HAL's New Engine Facility for Indigenous F414 Engines to Begin Production in 2028, Aims for 2 Engines/Month

As India and the United States continue to make progress towards finalizing a deal for the local manufacturing of 99 F-414 engines, India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is making significant strides towards establishing a dedicated production facility.

HAL has successfully secured a suitable site for the facility and is currently developing plans to ensure the production of at least two engines per month at peak capacity. The commencement of operations for the new F-414 production line is anticipated in 2028, with an initial production rate of one engine per month. This rate is planned to steadily increase to two engines per month, effectively aligning with the projected production of 24 Tejas MkII fighter jets annually by 2030-31.

The F-414 engine is a vital component of the Tejas MkII fighter jet, and its domestic manufacturing will considerably bolster India’s self-reliance in the realm of defence production. The agreement with GE Aerospace encompasses the transfer of technology (ToT) to HAL, empowering India to produce these advanced engines within its borders.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has indicated a requirement for approximately 200 Tejas MkII fighter jets by 2039-2040, potentially leading to a subsequent expansion of F-414 engine production. To accommodate this potential increase in demand for Tejas MkII aircraft, HAL has formulated plans to enhance the annual production capacity to 30 units.

The successful conclusion of the F-414 engine manufacturing deal will be a landmark achievement for India's defense industry. It will not only enhance self-sufficiency but also foster the development of high-tech manufacturing capabilities in the country.

 

[Swapy]

HAL and schedules don't belong together in the same context, since that word doesn't exist for them.

Bring engines from USA then start blaming HAL. These are not paper plane to fly w/o engines.

 

[Swapy]

2 GE414s, may not be enough if you add AMCA TEDBF say getting produced by 2035…Both AMCA and TEDBF are twin engined…

Say in 2035 we need 24 Tejas Mk2 + 12 AMCA Mk1 + 12 TEDBF + some spares and stock engines, we need a capacity of 72-80 engines per year or 6-7 per month, a 3.5X increase from the current plan! Hopefully achievable if the line starts producing 2 per month in 2028…

Wrong Mathematics. First of all India don't need more than 60+TEDBF as we have only 2-3 AC would be operational in 2035. Second - you must talking about squadron instead of only 24 nos of Tejas MK2. Reality is IAF doesn't have budgetary allocation to produce these more than 24 Jet annually. addition to these they want MRFA Jet. Unlike HAL, Foreign companies will not wait for money after delivery. In contract normally have penalty clause when delay in money. India didn't apply penalty on late delivery of Rafale because they were happy with late delivery Vis a vis delay in payment.
E.g. India give order of F21 to LM. LM can produce 100 F21 in year. but whether IAF can pay all money together? Answer is 'NO'.
Are you aware how much IAF's dues are pending to HAL ? Are you expecting HAL should use their own money to purchase Raw material and company from Private companies?
If USA is delaying engines then what will HAL do? why don't IAF purchase of the shelf engines directly from GE and give it to HAL to integrate. As HAL is just integrator of many of components.

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Convert 97 Mk1A orders to Mk1B and get the fastest engine available for the same.

It will take MINIMUM 8 years for HAL to change OEM engines into Tejas as it becomes a NEW design altogether! ALSO, there are no decent SEF jet engines available anywhere is whole western countries, for Tejas other than GEF404 and GEF414 ones!! RD93MA are causing a lot of JF17 crashes recently... EJ200 are certified for TEF jets only!

 

[Anant]

Wrong Mathematics. First of all India don't need more than 60+TEDBF as we have only 2-3 AC would be operational in 2035. Second - you must talking about squadron instead of only 24 nos of Tejas MK2. Reality is IAF doesn't have budgetary allocation to produce these more than 24 Jet annually. addition to these they want MRFA Jet. Unlike HAL, Foreign companies will not wait for money after delivery. In contract normally have penalty clause when delay in money. India didn't apply penalty on late delivery of Rafale because they were happy with late delivery Vis a vis delay in payment.
E.g. India give order of F21 to LM. LM can produce 100 F21 in year. but whether IAF can pay all money together? Answer is 'NO'.
Are you aware how much IAF's dues are pending to HAL ? Are you expecting HAL should use their own money to purchase Raw material and company from Private companies?
If USA is delaying engines then what will HAL do? why don't IAF purchase of the shelf engines directly from GE and give it to HAL to integrate. As HAL is just integrator of many of components.

2 carrier air wings means atleat 52 aircraft just for use on the carriers. Add some 8-10 trainers to that. Add 10-12 attrition replacements and reserves. That itself takes the number up to 70-74 aircraft.

Now, the Navy also wants three shore-based naval strike squadrons to act in anti-ship roles. This is presently handled by a Su-30MKI squadron and the sole Jaguar IM squadron. These shore based squadrons add another 60 aircraft. Add 10-12 trainers, plus around 10-12 attrition replacements. That takes this number up to 80-84 aircraft.

Now, add those up, and the requirement becomes around 150-160 aircraft. Add in a third carrier air wing (assuming the Rafale Ms are repurposed with the IAF or become a fourth proposed naval strike squadron), and the number of aircraft suddenly reaches around 175.

