GTRE Targets Weight Reduction for 46kN Kaveri Dry Engine with Lighter Alloys as 1180kg Not Viable for Manned Fighter Jets

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is actively working to optimize the Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE), also known as the Kaveri Dry engine.

This non-afterburning engine variant generates 46 kN of thrust but currently weighs approximately 1180 kg, considered heavy for its class, even without an afterburner.

The KDE's weight is a concern because it is comparable to, or even exceeds, the weight of some engines that include afterburners. This could limit its suitability for manned fighter jets where the thrust-to-weight ratio is crucial for optimal performance.

Excess weight can negatively impact a fighter jet's agility, fuel efficiency, and payload capacity. This is a significant factor for potential integration into platforms like the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) where minimizing weight is paramount.

To address this challenge, GTRE is pursuing a weight reduction strategy focused on substituting current materials with lighter alternatives. This involves exploring advanced composites or lighter alloys capable of withstanding the extreme temperatures and stresses of jet engine operation.

The weight reduction plan is being implemented in phases to ensure that modifications do not compromise the engine's structural integrity or performance. This methodical approach allows GTRE to rigorously test and validate each change.

While the engine's current weight may pose challenges for manned fighters, it is less critical for the 13-ton Remotely Piloted Strike Aircraft (RPSA) Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle (UCAV) project, which is the planned platform for the KDE. For unmanned applications, the emphasis can be placed on thrust and endurance rather than minimizing weight for human pilots.

GTRE aims to have the KDE cleared for production once the weight reduction targets are achieved. This process involves not only shedding kilograms but also ensuring the engine remains reliable, efficient, and meets all operational specifications.

The success of this weight reduction effort will be crucial in determining the KDE's viability for a wider range of applications, including potentially powering India's future manned fighter aircraft.

 

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[rcbharatmahan]

GTRE should consult with our ISRO experts and take their help in achieving a new engine which is suitable for AMCA and Tejas aircrafts. ISRO is able to produce cryogenic engines where we were not able to procure them due to sanctions previously.

 

[Senapati]

The weight reduction and integration of afterburner can go together.
Next aim should be Kaveri that is reliable and acceptable weight generating 80kN with after burner cleared for flight test .
GE F404 1036 kg and F414 1110 kg wt.
Kaveri weight is not that much high.

 

[Sommyarup Roy]

Bruh 1180 without afterburner, this engine is not close to any contemporary engine at all.

 

[Harsh]

They will tell you the weight is an issue for the 13 Ton UCAV when the first prototype fails due to weight issues.

 

[sanket]

Question is what is weight of "Afterburner section", second what is weight of kaveri Engine which is producing 73 kN with Afterburner ...........???

 

[Steel Mathi]

They have made the Kaveri engine by making the metal that is already common in India thicker instead of creating a new engine metal. They say that 54 percent of the parts in AL 31 are made with domestic ToT. It is not known which parts they have made domestically. When you look at the condition of the Kaveri, it seems that they have only made nuts, bolts, washers, pipes etc. in AL 31. If they had created something like this, even a normal small company would have made it. It is clearly seen that they have not even produced a metal alloy in the Al 31 engine technology. If they had created Al 31 like that, the weight of the Kaveri engine would not have been this high.

I am absolutely sure that Hindustan Aeronautical limited & PSU is playing politics and deceiving the Indian government.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Godtej should have delivered dry kaveri 47 KN engine in December. No news about it. Looks like it is delayed.

 

[TB]

Bruh 1180 without afterburner, this engine is not close to any contemporary engine at all.

bro only engine's dry weight is mentioned on wikipedia, so we need to work only on metallurgy, it's 150 kg heavier than ge F-404

 

[beencensured]

Bruh 1180 without afterburner, this engine is not close to any contemporary engine at all.

Do not waste time arguing about a hundred kg. It will only affect payload capacity. This is why India has not progressed. It is very unlikely that any aircraft would be loaded anywhere near MTOW. Every little thing is an issue.

 

[beencensured]

Question is what is weight of "Afterburner section", second what is weight of kaveri Engine which is producing 73 kN with Afterburner ...........???

Then you have an afterburner that produces 80kN, which is more power than the current GE F404 engine. Do not get into their psyops, as India has not produced thousands of Kaveri engines.

