Indian Navy begins trials in Rs 60,000 crore tender for 6 advanced submarines

Indian Navy begins trials in Rs 60,000 crore tender for 6 advanced submarines


NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy has begun trials for building six highly advanced submarines in the country in a Rs 60,000 crore tender, as it is working towards the modernisation of its conventional submarine fleet.

Indian Navy has issued a tender to Indian shipyards Mazagaon Dockyards Limited and Larsen and Toubro for building six submarines in partnership with foreign vendors.

The trials began in March this year when a team of Indian Navy visited Kiel in Germany to look at the Air Independent Propulsion system of the German submarine manufacturer ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems at a German Navy facility, defence industry officials told ANI.

The German firm is partnering with the Indian Defence Ministry's shipyard Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) for the mega tender.

MDL is the prime partner in the tender where the indigenous content in the vessel would be more than 60 per cent.

The second phase of the trial would be held in Spain where Spanish firm Navantia and Larsen and Toubro would be showcasing their AIP system at the June end, the officials said.

The AIP is the most important requirement given by the Indian Navy in the tender as it would give it the capability to stay underwater for longer periods, they added.

Moreover, the Spanish firm would be using the Spanish Navy facilities for the Indian team, they said.

Spain's Navantia and Larsen & Toubro had signed a Teaming Agreement (TA) with the purpose of submitting a techno-commercial bid for the Indian Navy's P75 (India) submarine program.

Additionally, Project-75 (India) aims to procure diesel-electric attack submarines with fuel cells and an Air-Independent Propulsion System (AIP) for the Indian Navy.

The boats would be bigger in size and more advanced in capabilities than the existing boats due to the AIP.
 
60000 crores for 6 submarines.
I.e. $1.2 billion USD for each submarine.

This is more expensive than even many SSBN/SSN submarines.

An Ohio class saubmarine, which is the pinnacle of US Navy's submarine fleet costs almost $2.0 billion USD each.

Either our military acquisition is a joke or we have become Saudi Arabia.
 
60000 crores for 6 submarines.
I.e. $1.2 billion USD for each submarine.

This is more expensive than even many SSBN/SSN submarines.

An Ohio class saubmarine, which is the pinnacle of US Navy's submarine fleet costs almost $2.0 billion USD each.

Either our military acquisition is a joke or we have become Saudi Arabia.
While the submarines aren't cheap by any stretch, there is a slight error in the numbers you mentioned. The Ohio-class came in at about 2 billion USD each in the late 1990s. As of today, that works out to about 3.6 billion USD each, and the figure doesn't include weapon costs, since the Trident SLBMs were simply carried forward from the "41 for Freedom" SSBNs.
 
While the submarines aren't cheap by any stretch, there is a slight error in the numbers you mentioned. The Ohio-class came in at about 2 billion USD each in the late 1990s. As of today, that works out to about 3.6 billion USD each, and the figure doesn't include weapon costs, since the Trident SLBMs were simply carried forward from the "41 for Freedom" SSBNs.
Even at $3.6 billion a piece, an ohio class SSBN is nore favourably priced vis-a-vis a conventional submarine. And all this because we are buying off the submarine from a foreign vendor.

6 Scorpene, 4 U-209 and 7 Kilo class submarines later, we should definitely by now be constructing our own indigenous submarines and instead of throwing billions at foreign sales, we should be making them in-house for much less.
 
Even at $3.6 billion a piece, an ohio class SSBN is nore favourably priced vis-a-vis a conventional submarine. And all this because we are buying off the submarine from a foreign vendor.

6 Scorpene, 4 U-209 and 7 Kilo class submarines later, we should definitely by now be constructing our own indigenous submarines and instead of throwing billions at foreign sales, we should be making them in-house for much less.
Well, if the government had shown some common sense in the 1980s, we would be building our own submarines today.

The Navy, in the late 1970s, was in the middle of an expansion boom, and one of the requirements highlighted was for 20 submarines. That meant 12 new submarines plus the eight Foxtrot-class boats in service. However, the Kalvari-class was deemed as too cramped, and the decision was made to go for 16 submarines, with the last four replacing the Kalvaris in the 1990s. The final plan was to procure two classes of 8 submarines each.

The Navy had five potential contenders: Russia (Kilo-class), Germany (Type 209), Sweden (Näcken- or Västergötland-class), France (Agosta-class), and the UK (Victoria-class). Cold War pressures precluded the UK, and Bhikaristan's purchase of 2 Agostas in 1979 (which had been built for South Africa) meant the French were out. That left three nations.

Of these, the Germans and the Swedish were willing to follow a 2+2+4 model. That is, the first two boats would be built in those nations (with teams from India observing the construction process), the second pair of two being built partially in India using some pre-fabricated sections and the like, and the last four being built fully in India with some imported components, with the foreign shipyard overseeing the work in an auditing capacity. Russia, on the other hand, refused to consider local production. Their offer was to have all 8 ships built in the Soviet Union, with teams from Indian shipyards visiting to observe the construction process. Oh, and the Russians called this "visiting team" paradigm as technology transfer, and increased prices, which led to it never happening. On the other gand, the German and Swedish offers had extra charges for technology transfer, but the first two boats were Essentially built at standard rates.

