France Offers 100% ToT for AMCA 110kN Engine and Underwater Drones to India, Supports Nuclear Attack Subs Construction

In a move set to significantly boost India's defence capabilities, France has offered full transfer of technology (ToT) for 110 kilo-Newton thrust aircraft engines and underwater drones, and has expressed willingness to support India's construction of nuclear attack submarines.

These developments are expected to be major talking points during the upcoming India-France strategic dialogue between National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and French President Emmanuel Macron's diplomatic advisor Emmanuel Bonne in Paris.

This strategic dialogue comes at a crucial time when India is actively seeking to enhance its naval prowess, with the Indian Navy reportedly approaching the government regarding the need for nuclear attack submarines.

France's offer to assist in this endeavor, along with its offer of full-spectrum autonomous systems for air, surface, and underwater domains, could substantially bolster India's intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities.

Another significant aspect of the dialogue will be the potential collaboration on aircraft engines. Safran, a French company with a history of collaboration with India's space agency ISRO, has offered to jointly design, develop, certify, and produce 110 KN engines for India's future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project.

This offer includes 100% ToT, even for the critical hot engine sections, and promises Indian ownership of the jointly developed engine with the freedom to export it without restrictions.

The strengthening of the India-France strategic defence partnership is seen as pivotal for India's strategic autonomy. The two nations are already collaborating in various defence domains, including the potential acquisition of Rafale-Maritime fighters for India's aircraft carriers and the joint construction of Kalvari class diesel attack submarines.

Beyond defence, the dialogue is expected to cover a wide range of issues of mutual interest, including deepening cooperation in the Indo-Pacific, particularly in the Indian Ocean. The Middle East conflict, the targeting of commercial shipping by Houthis in the Red Sea, the situation in Bangladesh, and the elections in Sri Lanka are also likely to be discussed.

France's comprehensive support for India's defence aspirations, encompassing critical technologies and strategic cooperation, highlights the deepening trust and alignment between the two nations. It also underlines France's commitment to supporting India's rise as a major power in the Indo-Pacific region.

 

[NSR]

A new fighter engine design of 110 kN takes a minimum of 8 to 10 years to fructify.
India and IAF, and posters must know that Safran never produced a fighter engine more powerful than their M88 fighter engine so 110 kN design will be an altogether a new fighter engine development.

India and IAF must keep the competition between Safran, RR, and GE open for the final negotiations on terms and contract values.
India must select a vendor who offers best TOTs free of any restrictions only.
There must be penalty clauses for failure to meet milestones and deliverables.

I would rather that India joins UK, Italy and Japan consortium as a fourth foundational member for 6th Generation fighter with 1/4th cost and get all the two generations ahead technologies.

On the other hand, India must identify all technological barriers and invest heavily in R&D in universities, labs, private and public companies, and even startups.
There are thousands of unemployed engineers in UK and Europe who can help develop the key technologies so India can have its own engine by themselves.

 

[Anant]

Bharat should also keep talks with RR Just to Put pressure on Safran , second being already 80% so called ToT for GE-414 Engine , GE will miss the bus marginally by not transfering Rest 20% may b AKUS revenge from French

More pic may b clear by sept 30 , As NSA Ajit Doval Vist France

Um, the present deal for the F414 ToT is for 80% in order to protect IP, and is pretty much the highest amount of ToT ever offered by the US on aero engines. In any case, even GE has committed to joint IPR and 100% ToT should they be chosen for co-development of the AMCA engine. The same is true for Safran and for RR.

 

[Anant]

I think prototype development won't take more than 3-4 years.

Going from prototype to production will also take time, and that has to be taken into consideration.

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Dassault NOT yet agreed to MoD offer of 50,000 crores for 26 nos. of Rafale-M jets and are expecting closer to $260 millions usd per jet price now... Will IAF purchase $300 millions usd per unit jet of Rafale F4.2 or else, scrap MRFA tender and go for jv with SK's KF21 Boramae project next????

