GTRE Seeks At Least $4.5 Billion for 110-120kN AMCA Engine Development, Citing Extensive R&D, Testing, and Validation Process

The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a laboratory under India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has announced that it requires a minimum of $4.5 billion (approximately ₹37,500 crore) to develop a next-generation engine for the country's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fighter jet program. This was stated by Dr. SV Ramana Murty, Director of GTRE.

The new engine, designed to produce a thrust of 110-120 kilonewtons (kN), represents a significant technological leap for India. This level of thrust is comparable to engines used in advanced fighter jets like the Eurofighter Typhoon (which uses the EJ200 engine) and the Dassault Rafale (which uses the Snecma M88 engine). The proposed investment reflects the complexity of creating such a powerful and sophisticated engine.

The engine is planned to feature several key improvements. These include a better thrust-to-weight ratio (meaning more power for its size), greater fuel efficiency (allowing for longer flight times), increased durability, and potentially some features to reduce the aircraft's radar signature. These characteristics are essential for a modern combat aircraft to be effective.

A substantial amount of the funding will be dedicated to research and development (R&D). This phase includes the initial design, the creation of prototypes, and rigorous testing under a wide range of simulated flight conditions. The requested sum also includes the set up for making the engine, including the advanced manufacturing process for the complex parts. Moreover, there will be the test set up for entire trials of engine.

Beyond initial development and production, the budget also covers crucial steps like fitting the engine into the AMCA aircraft, conducting extensive flight tests, and achieving the required certifications to ensure the engine is safe and ready for operational use. The successful development of this engine is critical for India's strategic autonomy in defence technology, reducing reliance on foreign suppliers for crucial military hardware.

 

[Chitra]

He is asking for funding. But he is not telling us if he is capable of delivering the right machine at the right time. Can GTRE give in writing that it will test and commercialize production in 5 years? Or will he deliver the first engine in 3 years for hardcore testing in an aircraft?

 

[abhinav srivastava]

It is important to start developing smaller kN engines as well. Once an ecosystem is built, newer engines will be developed faster and will be more cost-effective. Encourage private companies to co-develop sub-25 kN engines. Use the DATRAN development model.

 

[beencensured]

How will these salaries and pensions get the engine developed? We need creation of testing and development infrastructure and project funding to develop engines.

Exactly. Without flying test beds and test facilities, how would they certify the engine? Going to Russia to test, but after years, is lack of practical. Lack of high-altitude test facilities.

They have successfully made engines for Ghatak, the dry Kaveri, and STFE. But they should tie up with some of the more innovative startups, academia/universities, and the private sector to develop engines and utilize their talents.

Second, there is no need to make standards so high, to be better than the West, but use whatever current technology is needed to solve the thrust and reliability issues, to make a working system that can always be upgraded later when better technology comes along.

Certainly, being first is the goal, and ideal, like Moksha and perfection, but we need solutions to current problems.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

The budget and funding should not be an issue for the AMCA engine, but the project deliveries, with firm dates fulfilling set objectives, are. Period. Why others with 4 or 5 or 4.5 billion USD? Just deliver.

Unless this is the approach, we are going by the same bureaucratic approach.

 

[Akshat]

If funds were more than what is required, then where are the High-Altitude Test Facility, Flight Test Bed (FTB)? There are many more missing things. Someone has a detailed thread on Twitter.

We should have roped in more labs and institutions like IISc, IIT Kanpur, etc., PTC, and Bharat Forge, etc. for our engine development, metallurgy, and electronics. This would have led to additional expenditure but would have been worth it.

With the salaries we provide, we don't get the best talent. Still, our dry Kaveri engine has achieved 49 KN of dry thrust. We may have reached there slowly, but it's no small achievement. Also, we jumped to 40-50 KN engine development without working on, say, a 10 or a 20 KN one. We should have done that. At least when we were stuck with Kaveri's slow progress, we should have started with smaller KN engines. More talent would have come into engine development, more and more subsystems and materials would have been developed with a growing ecosystem.

Read my response above regarding FTB. Same goes for other facilities.

As for all these institutes, roping them in was part of GTRE. They refused to let anyone in. Many threads regarding this are also on the internet, if you bother to read.