The Navy was in favour of going with Germany and Sweden. However, cost soon became a sticking point with the Swedes, with the government unwilling to sanction the funding. As such, the Swedes were out, and the Russians were in. Then, the government cut funding even further to send money to the IAF (which would eventually culminate in the debacle of small-scale procurement of both the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000, which threw local production out of the window). As a result, the German contract was cut down to 4 boats plus 2 options.

In the late 1980s, while the second pair of Type 209 boats were taking shape, the government claimed that TKMS had paid bribes for the Type 209's selection, and before a formal enquiry could be finished, cancelled the 2 Type 209 options. That left the Navy with 12 new SSKs, which was insufficient when you consider that the Foxtrots would be leaving service in the 1990s and 2000s.

With the financial crisis of the early 1990s coming on, it was finally agreed in 1994 to simply buy two more Kilo-class boats from Russia, which was selling them on the cheap to raise money for post-Soviet Russia.

Essentially, all that boils down to the fact that the Navy would have got 8-12 locally built submarines had politics not intervened. It eventually left them with 2 partially-locally-built submarines. We never built the Kilo-class.

Oh, and if all that wasn't enough, at that point, the Germans and Swedes were also willing to transfer the maintenance skills for MLUs of these boats to India. Russia only agreed at the last moment because the others had also agreed, and without it, their chances on an already weak offer would be even lower.
 
In the 90's LT had undercut MDL's quote for offshore platforms to bag the order. They also po@ched some key executives from MDL. When 0ngc received the platforms their engineers were totally upset with LT's quality. For this project P-75I, LT had earlier tied up with the TKMS for the U-boats, while MDL were to continue with the N@V@L group. After IN disqualified the N@V@L offer, TKMS joined hands with MDL and lo-n-behold - LT suddenly came up with the S-80Plus offer. So is it possible that history will repeat & MDL will lose this order to LT-Guj@r@t?
 
Well, if the government had shown some common sense in the 1980s, we would be building our own submarines today.

The Navy, in the late 1970s, was in the middle of an expansion boom, and one of the requirements highlighted was for 20 submarines. That meant 12 new submarines plus the eight Foxtrot-class boats in service. However, the Kalvari-class was deemed as too cramped, and the decision was made to go for 16 submarines, with the last four replacing the Kalvaris in the 1990s. The final plan was to procure two classes of 8 submarines each.

The Navy had five potential contenders: Russia (Kilo-class), Germany (Type 209), Sweden (Näcken- or Västergötland-class), France (Agosta-class), and the UK (Victoria-class). Cold War pressures precluded the UK, and Bhikaristan's purchase of 2 Agostas in 1979 (which had been built for South Africa) meant the French were out. That left three nations.

Of these, the Germans and the Swedish were willing to follow a 2+2+4 model. That is, the first two boats would be built in those nations (with teams from India observing the construction process), the second pair of two being built partially in India using some pre-fabricated sections and the like, and the last four being built fully in India with some imported components, with the foreign shipyard overseeing the work in an auditing capacity. Russia, on the other hand, refused to consider local production. Their offer was to have all 8 ships built in the Soviet Union, with teams from Indian shipyards visiting to observe the construction process. Oh, and the Russians called this "visiting team" paradigm as technology transfer, and increased prices, which led to it never happening. On the other gand, the German and Swedish offers had extra charges for technology transfer, but the first two boats were Essentially built at standard rates.

The Navy was in favour of going with Germany and Sweden. However, cost soon became a sticking point with the Swedes, with the government unwilling to sanction the funding. As such, the Swedes were out, and the Russians were in. Then, the government cut funding even further to send money to the IAF (which would eventually culminate in the debacle of small-scale procurement of both the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000, which threw local production out of the window). As a result, the German contract was cut down to 4 boats plus 2 options.

In the late 1980s, while the second pair of Type 209 boats were taking shape, the government claimed that TKMS had paid bribes for the Type 209's selection, and before a formal enquiry could be finished, cancelled the 2 Type 209 options. That left the Navy with 12 new SSKs, which was insufficient when you consider that the Foxtrots would be leaving service in the 1990s and 2000s.

With the financial crisis of the early 1990s coming on, it was finally agreed in 1994 to simply buy two more Kilo-class boats from Russia, which was selling them on the cheap to raise money for post-Soviet Russia.

Essentially, all that boils down to the fact that the Navy would have got 8-12 locally built submarines had politics not intervened. It eventually left them with 2 partially-locally-built submarines. We never built the Kilo-class.

