GTRE Seeks At Least $4.5 Billion for 110-120kN AMCA Engine Development, Citing Extensive R&D, Testing, and Validation Process

The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a laboratory under India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has announced that it requires a minimum of $4.5 billion (approximately ₹37,500 crore) to develop a next-generation engine for the country's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fighter jet program. This was stated by Dr. SV Ramana Murty, Director of GTRE.

The new engine, designed to produce a thrust of 110-120 kilonewtons (kN), represents a significant technological leap for India. This level of thrust is comparable to engines used in advanced fighter jets like the Eurofighter Typhoon (which uses the EJ200 engine) and the Dassault Rafale (which uses the Snecma M88 engine). The proposed investment reflects the complexity of creating such a powerful and sophisticated engine.

The engine is planned to feature several key improvements. These include a better thrust-to-weight ratio (meaning more power for its size), greater fuel efficiency (allowing for longer flight times), increased durability, and potentially some features to reduce the aircraft's radar signature. These characteristics are essential for a modern combat aircraft to be effective.

A substantial amount of the funding will be dedicated to research and development (R&D). This phase includes the initial design, the creation of prototypes, and rigorous testing under a wide range of simulated flight conditions. The requested sum also includes the set up for making the engine, including the advanced manufacturing process for the complex parts. Moreover, there will be the test set up for entire trials of engine.

Beyond initial development and production, the budget also covers crucial steps like fitting the engine into the AMCA aircraft, conducting extensive flight tests, and achieving the required certifications to ensure the engine is safe and ready for operational use. The successful development of this engine is critical for India's strategic autonomy in defence technology, reducing reliance on foreign suppliers for crucial military hardware.

 

[Pankaj]

First, answer where is Kaveri? The whole India wants to know the actual stage of development of the Kaveri engine and its derivatives. Will any aircraft ever fly with Kaveri engines, or will the whole money go in vain?

 

[kumar]

India is a developing country. We do not have the luxury to just spend money in the name of research and technology development.

Give a worthy product even if it takes more time and money than as originally planned.

Better to go for co-development of a 110kN engine with GE or Safran, give a useful product.

Worthy product will come when we establish test facilities. When will we use test facilities, if not during the development stage?

 

[Arz786]

1. The typical development cost of a new engine, as estimated by Global Engine OEMs, is $2.5-3 billion. In that estimation, engineering efforts are costed at a rate of $100 per hour. The split of material cost and engineering efforts is, say, 50:50 (may be different). That implies 15 million (1.5 crore) man-hours.
2. In India, engineering efforts, on average, would cost $20 per hour in the private sector (may be less in the government sector). Therefore, one would expect that total development could be limited to within $2 billion. GTRE is asking for more than double that amount. I hope there are enough reasons to justify that.

 

[kumar]

First, answer where is Kaveri? The whole India wants to know the actual stage of development of the Kaveri engine and its derivatives. Will any aircraft ever fly with Kaveri engines, or will the whole money go in vain?

Kaveri has been waiting for a test slot for a high-altitude test facility in Russia. It has been over a year now.

 

[vasu gali]

Customize 177S to suit our needs - no point in relying on the West for engines.

 

[kumar]

In a country where people expect international standard results, but can't even invest in test facilities, which sane country will deliver jet engines without test facilities? DRDO has been begging for test facilities for decades now. The latest Kaveri is waiting for a test slot for Russian high altitude test facilities, and has been for more than a year now. When the Chinese, with billions of dollars of investment, have still not mastered 4th gen jet engines, buffoons here expect a miracle with less than a 500 million dollar investment in Kaveri to date.

Even now, Kaveri is awaiting a test slot for a high altitude test facility in Russia, and has been for over a year now.

 

[Abs29]

And what are the successful milestones you are talking about? Do enlighten. How are they supposed to reach that milestone?

Any project, when drafted, has specific milestones. When you reach the first milestone successfully, the funding for the successive phase is released in tranches. Nobody hands over lump sum funding at once. That's the SOP worldwide. The misfortune of GTRE was that it flunked in the first phase itself and exposed severe design flaws in the engine core and materials.

Once it was established that the core design itself was structurally flawed and kept disintegrating, both in static ground tests and flying test beds, it made little sense to fund the development of the second phase when the first phase itself was never satisfactorily achieved.

 

[Pankaj]

Kaveri has been waiting for a test slot for a high-altitude test facility in Russia. It has been over a year now.

After so many years, if we don't have a test facility in India, how could we test AMCA engines on time? Only words, no work, no planning.

Why we fail to use Mig 29 or Il 76 as the flying test bed?

 

[Coat Rain]

It is important to start developing smaller kN engines as well. Once an ecosystem is built, newer engines will be developed faster and will be more cost-effective. Encourage private companies to co-develop sub-25 kN engines. Use the DATRAN development model.