As for what has been achieved, answer is nada! Not a thing. all this 49 kN, 73 kN, flat thrust etc. are all just shagufas. Tell me a single thing that has been independently validated so far, can you? We have not achieved anything when it comes to KAveri, except lies and propaganda. As for your other lie, GTRE was actually given funds to develop an engine for an aircraft (I don't remember exact thrust but dry thrust was in the 30 kN range) which was not used for anything, just like Kaveri. So it's not like we went directly to KAveri. GTRE had one failure, and Kaveri is the second one. So lies again.

 

[Tim]

DRDO is a white elephant. If the indian government does not encourage pvt.companies then can surely kiss the mo ey goodbye. It's not just the money but useless organizations like DRDO are just not capable to achieve goals. If they take 30 to 40 years no matter how many billions india will never get back the years lost. Why I ask you why is the a reluctance to let pvt. Companies into defense. I thought the Modi government has more foresight. But I guess not. Just privatise DRDO AND HAL and within 5 years we will reach the pinnacle of success.

 

[kumar]

Any project, when drafted, has specific milestones. When you reach the first milestone successfully, the funding for the successive phase is released in tranches. Nobody hands over lump sum funding at once. That's the SOP worldwide. The misfortune of GTRE was that it flunked in the first phase itself and exposed severe design flaws in the engine core and materials.

Once it was established that the core design itself was structurally flawed and kept disintegrating, both in static ground tests and flying test beds, it made little sense to fund the development of the second phase when the first phase itself was never satisfactorily achieved.

You are comparing projects run by the private sector with a government sector project. When it is a question of releasing funds, it is not the same as in the private sector.

What you and bureaucrats are expecting is for Kaveri to complete development using foreign test facilities, and that is precisely not how R&D is done. If you have doubt, you can go check the F119 jet engine development issues. And this is from an established engine house with well-developed test facilities within the country.

You need test facilities during development and not once development is concluded. You need expensive and expansive test facilities for jet engine development.

And that is in a country where the threshold for failures after the product is deployed in the field is very low because of people here who don't understand the head or tail of R&D.

FYI, GTRE has been waiting for over a year now for a test slot in a Russian high altitude test facility. That is how moronic this program's funding is being run now by the MOD.

Or are you telling me that there should not have been problems in the engine (whether engine core, structure, or anything else) during development without using test facilities? Is that how you think R&D is done?

 

[Snapper Snap]

Very wise decision, better late than never. Invest. Invest in Technology. That's the only way it works.

This time, adhere to a strict time frame of 36 months.

Make it a 6th/7th Gen vision. 120 to 200 KN.

 

[Abs29]

You are comparing projects run by the private sector with a government sector project. When it is a question of releasing funds, it is not the same as in the private sector.

What you and bureaucrats are expecting is for Kaveri to complete development using foreign test facilities, and that is precisely not how R&D is done. If you have doubt, you can go check the F119 jet engine development issues. And this is from an established engine house with well-developed test facilities within the country.

You need test facilities during development and not once development is concluded. You need expensive and expansive test facilities for jet engine development.

And that is in a country where the threshold for failures after the product is deployed in the field is very low because of people here who don't understand the head or tail of R&D.

FYI, GTRE has been waiting for over a year now for a test slot in a Russian high altitude test facility. That is how moronic this program's funding is being run now by the MOD.

Or are you telling me that there should not have been problems in the engine (whether engine core, structure, or anything else) during development without using test facilities? Is that how you think R&D is done?

No that's the standard format even for government projects. The organization conducts feasibility study and then proposes a rough timeline estimate for development. That estimate is rough is almost always is missed. Then the they themselves create project milestones and request funding by drafting a project development proposal. Once Cabinet Committee on Security approves it, the project formally commences and funding is allocated. However that funding is mostly for first phase development. Once they reach the milestone of project development the funding for next phase is approved.

Now as far as GTRE is concerned its no secret that its the most inefficient and abysmal lab under DRDO, even DRDO internal assessments have routinely flagged serious issues with the way they function. The Lack of FTB is a poor attempt deflect blame of designing a structurally flawed engine. During the flight trials in Russia, the whole engine disintegrated more than once, essentially suggesting that GTRE jumped gun and pushed a problem prone engine for flight tests onboard the FTB, without adequately proof testing the platform on ground based test rigs in specialized climate chambers that mimic high altitude flight conditions.