 

[Sandeep]

Hopefully a deal should be done by the end of the year with Safran. This is a critical engine that India needs for the AMCA but also needs to learn how to design, develop and manufacture the engine indigenously so that in future we can advance what we have learnt in future engine products. We need to know more about the science, engineering and metallurgy involved which is the most important education we will ever get.

 

[Anonymus]

I think prototype development won't take more than 3-4 years.

he wrote development cycle which include prototype construction + testing in testing facilities + testing on plane + integration on jet and again few testing.

 

[Sandeep]

French don't have any engine anywhere even close what they are offering. Neither they have the technology. They want the Indian government to invest on the research and development of the engine. The engine will be ready in 2032 to 2036 timeline. Instead of the French offer, far better will be to invest on local companies and fund them to do the research and recruit some retired engineers from GE, RR, sukhoi, mig.

That’s exactly what India needs to do. The sad reality is that even if we funded any private or government agency or joint venture to develop an engine they won’t be able to do it without foreign help because we lack the scientific knowledge, engineering and metallurgy that’s involved in making it not to mention the time it will take to develop it and with no guarantee of success. This deal is better because it addresses all of the issues and problems and it’s the best deal that India will ever get.

 

[Anonymus]

India stood strong against USA CHINA PAKISTAN for 70 years only because of Russian arms and techs. India must never abandon Russia

true but at those times Russian techs were comparable to west one but in 2024 there techs are now outdated although they have capabilities to make very good and efficient engines but there main problem is fund crunch + in 2024 scenario Russian are heavily sanctioned so any co development of technology with them is almost impossible + India can't fully trust America over any technology & Britain being pet of America same goes for them also so other than French we have no other option left.
Meanwhile India is not abandoning Russia we are procuring rifles and ads from them any product which Russia is good at surely India will consider it.

 

[Amit]

There are many things which need to be clear what would be the training cost etc? Prima facia this deal looks good but there are many catch inside so we need to be very clear on all parameters before we seal any deal...these should not be a tactic to just get deals eg. they Got the Rafale deal but till now no investment happened from Safran to India and they are delaying..

 

[Instant Karma]

That’s exactly what India needs to do. The sad reality is that even if we funded any private or government agency or joint venture to develop an engine they won’t be able to do it without foreign help because we lack the scientific knowledge, engineering and metallurgy that’s involved in making it not to mention the time it will take to develop it and with no guarantee of success. This deal is better because it addresses all of the issues and problems and it’s the best deal that India will ever get.

We already possess all the technology to build our own engines except the know how to build the blades of the engine. MIDHANI has already mastered the knowledge of the alloy for building the engine. HAL is already building a lot of engines for helicopters and jaguar fighters. BEL is already building a lot of electronics for the engine. ISRO and BDL have a lot of experience in building high thrust engines for satellite vehicles and missiles. Brahmos develop a lot of technology for high thrust engines. Some of the private sector companies are overhauling the engines of commercial planes. We can combine the knowledge of all these organizations and can build a good engine. We already have the knowledge of building kaveri, AL 31 and RD 33 engines.

The only thing we lacking is a person who can bring all these organizations together and coordinate with all of them. This is at present not possible due to the ego problems of the people who are entrusted with the job of developing the Indegenous engine.
they don't want to loose their hierarchy.

 

[Sandeep]

We already possess all the technology to build our own engines except the know how to build the blades of the engine. MIDHANI has already mastered the knowledge of the alloy for building the engine. HAL is already building a lot of engines for helicopters and jaguar fighters. BEL is already building a lot of electronics for the engine. ISRO and BDL have a lot of experience in building high thrust engines for satellite vehicles and missiles. Brahmos develop a lot of technology for high thrust engines. Some of the private sector companies are overhauling the engines of commercial planes. We can combine the knowledge of all these organizations and can build a good engine. We already have the knowledge of building kaveri, AL 31 and RD 33 engines.