Abhinavji, GTRE was established in 1959. In 66 years of its existence, how many engines are flying in the air, NOT in "Test Beds"? It may be zero or a single-digit figure. Many generations of GTRE scientists have completed 35 to 40 years of service and are now enjoying pensions, but have not seen a single engine capable of powering a "flying" aircraft. The Government of India has provided a lot of facilities like high-quality DRDO townships, a 5-day work week, medical facilities, Kendriya Vidyalayas, huge salaries, and huge pensions, but 90% to 95% of DRDO scientists are lacking in basic "SCIENTIFIC TEMPER". They have joined DRDO organizations like ADA, GTRE, etc. only for "LIFE TIME JOB SECURITY" and "LIFE TIME PENSIONS".

At least for the sake of the defence preparedness of our country, DRDO scientists should "work hard" and deliver results. If DRDO scientists are "incompetent" and cannot deliver desired results, they should "voluntarily resign" after 5 years of service and give that opportunity to others with real "SCIENTIFIC TEMPER" to perform.

There is a lot of latent talent outside DRDO, but entrenched DRDO scientists will not allow them to flower and perform for the country. 90% to 95% of DRDO scientists are worried only about their "take-home salaries" and juicy pensions.

 

[Someshwar Singh Naryal]

I only wish this resolve had been taken by earlier dispensations or governments who were in power at various points in time over the last seven decades. India would have surged ahead in aero tech, past many Western worlds, like ISRO's achievements. Anyways, it's better to be late than never in the league of leading aero tech nations.

 

[Prof. Prodyut Das]

Whoever questions the DRDO and says that this fund must go to a private organization, I only ask one simple question: DRDO made a 49kN dry thrust engine and a wet thrust of 81kN with only 500 million dollars. How much thrust jet engine made by any private companies in India? Now, the second question: If you have to fund, then whom will you fund? The organization that can make an 81kN engine or the company who can make a 2-4kN jet engine? Anybody, please answer.

The question is not in the size. The French ATAR series started with a 8 kN engine that went to 50 kN in 10 yrs. The decider is the deftness in the handling of the project. GTRE has excellent " troops" but who were the knaves or fools who stopped the program after only 3500 hrs of testing. He or they should be hunted out and punished for encouraging the import lobbies.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

The Government of India has provided a lot of facilities like high-quality DRDO townships, a 5-day work week, medical facilities, Kendriya Vidyalayas, huge salaries, and huge pensions, but 90% to 95% of DRDO scientists are lacking in basic "SCIENTIFIC TEMPER". They have joined DRDO organizations like ADA, GTRE, etc. only for "LIFE TIME JOB SECURITY" and "LIFE TIME PENSIONS".

How will these salaries and pensions get the engine developed? We need creation of testing and development infrastructure and project funding to develop engines.

 

[Akshat]

How much funding did they get for kaveri?

More than they could spend buddy. Funds were left over till at least 2017.

 

[sishir]

Give them the money but i have low hopes on govt. Compnies.

Why give money when we are sure they will not reach the engines they are trying to develop.

 

[sishir]

It would be better if any private enterprises comes together and join the program with a foreign vendor. You will get the engines we need. Govt can have a production linked scheme for the company who will deliver the engines.

 

[Akshat]

Just about $326 million, they would have received more had they successfully reached the project milestones and closed them. But alas they didnt. The rest is history

The figure you mentioned is misleading buddy. That figure just takes the actual cost in Rs, and then uses exchange rate from 2020. Truth is, funds were released from 90s onwards. So add in inflation and prevalent exchange rates.

Secondly, a lot of money spent on related projects is not mentioned here. For example, 1000s of crores have been spent on testing infrastructure, but they are shown as separate projects. Say, 1600 crores have been given to GTRE for a test facility in Karnataka, on top of free land (approval was given in 2016 but GTRE has still not finished it).

Then there are offsets. We paid for AL31 engines. You think nothing came out of it? Some tech would surely have come in which can be used for Kaveri, no?

And then there are investments from private or DPSU vendors. Many a times, DRDO places orders and the vendors invest their own money, in the hopes that they will get return if it is ordered. DPSUs invest just because it's a DRDO project.

So the actual money which has been flushed down the drain will be in multiple billions, not what you mentioned. That's just the money given for assembling the prototypes (and maybe also designing the final engine), and testing it. That's like the tip of the iceberg.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

More than they could spend buddy. Funds were left over till at least 2017.

If funds were more than what is required, then where are the High-Altitude Test Facility, Flight Test Bed (FTB)? There are many more missing things. Someone has a detailed thread on Twitter.

We should have roped in more labs and institutions like IISc, IIT Kanpur, etc., PTC, and Bharat Forge, etc. for our engine development, metallurgy, and electronics. This would have led to additional expenditure but would have been worth it.

