France Offers 100% ToT for AMCA 110kN Engine and Underwater Drones to India, Supports Nuclear Attack Subs Construction

In a move set to significantly boost India's defence capabilities, France has offered full transfer of technology (ToT) for 110 kilo-Newton thrust aircraft engines and underwater drones, and has expressed willingness to support India's construction of nuclear attack submarines.

These developments are expected to be major talking points during the upcoming India-France strategic dialogue between National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and French President Emmanuel Macron's diplomatic advisor Emmanuel Bonne in Paris.

This strategic dialogue comes at a crucial time when India is actively seeking to enhance its naval prowess, with the Indian Navy reportedly approaching the government regarding the need for nuclear attack submarines.

France's offer to assist in this endeavor, along with its offer of full-spectrum autonomous systems for air, surface, and underwater domains, could substantially bolster India's intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities.

Another significant aspect of the dialogue will be the potential collaboration on aircraft engines. Safran, a French company with a history of collaboration with India's space agency ISRO, has offered to jointly design, develop, certify, and produce 110 KN engines for India's future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project.

This offer includes 100% ToT, even for the critical hot engine sections, and promises Indian ownership of the jointly developed engine with the freedom to export it without restrictions.

The strengthening of the India-France strategic defence partnership is seen as pivotal for India's strategic autonomy. The two nations are already collaborating in various defence domains, including the potential acquisition of Rafale-Maritime fighters for India's aircraft carriers and the joint construction of Kalvari class diesel attack submarines.

Beyond defence, the dialogue is expected to cover a wide range of issues of mutual interest, including deepening cooperation in the Indo-Pacific, particularly in the Indian Ocean. The Middle East conflict, the targeting of commercial shipping by Houthis in the Red Sea, the situation in Bangladesh, and the elections in Sri Lanka are also likely to be discussed.

France's comprehensive support for India's defence aspirations, encompassing critical technologies and strategic cooperation, highlights the deepening trust and alignment between the two nations. It also underlines France's commitment to supporting India's rise as a major power in the Indo-Pacific region.

 

[Sandeep]

We already possess all the technology to build our own engines except the know how to build the blades of the engine. MIDHANI has already mastered the knowledge of the alloy for building the engine. HAL is already building a lot of engines for helicopters and jaguar fighters. BEL is already building a lot of electronics for the engine. ISRO and BDL have a lot of experience in building high thrust engines for satellite vehicles and missiles. Brahmos develop a lot of technology for high thrust engines. Some of the private sector companies are overhauling the engines of commercial planes. We can combine the knowledge of all these organizations and can build a good engine. We already have the knowledge of building kaveri, AL 31 and RD 33 engines.

The only thing we lacking is a person who can bring all these organizations together and coordinate with all of them. This is at present not possible due to the ego problems of the people who are entrusted with the job of developing the Indegenous engine.
they don't want to loose their hierarchy.

The problem we have is that we only have parts of knowledge of AL31, RD33 etc but never 100% of the technology which can’t be used individually or mix and match on an indigenous engine. Developing something is only 1 step but testing it out on a jet is the difficult part where we have mostly failed on because after knowing about some of the technology then there’s the engineering, electrical and piping sections which plays a part. Also getting small to medium companies to invest and bring many companies and their own interests together never works.

 

[Sunil Choan]

As i said earlier it will b European country but Not US , most likely US will Return empty hand whether it is Naval Fighter jet MRFA or Aero-Engine development or AMCA project consultant French have great chance From 26 Rafale M.MRFA to Aero-Engine development plus same Engine (110 kN )can b Integrated on Indian Rafale

Need to expedite development within 3-5 yrs not longer plus Kaveri engine development handed to private company with time frame and cost

 

[sanket]

Um, the present deal for the F414 ToT is for 80% in order to protect IP, and is pretty much the highest amount of ToT ever offered by the US on aero engines. In any case, even GE has committed to joint IPR and 100% ToT should they be chosen for co-development of the AMCA engine. The same is true for Safran and for RR.

how it will b 100% ToT, Bharat want some Tech , Most of the tech have developed by GTRE/DRDO, Most Likely it is hot core section .Though AMCA Engine will b developed from Scratch ,while GE is pushing its GE-414 as base for 110 kN Engine development how will they Transfer 100% ToT , a Engine which is already develped How will they share IPR with GTRE.. While one which Safran & RR is on offer will have work share agreement with GTRE . Both (GTRE & RR/Safran ) will develop Resp section of Engine & Tech. Till date GE havent committed to Joint IPR & ToT if u have source pl share it , plus No Restriction on Export . Only Question is what will Safran charge for developemnt of certain Tech & Most important The Entire cost of the project of AMCA Engine . Engine components has to manufactured in Bharat ,with complete Eco-system developed Locally / Indigenously

 

[Girish Tyagi]

Going for American engine for AMCA would means AMCA will never see the light of the day. US would delay it so much that India would have no choice to buy US plans. India must sign contract with Safron as France is also looking to decouple from US and India/France can be a very good co-partner for future tech development.
US as friend is far more dangerous then being enemy

 

[Akshat]

Going from prototype to production will also take time, and that has to be taken into consideration.