Oh by the way do u know why the turbofan engine is called a Single Crystal Blade engine? its bcoz they build all turbine blades from a single crystal of metal alloy. GTRE geniuses faulted in estimate of volume of metal crystal required and were probably short of materials and then tried to machine the same with another crystal. Only that explains the faliure scenario where the fan blades shatter mild flight. The reason the new Kaveri is demonstrating some promising future is bcoz, GTRE is now out of fabrication loop for most part and the fabrication is now being exclusively handled by Godrej Aerospace in consultation with BHEL and GTRE.

 

[AK S]

What was GTRE doing past 40 years? Govt should provide the finding to a private company with achievable targets.

Waiting for the CCS approval and funds. Now waiting endlessly for foreign co-development partner. They will be selected after AMCA first flight!

 

[AK S]

4.5 billion?? Wow. Even after this they will fail to develop a powerful engine. Private sector should build the engine.

Who exactly you have in mind?

As per one estimate of DDR, about $2.5B is needed for the bare essential infra for jet engine. If the enitre infra is set-up the estimate is well over $3B. You are gonna need the rest for the actual prototype development.

China spent close $12B. They have much bigger military industrial complex. They have deep reverse engineering team. Yet their jet engines are nowhere near even the old Russian tech.

Understand that jet engine development is neither cheap nor easy. Shutting down Kaveri program in 2007-08 was the single biggest mistake in Indian military aviation history. We are now completely dependent on GE. Such a high price that India is paying.

 

[AK S]

Worthy product will come when we establish test facilities. When will we use test facilities, if not during the development stage?

Of course you need infra during development and afterwards.

Success of Kaveri or for that matter, even ToTs of GE F414 or Al31F hurts French aviation industry the most. And hence they would come up lots of funny ideas and cook lies and propaganda. French meltdown is understandable.

 

[MKR]

Whoever questions the DRDO and says that this fund must go to a private organization, I only ask one simple question: DRDO made a 49kN dry thrust engine and a wet thrust of 81kN with only 500 million dollars. How much thrust jet engine made by any private companies in India? Now, the second question: If you have to fund, then whom will you fund? The organization that can make an 81kN engine or the company who can make a 2-4kN jet engine? Anybody, please answer.

When they could make an 81 kn wet thrust engine for under 4000 crores , then why do they need 38000 crores...how did they arrive at this figure ? Or is it simply a ploy so that govt says too expensive and goes for imports? Govt did they float tenders within India for this development ? No. But for fighters they float all over the world. Is anybody actually running our defence ministry ?

 

[AK S]

1. The typical development cost of a new engine, as estimated by Global Engine OEMs, is $2.5-3 billion. In that estimation, engineering efforts are costed at a rate of $100 per hour. The split of material cost and engineering efforts is, say, 50:50 (may be different). That implies 15 million (1.5 crore) man-hours.
2. In India, engineering efforts, on average, would cost $20 per hour in the private sector (may be less in the government sector). Therefore, one would expect that total development could be limited to within $2 billion. GTRE is asking for more than double that amount. I hope there are enough reasons to justify that.

As per one of the estimate of DDR, bare minimum infra cost is ab out $2.5B. If one were to cover all of them, it would be over $3B. This is just the infra. Now comes the cost of labour and material for the development.

 

[pawan]

Give them the money, but atleast make the test bed facilities in Bharat first. And high altitude test facilities is a must. Why the hell we spend so much time in trying to get testing time slot in Russia? Make 3 in Bharat and reduce testing and turn around time.

 

[Ravi]

Waiting for the CCS approval and funds. Now waiting endlessly for foreign co-development partner. They will be selected after AMCA first flight!

Funds will come but why do you need a foreign partner when you have so many qualified people, the tools and AI to accelerate the development. You are getting into a trap as the foreigner will impose tacit restrictions that you will realize 10 yrs later. Please dont take this as criticism but as faith in our tech talent, unless I am missing something.

 

[Imaxxx]

Before knocking GTRE, know this fact: the number of employees at GTRE is 845! Yes just 845. And we expect them to develop the Kaveri engine! In comparison, NPO Saturn has 23000 employees. GTRE is handicapped by funding, resources and lack of facilities.

 

[OpenMindIndian]

Before funding a single paisa, they should give in writing the deadline within which they will deliver and beyond which they will not ask for further funds.Also whether the funds will be used for payment to collaborator or own research, ie whether the research will be outsourced. If research is to be outsourced to foreign collaborator, gtre should be shut down without further ado. It has outlived its reason d etre as a research organisation. It should rename it self as a copy and paste establishment.