With the salaries we provide, we don't get the best talent. Still, our dry Kaveri engine has achieved 49 KN of dry thrust. We may have reached there slowly, but it's no small achievement. Also, we jumped to 40-50 KN engine development without working on, say, a 10 or a 20 KN one. We should have done that. At least when we were stuck with Kaveri's slow progress, we should have started with smaller KN engines. More talent would have come into engine development, more and more subsystems and materials would have been developed with a growing ecosystem.

 

[Sandeep]

India will have no choice but to pay it, as developing the advanced technology costs a lot of money. The main benefit is that we can then learn how to develop such advanced technology and be completely independent from foreign control and expensive imports.

 

[ASHOK CARROL]

GTRE under DRDO is manned by engineers and technicians of ITI and does not have merit-based candidates selected from IITs with B.Techs., M.Techs., and PhDs.

It has to be made into a public-private partnership under a professional board as independent directors and appoint a professional CEO of Indian origin with work experience in Lockheed Martin, Pratt and Whitney, or Rolls Royce, and then, with accountability and responsibility, delegated financial powers to set up and acquire the equipment, machines, high-altitude test facility, and flying test bed.

Empowered to hire on contract former or current employees of GE, Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, or even Safran.

Delinked from Babus of MoD and finance, the money required for the project be raised from the market from shareholders to make it a commercial success.

The govt can hold 51% shares and, once successful, reduce to less than 49%.

 

[Anand240]

The Russians have already developed engine with much higher thrust and they are willing to do TOT and JV.

 

[Muthu.Kumar]

India should grant that money with conditions attached. They should be given a strict timeline, failing which they will have to face consequences.

 

[AK S]

Abhinavji, GTRE was established in 1959. In 66 years of its existence, how many engines are flying in the air, NOT in "Test Beds"? It may be zero or a single-digit figure. Many generations of GTRE scientists have completed 35 to 40 years of service and are now enjoying pensions, but have not seen a single engine capable of powering a "flying" aircraft. The Government of India has provided a lot of facilities like high-quality DRDO townships, a 5-day work week, medical facilities, Kendriya Vidyalayas, huge salaries, and huge pensions, but 90% to 95% of DRDO scientists are lacking in basic "SCIENTIFIC TEMPER". They have joined DRDO organizations like ADA, GTRE, etc. only for "LIFE TIME JOB SECURITY" and "LIFE TIME PENSIONS".

At least for the sake of the defence preparedness of our country, DRDO scientists should "work hard" and deliver results. If DRDO scientists are "incompetent" and cannot deliver desired results, they should "voluntarily resign" after 5 years of service and give that opportunity to others with real "SCIENTIFIC TEMPER" to perform.

There is a lot of latent talent outside DRDO, but entrenched DRDO scientists will not allow them to flower and perform for the country. 90% to 95% of DRDO scientists are worried only about their "take-home salaries" and juicy pensions.

You need to invest money, particularly for jet engine. Without that it's not happening. Doesn't matter when we set up the institution. When CCS approves and funds, that's when truly clock starts ticking. We are still waiting to hear for any serious investment in jet engine. Kaveri program was shut in 2007-08 and we are paying for it.

 

[Musa]

GTRE is bluffing, not sure if they can come up with an ordinary engine as well....

 

[AK S]

The question you need to answer yourself is: what is the output from the 500 million dollars (of your claim, which itself is questionable!)? Is the engine even today of any use? Besides claims, has it been proven for use on anything? Even a drone? That's why anyone with common sense will question giving any funds to black holes!

What kind of argument is this? BTW, the actual figure for Kaveri development is $300m at current prices. Refer wiki.

Bhai mere ... Kaveri was shut down in 2007-08 by MoD and IAF. Of course you wont get. Isn't it as simple. As per one of the episodes of DDR, Kavei team sold scraps for fuel for test run. Now think what you are suggesting.

Jet engine requires deeper investments. For kaveri, ideally Govt. should have invested upwards of $3B to have decent chance - as per one estimate of DDR, infra component is about $2-2.5B. China invested over $12B (still counting) and has much bigger military industrial complex with serious reverse engineering efforts, yet they are no where near even the Russian tech.

As for $300m, what we have is an engine which produces 73KN of flat rated stable thrust. It was audited and cleared by Safran in 2018 for limited-envelope flight trial. We didn't wake up even then. Whatever renewed interests we have, it was only due to the dry Kaveri for Ghatak UCAV. MoD hasn't even selected co-development partner for AMCA engine.

Till we invest, we would be where we are - without a fighter jet engine.

 

[Senapati]

Government has fund for aeroengine development to make an engine 110 to 120kN thrustfor AMCA in a span of 10 years.
But are scientists and engineers serious about it.Or just research for data collection publishing papers for PhD and visiting abroad.