased it every time more funds were asked.

Giving test facilities is pointless when you have no engine. It’s not like having a FTB will give you an engine when your engine itself is blasting off and throwing ninja blades. Still, GoI gave funds for testing it as much as needed abroad.