The only thing we lacking is a person who can bring all these organizations together and coordinate with all of them. This is at present not possible due to the ego problems of the people who are entrusted with the job of developing the Indegenous engine.
they don't want to loose their hierarchy.

The problem we have is that we only have parts of knowledge of AL31, RD33 etc but never 100% of the technology which can’t be used individually or mix and match on an indigenous engine. Developing something is only 1 step but testing it out on a jet is the difficult part where we have mostly failed on because after knowing about some of the technology then there’s the engineering, electrical and piping sections which plays a part. Also getting small to medium companies to invest and bring many companies and their own interests together never works.

 

[Sunil Choan]

As i said earlier it will b European country but Not US , most likely US will Return empty hand whether it is Naval Fighter jet MRFA or Aero-Engine development or AMCA project consultant French have great chance From 26 Rafale M.MRFA to Aero-Engine development plus same Engine (110 kN )can b Integrated on Indian Rafale

Need to expedite development within 3-5 yrs not longer plus Kaveri engine development handed to private company with time frame and cost

 

[sanket]

Um, the present deal for the F414 ToT is for 80% in order to protect IP, and is pretty much the highest amount of ToT ever offered by the US on aero engines. In any case, even GE has committed to joint IPR and 100% ToT should they be chosen for co-development of the AMCA engine. The same is true for Safran and for RR.

how it will b 100% ToT, Bharat want some Tech , Most of the tech have developed by GTRE/DRDO, Most Likely it is hot core section .Though AMCA Engine will b developed from Scratch ,while GE is pushing its GE-414 as base for 110 kN Engine development how will they Transfer 100% ToT , a Engine which is already develped How will they share IPR with GTRE.. While one which Safran & RR is on offer will have work share agreement with GTRE . Both (GTRE & RR/Safran ) will develop Resp section of Engine & Tech. Till date GE havent committed to Joint IPR & ToT if u have source pl share it , plus No Restriction on Export . Only Question is what will Safran charge for developemnt of certain Tech & Most important The Entire cost of the project of AMCA Engine . Engine components has to manufactured in Bharat ,with complete Eco-system developed Locally / Indigenously

 

[Girish Tyagi]

Going for American engine for AMCA would means AMCA will never see the light of the day. US would delay it so much that India would have no choice to buy US plans. India must sign contract with Safron as France is also looking to decouple from US and India/France can be a very good co-partner for future tech development.
US as friend is far more dangerous then being enemy

 

[Akshat]

Going from prototype to production will also take time, and that has to be taken into consideration.

AMCA itself will take far more time. And then there will be mk2.

 

[Anant]

AMCA itself will take far more time. And then there will be mk2.

Quite true. Very optimistically, I see AMCA entering production in 2035-36, though the realist in me says 2038-40.

 

[Akshat]

There are many things which need to be clear what would be the training cost etc? Prima facia this deal looks good but there are many catch inside so we need to be very clear on all parameters before we seal any deal...these should not be a tactic to just get deals eg. they Got the Rafale deal but till now no investment happened from Safran to India and they are delaying..

All offsets and ToT regarding Rafale have already been completed by the concerned vendors.

 

[Akshat]

Quite true. Very optimistically, I see AMCA entering production in 2035-36, though the realist in me says 2038-40.

The realist in you seem over optimistic bro. Assuming HAL and ADA keep leading the project, I don’t see AMCA mk1 getting inducted even by 2045.

 

[Mrityunjay Shrivastav]

All offsets and ToT regarding Rafale have already been completed by the concerned vendors.

did they revived kaveri or build a land based test bed even?

 

[M S Chatterji]

Great. Now GOI should hurry and sign the contract asap. Development cycle will take 10 years. TOT is very important as this 110KN engines will run till 2060s.

A challenge to GE and US for its deliberate delay on supply of GE engines.