India's AMCA: Why a Powerful Engine is the Key to Dominating the Skies

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program is India's ticket to owning the future of air combat. At the core of this ambitious project, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is making bold moves with a next-generation engine that could give the AMCA a decisive edge.

Speed without Sacrifice​

Imagine a fighter jet that can break the sound barrier without burning through its fuel reserves. That's the power of "supercruise", and the GTRE engine aims to do just that with its remarkable dry thrust.

For the AMCA, this translates to lightning-fast response times and the ability to cover huge distances quickly – crucial for both offensive and defensive missions.

Built for India's Challenges​

Heat and dry air – conditions that can limit a jet engine's performance – are a reality for India. The GTRE's design specifically targets this problem. This engine is built to deliver consistent power even in harsh climates, making sure AMCA pilots have the muscle they need, when they need it.

Power to Rival the Best​

This engine isn't just about efficiency; it packs a punch. When afterburners kick in, expect power levels on par with the engines in India's current workhorse, the Su-30MKI. This gives the AMCA the raw force to go head-to-head with the world's best fighter aircraft.

Beyond the AMCA​

The technology powering the AMCA won't stay confined to one program. This engine has the potential to pave the way for India's future 6th-generation fighter jets, ensuring the country stays at the leading edge of aerial combat.

The Path to Self-Reliance​

Success with this engine is about more than just better planes. It's a leap forward for India's aerospace industry, proving the nation's ability to mastermind and build the most sophisticated jet engine technology independently.

 

[Sandeep]

India has already signed a deal with Safran to develop a brand new engine where India will get 100% of the technology, make it all in India and freely sell it to whoever without needing any permission or any veto given. This will be the best opportunity for India to learn about designing and developing such a advanced technology that's never given 100% at all. We will also need to design and develop the necessary machinery and infrastructure which is essential if we want to become self reliant.

At the same time we have developed the 50kn Kaveri engine which will be used on our indigenous stealth UCAV Ghatak which is showing progress. Also we are developing the Kaveri marine engine which is showing a lot of good progress and can in future power low to medium size naval ships. So we should continue to work on the Kaveri engine and build on that knowledge and expertise at the same time. We should also look at developing different type of engines for missiles like the STFE/Manik which has passed the tests and trials.

 

[Pad UwU]

I highly doubtful on this one before 2035... US engines is still more powerful and efficient, next is the typhoon consortium with Rolls Royce in efficiency but a bit lack in power, Russian drunkard's engines are almost comparable to US engines power but fuel hungry and not efficient. It serves it's purpose mostly in cheaper way... Next is Chinese chingchongs engine same as Russian ones but more cheaper and not efficient and worse in some ways than the Russian 😹😹😹 the only one is in last row is France m88 dang it, why on earth they have a good engine in CFM JV but can't innovate its own m88 engine upgrades 🤔🧐....

GTRE can do this in fast way just go and grab the offering joint collaboration with foreign countries and develop a clean sheet design that will be own by GTRE India

 

[Pad UwU]

The fighter engine tech is probably the most crucial technology that India must have domestically - beg, borrow, steal, buy, make, collaborate, JV and in any/all combinations...But let us benchmark properly - F-35s have 125/191 Kn single engine thrust; F-22 have 116/156 Kn thrust with dual engines (232/312) and NGAD adaptive cycle engines are likely to have 150/200 Kn thrust with dual engines (300/400)...Even if we develop (by 2035 at the earliest, optimistically) a 75/130 Kn engine, we will still be at least 20 years behind the cutting edge (NGADs start flying by 2030)...Important to know where we stand in terms of numbers...I am all for domestic efforts as that is the only long term solution, but would caution against undue optimism or alarmism in our discourse..

It'll always be ending up that we are behind in latest tech TBH 😺😔

 

[Sandeep]

All a well and good but if the GTRE is any way involved in project then I have zero hopes from anything worthwhile materializing from it.

It will have to be with GTRE as nobody in the country has the knowledge, experience, machinery, technology, advanced metallurgy extraction to develop a engine from the start with a very high cost running into millions. The private sector doesn't either.

 

[Pad UwU]

India has already signed a deal with Safran to develop a brand new engine where India will get 100% of the technology, make it all in India and freely sell it to whoever without needing any permission or any veto given. This will be the best opportunity for India to learn about designing and developing such a advanced technology that's never given 100% at all.