Oh, and if all that wasn't enough, at that point, the Germans and Swedes were also willing to transfer the maintenance skills for MLUs of these boats to India. Russia only agreed at the last moment because the others had also agreed, and without it, their chances on an already weak offer would be even lower.
A very good summary of what went wrong with Indian Navy.
But the sad thing is we have t learnt anything from past mistakes.
 
A very good summary of what went wrong with Indian Navy.
But the sad thing is we have t learnt anything from past mistakes.
The Navy has actually been very forward-thinking when it comes to these things. Pretty much since the Nilgiri-class of the 1960s, the Navy was always involved in the design process, and the idea was to build ships locally.

The USSR was against India building it's own ships, and requests to build some of the Kashin-class destroyers or Kilo-class submarines locally were always rejected.

The problem is that despite it's shoestring budget, the Navy has often been deprived of funds or equipment by the government, therefore being forced to make sub-optimal choices that fit the cost constraints.
 
It would be better if Indian-Govt & Navy will consider to scrap P-75I & instead invest in:-
  1. Additional 3 to 6 Kalvari-SSKs with DRDO's AIP system
  2. Design & Development of Indigenous SSKs under project P-76
It's better to focus on investing in already existing system for Economy of Scales & Indigenous system to develop Indigenous technology & Industry.
 
Navantia is FULL of USA equipments, HDW Germany Hindoo haters and Moslem lovers... Only one option left and that is Super Scorpene..
 
60000 crores for 6 submarines.
I.e. $1.2 billion USD for each submarine.

This is more expensive than even many SSBN/SSN submarines.

An Ohio class saubmarine, which is the pinnacle of US Navy's submarine fleet costs almost $2.0 billion USD each.

Either our military acquisition is a joke or we have become Saudi Arabia.
It might include weapons, infrastructure and other costs.
 
India needs to quickly conclude this deal and start constructing it fast. At best it will take at least 15 years to finish building all 6 submarines unless they use a private company. Most likely they will pick Germany as the navy prefers their technology rather than the Spanish submarines which uses a lot of foreign parts and technology which can become a strategic mistake whenever we might need to upgrade or repair any of the technology.

The most important aspect is that we are allowed to use our indigenous torpedos and missiles whenever we finish developing them. We also need to increase the indigenous technology and content to above 75% at least and then reaching 95% by the last submarine.
 
60000 crores for 6 submarines.
I.e. $1.2 billion USD for each submarine.

This is more expensive than even many SSBN/SSN submarines.

An Ohio class saubmarine, which is the pinnacle of US Navy's submarine fleet costs almost $2.0 billion USD each.

Either our military acquisition is a joke or we have become Saudi Arabia.
Almost the price of 3 Rafale’s, it’s a fortune, No problem paying if we learn anything valuable and build our submarines from the scratch locally ourself after these 6 Submarines, it should not be a repeat of Scorpene in particular and money should not be wasted.
 
With schemes like agniveer ruining the morale and ridiculous overpriced white elephants like mq9 and now this.
 
With schemes like agniveer ruining the morale and ridiculous overpriced white elephants like mq9 and now this.
The MQ-9 and Project 75I aren't cheap by any stretch of the definition, but they most certainly are not white elephants.

Coming to the Agnipath scheme, while the scheme might require some reworking, a system like that is a very definite necessity to manage the Armed Forces pension bill on a limited defence budget such as ours.
 
Navantia is FULL of USA equipments, HDW Germany Hindoo haters and Moslem lovers... Only one option left and that is Super Scorpene..
The Super Scorpene doesn't exist, and if you start work on a new design now, you may as well focus on Project 76. The entire idea of Project 75I is to maintain force numbers in the 2030s, and not to be boats entering service in the 2040s.
 
The Type 212 isn't on offer, atleast not publicly. It is the Type 214 that has been offered.
Why can’t we insist it is type India with all features we want 1. Stealth design, 2. Aip and batteries, 3. VLS like Israeli dakars, 4. The non magnetic hull 5. Best in class sensors, battlemanagement & weapons 7. About 4000 tons, full tot & built in India, it may get expensive but we should have ensured KSS 3 with vls should be in play….this is 2024 and Germany may play ball….AIPs are overrated as Lithium Ion batteries have the endurance with reduced noise as the Japanese have shown with their latest ssks.
 
The Navy has actually been very forward-thinking when it comes to these things. Pretty much since the Nilgiri-class of the 1960s, the Navy was always involved in the design process, and the idea was to build ships locally.

The USSR was against India building it's own ships, and requests to build some of the Kashin-class destroyers or Kilo-class submarines locally were always rejected.

The problem is that despite it's shoestring budget, the Navy has often been deprived of funds or equipment by the government, therefore being forced to make sub-optimal choices that fit the cost constraints.
The Indian Navy in the next 30 years will determine how soon abd whether India becomes a dominant global power…look at UK, then US and now China @ large and powerful navies…SLOC and trade routes determine power and influence, hasen’t changed in the last 300 years….
 

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