 

[beencensured]

They have made the Kaveri engine by making the metal that is already common in India thicker instead of creating a new engine metal. They say that 54 percent of the parts in AL 31 are made with domestic ToT. It is not known which parts they have made domestically. When you look at the condition of the Kaveri, it seems that they have only made nuts, bolts, washers, pipes etc. in AL 31. If they had created something like this, even a normal small company would have made it. It is clearly seen that they have not even produced a metal alloy in the Al 31 engine technology. If they had created Al 31 like that, the weight of the Kaveri engine would not have been this high.

I am absolutely sure that Hindustan Aeronautical limited & PSU is playing politics and deceiving the Indian government.

Kaveri is just a prototype cannot expect same weight from prototype when compared to mature manufacturers who made thousands of engines. If in tropical climate it is doing 73kn or 80kn then it is better then the 78kn ge f404 engine as that losses 10-15℅ power in tropical climates and so no MTOW loss.

 

[Superpower Bharat]

I think in wikipedia 1180 kg weight mention is with after burner not without afterburner... Confusion is there only. Till date dry kaveri engine weight not mentioned any where clearly...

 

[Ray]

Bruh 1180 without afterburner, this engine is not close to any contemporary engine at all.

1180 kg is weight of kaveri base model which is turbofan afterburning.
Dry kaveri must be would have been light for sure. Complete specs of dry kaveri is not in public domain so we don't have updated info.
Dry kaveri must be of about ~800kg, May be little more or less.

 

[Aravind Raveendran]

Guess we haven't learned anything about metallurgy even after making russian engines with the so called TOT for decades. Else we would have used the knowledge while making kaveri.
Anyways , we need to use better alloys that not only decrease the weight but also are more efficient.

 

[Rajesh]

Bruh 1180 without afterburner, this engine is not close to any contemporary engine at all.

What ever the specifications we find about kaveri is about the first lot of engines manufactured years back( i think it is 6 nos). The kaveri engine have gone through various technical upgrades in material and manufacturing process from the initial batch. The one made by godrej which have been sent to be tested in a ftb in russia is different from what is mentioned in the wikipedia. Hope they updates the specifications soon when the engine get certified for production.

 

[Shiva]

One has to be wise enough to understand tricks played by rivals to make Kaveri to keep it aside!!!
They often say, thrust to weight ratio, but uses weight of engine. he he.
But the thrust to weight ratio is important and significant only in special conditions of dog fighting and in every possible situatio of dog fight, we need to consider MTOW (this is not weight of engine, but weight of entire aircraft including fuel, weapons etc).
For example, LCA, MTOW is around 13,500 kg.
So, an additional weight of about 100kg in Kaveri when compared to its counter parts like FE-404 is insignificant (just under 1%).
So, this is not at a serious problem.
But these clever people, instead of comparing weight to ratio wth MTOW , they compare just with dry weight of engine and instead of comparing net thrust, they compare total thrust . All this majic calculations is to fool non technical decision makers to prefer foreign imports.

So, any decision to pickup Dry Kaveri is a good choice.

Actually, India should seriously try both versions.
One replace FE engine with Dry Kaveri with after burner
and also, Replacing engines in Rafael with two Dry Kaveri engines.
An additional weight of 200 to 300 kg is not an issue under dog fight conditions.

 

[jagadeesh]

They have made the Kaveri engine by making the metal that is already common in India thicker instead of creating a new engine metal. They say that 54 percent of the parts in AL 31 are made with domestic ToT. It is not known which parts they have made domestically. When you look at the condition of the Kaveri, it seems that they have only made nuts, bolts, washers, pipes etc. in AL 31. If they had created something like this, even a normal small company would have made it. It is clearly seen that they have not even produced a metal alloy in the Al 31 engine technology. If they had created Al 31 like that, the weight of the Kaveri engine would not have been this high.

I am absolutely sure that Hindustan Aeronautical limited & PSU is playing politics and deceiving the Indian government.

First of all the main of pblm tot is that they don't transfer metallurgy ..crucial tech is always kept with them. We are just allowed to produce some components of al-31 we can't even increase %of local components russia won't allow so al-31 just small help most of high tech of al-31 is still with russia hands ..don't al-31 expertise in dev of kaveri . I think we have more knowledge on kaveri than al-31