Our year is 2024 currently.... 6gen aircraft demonstration will be showing up in 2035 with a working ready for pre production aircraft that is touted to have a new engine....

So we already have 10 yrs and 7 month timeline of waiting if GTRE project will bear a fruit... Im laughing right now because this should be a big pressure for them

 

[Sandeep]

Our year is 2024 currently.... 6gen aircraft demonstration will be showing up in 2035 with a working ready for pre production aircraft that is touted to have a new engine....

So we already have 10 yrs and 7 month timeline of waiting if GTRE project will bear a fruit... Im laughing right now because this should be a big pressure for them

Within those 10 years we would be working on developing the engine and testing it which takes years. By that time in 2030-2035 production for the AMCA would of started around that time.

 

[Pad UwU]

Within those 10 years we would be working on developing the engine and testing it which takes years. By that time in 2030-2035 production for the AMCA would of started around that time.

When will HAL be showing up a prototype of of our overspec overhype AMCA???🧐🤔
Remember SK and Turk's already bragging and flying their 5gen aircraft that still needs to be refine

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

It will have to be with GTRE as nobody in the country has the knowledge, experience, machinery, technology, advanced metallurgy extraction to develop a engine from the start with a very high cost running into millions. The private sector doesn't either.

GTRE is the single largest non-performing R&D center under DRDO umbrella, even by DRDO's usually lax performance standards, that says a lot about their work culture. They neither have the competence to handle such effort nor do they possess the technical acumen to absorb technology transfer. Better to transfer it directly to private sector companies such as Godrej or Bharat Forge.

Godrej especially has done far admirable job to produce prototypes for Kaveri-2 dry engines and is much better placed to absorb the technology. However give the same to GTRE and watch them procrastinate and sit on it for at least 2-4 years before they start assembling prototypes that repeatedly fail quality control and flunk during trials.

 

[Akshat]

So due to failure one must stop trying things, every thing at start has some issues.

Still not able to select the engine for AMCA mk2 and then delay is going to happen for sure!!

When one thing fails you try an alternate route. You don’t keep trying the same thing praying for success. DRDO and specifically GTRE has failed. So now we must give someone else a chance.

As for AMCA mk2, there is no delay. As per original timelines, the vendor has to be selected by end of 2025. Not to mention, even mk1 is not flying. Forget that. HAL has delayed even Tejas mk2. So there is far more than enough time.

 

[Dredd]

Atleast deliver one engine which can be used anywhere ,, You haven't even delivered an engine that can be used in missiles, drones, ship, helicopters, or any basic trainer and you dream of developing engine that can super cruise, Any collaboration where GTRE is partner , GTRE will be a drag on the other partner. First give account of where you spend billions of dollars given for Kaveri and couldn't even deliver a dry variant.

 

[Sinan Cagrı Kurt]

The fighter engine tech is probably the most crucial technology that India must have domestically - beg, borrow, steal, buy, make, collaborate, JV and in any/all combinations...But let us benchmark properly - F-35s have 125/191 Kn single engine thrust; F-22 have 116/156 Kn thrust with dual engines (232/312) and NGAD adaptive cycle engines are likely to have 150/200 Kn thrust with dual engines (300/400)...Even if we develop (by 2035 at the earliest, optimistically) a 75/130 Kn engine, we will still be at least 20 years behind the cutting edge (NGADs start flying by 2030)...Important to know where we stand in terms of numbers...I am all for domestic efforts as that is the only long term solution, but would caution against undue optimism or alarmism in our discourse..

F110 from early 80s had similar specifications. More likely 50 years behind cutting edge.

 

[Akshat]

That’s so true. Daam part is particularly important. So far we have only invested peanuts

We have invested as much as the concerned authorities asked for. There was leftover money in the account when they threw their hands up. So throwing more money without changing GTRE is pointless. I know you will ask how much we invested and how much other countries invest etc. But that's pointless when GTRE couldn't even finish what was given to them. So throwing more money without changing GTRE is useless.

 

[Akshat]

Unless and otherwise they produce the Kaveri engine and use it in Tejas the dream of 110 kn engine will remain a dream only

First we need to mass produce the Kaveri engine and ORCA should be a Kaveri twin engine variant of fighter

For that first Kaveri has to work.

 

[Akshat]

It will have to be with GTRE as nobody in the country has the knowledge, experience, machinery, technology, advanced metallurgy extraction to develop a engine from the start with a very high cost running into millions. The private sector doesn't either.