AMCA itself will take far more time. And then there will be mk2.

 

[Anant]

AMCA itself will take far more time. And then there will be mk2.

Quite true. Very optimistically, I see AMCA entering production in 2035-36, though the realist in me says 2038-40.

 

[Akshat]

There are many things which need to be clear what would be the training cost etc? Prima facia this deal looks good but there are many catch inside so we need to be very clear on all parameters before we seal any deal...these should not be a tactic to just get deals eg. they Got the Rafale deal but till now no investment happened from Safran to India and they are delaying..

All offsets and ToT regarding Rafale have already been completed by the concerned vendors.

 

[Akshat]

Quite true. Very optimistically, I see AMCA entering production in 2035-36, though the realist in me says 2038-40.

The realist in you seem over optimistic bro. Assuming HAL and ADA keep leading the project, I don’t see AMCA mk1 getting inducted even by 2045.

 

[Mrityunjay Shrivastav]

All offsets and ToT regarding Rafale have already been completed by the concerned vendors.

did they revived kaveri or build a land based test bed even?

 

[M S ChatterjiVerified member]

Great. Now GOI should hurry and sign the contract asap. Development cycle will take 10 years. TOT is very important as this 110KN engines will run till 2060s.

A challenge to GE and US for its deliberate delay on supply of GE engines.

 

[Akshat]

did they revived kaveri or build a land based test bed even?

Why would they do that? Did they ever sign a deal for that? Was either of those mentioned as one of the prerequisites in the Rafale deal?

 

[PKPRS]

Great. Now GOI should hurry and sign the contract asap. Development cycle will take 10 years. TOT is very important as this 110KN engines will run till 2060s.

Why couldn’t Safran make an engine for FCAS, let alone faster engine for Rafale, I wish they know, otherwise MTU wouldn’t make AERO engine for FCA, only engine they have is 80’s tech M88 engine copied from EJ200.

 

[Mrityunjay Shrivastav]

Why would they do that? Did they ever sign a deal for that? Was either of those mentioned as one of the prerequisites in the Rafale deal?

Yes 600Million offset for engine was agreed by them but they scammed us just like 1999 mirage upgrade, 40M for no engine swap, no aesa, no significate upgrade or even weapons (just handful of israeli bombs, MICA which was legging behind not just western but russian missiles even during that time)

 

[Akshat]

Yes 600Million offset for engine was agreed by them but they scammed us just like 1999 mirage upgrade, 40M for no engine swap, no aesa, no significate upgrade or even weapons (just handful of israeli bombs, MICA which was legging behind not just western but russian missiles even during that time)

Again, you are mixing stuff up. They agreed for offsets. But did they say we will revive Kaveri or set up test facilities to fulfill those offsets? Did they sign any contract or agreement that says it? Not negotiations but firm contract?

Similarly, did they hide any of that from us during the Mirage upgrade? Did they increase the price midway, or did they refuse to provide engines after signing the deal, or did they refuse to install the radar or missiles after saying they will do it in the contract? A firm signed deal?

 

[Muthukumar Ponnambalam]

India doesn't have the needed conviction and aggression to make these kind of high end technologically sophisticated products, itself. And hence one can't day dream about INDIGENOUS Kaveri powering Tejas fighters.

So, it would be better to grab this opportunity quickly before it is too late. It is much much better than the deal with GE the backstabber, which renounced India twice in the past.

Also it's no strings attached deal. Looks like France is desperate for the money and the robust Indian market - as‌ the "Make In India" is only "locally manufacturing" products with the "bought" technology and not for developing, nurturing and growing indigenous technology (despite chest thumping about IITs, IISc etc).

And India is desperate about foreign technology.

SO, GO FOR IT INDIA. DITCH GE which only offers 80% TOT and already causing so much delay in delivering F-404 engine citing BS reasons and embrace Safran.

 

[Varaaah]

If France wants to compete with the US in new technologies, its best bet is to tie up with India. Both of them together will collect enough resources to compete with the US. Each of them alone do not have enough money/resources. I think the French are starting to see this.

 

[SuvarPakisareHomos]

Take the deal India. All 3 offers for engine, subs and underwater drones are good. I would also keep GE deal going. No need to cxl that as Tejas is configured to work with it.

 

[linus52]

India stood strong against USA CHINA PAKISTAN for 70 years only because of Russian arms and techs. India must never abandon Russia

Russia not keen on ToT on jet engines