Well even GTRE doesn't have that expertise as they haven't made any such engine yet.

 

[Akshat]

GTRE is the single largest non-performing R&D center under DRDO umbrella, even by DRDO's usually lax performance standards, that says a lot about their work culture. They neither have the competence to handle such effort nor do they possess the technical acumen to absorb technology transfer. Better to transfer it directly to private sector companies such as Godrej or Bharat Forge.

Godrej especially has done far admirable job to produce prototypes for Kaveri-2 dry engines and is much better placed to absorb the technology. However give the same to GTRE and watch them procrastinate and sit on it for at least 2-4 years before they start assembling prototypes that repeatedly fail quality control and flunk during trials.

What about ADE?

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So due to failure one must stop trying things, every thing at start has some issues.

Still not able to select the engine for AMCA mk2 and then delay is going to happen for sure!!

When u do something and fail u don't do the same thing again. Einstein once described madness as doing same thing over and over again only to fail and expect different results. U need to change things and start afresh with a new perspective to succeed.

 

[Akshat]

India has already signed a deal with Safran to develop a brand new engine where India will get 100% of the technology, make it all in India and freely sell it to whoever without needing any permission or any veto given. This will be the best opportunity for India to learn about designing and developing such a advanced technology that's never given 100% at all. We will also need to design and develop the necessary machinery and infrastructure which is essential if we want to become self reliant.

At the same time we have developed the 50kn Kaveri engine which will be used on our indigenous stealth UCAV Ghatak which is showing progress. Also we are developing the Kaveri marine engine which is showing a lot of good progress and can in future power low to medium size naval ships. So we should continue to work on the Kaveri engine and build on that knowledge and expertise at the same time. We should also look at developing different type of engines for missiles like the STFE/Manik which has passed the tests and trials.

India has not signed any such deal. Not yet. The press release after P M's last France visit said the deal is 'expected' to be signed by the end of 2024.

And nothing is Kaveri is working. All DRDO lies. No one outside of Kaveri has ever said that even a bolt used in Kaveri works as intended. All trials (available in public domain) failed and no product has ever used it. DRDO at it's finest.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

What about ADE?

ADE too is right up there in top 5 list but yet to reach the top. After all to compete with GTRE to take the crown of being the single most inefficient agency under DRDO takes some time to chart up a record. But I am pretty sure they will eventually get there.

 

[Akshat]

I highly doubtful on this one before 2035... US engines is still more powerful and efficient, next is the typhoon consortium with Rolls Royce in efficiency but a bit lack in power, Russian drunkard's engines are almost comparable to US engines power but fuel hungry and not efficient. It serves it's purpose mostly in cheaper way... Next is Chinese chingchongs engine same as Russian ones but more cheaper and not efficient and worse in some ways than the Russian 😹😹😹 the only one is in last row is France m88 dang it, why on earth they have a good engine in CFM JV but can't innovate its own m88 engine upgrades 🤔🧐....

GTRE can do this in fast way just go and grab the offering joint collaboration with foreign countries and develop a clean sheet design that will be own by GTRE India

Actually French engines are far more advanced than you imagine. Check their factors like thrust to dry weight etc. Also, while Safran has often proposed more powerful engines, French airforce simply has refused since Rafale works just fine with the current engines.

As for RR. They actually are not anywhere close to number 2. In the EF engine, they only had 33% share of development. The compressor portion, which is where even India lacked, is their biggest weakness. This part was developed by Germany and Italy as RR failed to do it. Even for Ador engines, France delivered the compressors as RR can't do it (even though the compressors have been blamed for certain recent issues in the engines). This shows that RR simply isn't capable of making the engines on it's own. Only US, France, Russia and China can currently make the entire engine on their own. Out of these, while France lacks the thrust, their engines perform exceptionally well on reliability and efficiency. US is of course the leader across all factors.

 

[Akshat]

Our year is 2024 currently.... 6gen aircraft demonstration will be showing up in 2035 with a working ready for pre production aircraft that is touted to have a new engine....

So we already have 10 yrs and 7 month timeline of waiting if GTRE project will bear a fruit... Im laughing right now because this should be a big pressure for them

This engine has to be used on AMCA Mk2. This means ADA-HAL have to deliver AMCA Mk1 first. So GTRE can take their time. We all know that there is no way AMCA is coming online before 2045, at the earliest.