 

[Anant]

Bring engines from USA then start blaming HAL. These are not paper plane to fly w/o engines.

HAL's deliveries of older Tejas aircraft, where the engines were available, has been extremely delayed as well. Moreover, the first Tejas Mk 1A actually had an engine available, and was supposed to be delivered before March 31 this year (never mind the deadlines crossed earlier). Has it been delivered yet? NO!

Not saying the blame is solely with HAL. GE and others also shoulder the blame, but the majority of it is in HAL's plate.

 

[Anant]

Non sense. You must smell the coffee. Tejas mk2 design prototype is almost ready production will start around 2028-29 with Initial batch of 12-16 Jets per year. As supply strengthen it will touch to 24 jet in 2030. ORCA and TEDBF will be commission from 2032 onwards. We can not replace RD33 engine with GE404/GE414 engine. Integration of these engine will bring Tejas MK1A and MK2 again on drawing board. It will take couple of years with DRDO/ADA and then it will come to HAL for production. India can't afford to close Tejas program as they are indigenous and per unit cost is very less compare to imported Jet. ORCA's cost would be higher as ORCA is twin engine and bigger then Tejas. PAF inducted 150+ JF17 jet and China have 300+ J10 jet. They can produce these in large number due to less cost of production of these Jets.
Tejas MK2 demand is 200+ and MK1A demand is 220+. We simply can't scrap these program. Hope you get it. Engine delay is strategy of USA pushover for F21 and F15EX for IAF. As we know IAF love for imported Jets.

Production will not start before 2032 at the earliest. The jet needs to be tested thoroughly before production can begin, which takes atleast 4-5 years. Moreover, the folks at HAL claim they will make 16 Tejas Mk 1/1A deliveries a year, and they end up delivering 4-6. So, if they claim 16 Tejas Mk 2 deliveries annually, they won't manage more than 6-8 at best unless they can change something significant.

Now, there is no ORCA, and there will be no ORCA. It simply makes zero sense to develop it. Coming to TEDBF, assuming funding is given by March next year, production might begin around 2034 or so.

Finally, the IAF likes imported jets, but as it stands today, even with indigenous programs, maintaining the fleet strength means something like MRFA is a necessity.

Finally, as for your claim that the US is deliberately delaying engines, that may be the case, but HAL also has a fault there. The F404 variant used on the Tejas (the F404-IN20) is used only on the Tejas, and therefore requires a partially separate production line. Engine orders in large numbers (large enough to justify a different production line) were given quite late, and coupled with Covid and supply chains globally going for a toss (thanks to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Israel's campaign against the Hamas terrorists) has led to more delays.

 

[Hey]

HAL's deliveries of older Tejas aircraft, where the engines were available, has been extremely delayed as well. Moreover, the first Tejas Mk 1A actually had an engine available, and was supposed to be delivered before March 31 this year (never mind the deadlines crossed earlier). Has it been delivered yet? NO!

Not saying the blame is solely with HAL. GE and others also shoulder the blame, but the majority of it is in HAL's plate.

In case of MK1A , HAL can't be blamed it is going through software changes asked by AIRFORCE... For trainers & Mk1 FOC jets , HAL should be blamed...

All jet programs are late , F-15EX fresh deliveries are late , Boeing Trainers delivery fresh delivery are late , F-35 delivery is late...

Can't make one organisation a scapegoat... We didn't give orders of Mk1A earlier & due to this GE paused production of F404 engines & their MSMEs have shifted to other projects , same thing happened in case of Mirage & C-17 , production rukne k baad order krte h hum...

We should have gone with local assembly of F404 just like Sweden & S Korea have been doing...

Only Hurjet from Turkey which is in prototype phase is using F404 Engines..

AIRFORCE at the time of signing of deal knew the situation but didn't ask GOI for local production.. I won't be surprised if the sep deadline will be missed..

 

[Akshat]

Non sense. You must smell the coffee. Tejas mk2 design prototype is almost ready production will start around 2028-29 with Initial batch of 12-16 Jets per year. As supply strengthen it will touch to 24 jet in 2030. ORCA and TEDBF will be commission from 2032 onwards. We can not replace RD33 engine with GE404/GE414 engine. Integration of these engine will bring Tejas MK1A and MK2 again on drawing board. It will take couple of years with DRDO/ADA and then it will come to HAL for production. India can't afford to close Tejas program as they are indigenous and per unit cost is very less compare to imported Jet. ORCA's cost would be higher as ORCA is twin engine and bigger then Tejas. PAF inducted 150+ JF17 jet and China have 300+ J10 jet. They can produce these in large number due to less cost of production of these Jets.
Tejas MK2 demand is 200+ and MK1A demand is 220+. We simply can't scrap these program. Hope you get it. Engine delay is strategy of USA pushover for F21 and F15EX for IAF. As we know IAF love for imported Jets.

quite a few inaccuracies there.

1. Tejas mk2 wont come before 2040 at the earliest (FOC). The original schedule for mass production was 2016. So you can see how fast the program is moving. It is taking even longer than Tejas itself. So no chance of mass production till 2040 in the best case scenario. Can be 2050 if it goes even worse.

2. As per the IAF, demand for mk2 is of 6 squadrons, and that was when we were ordering only 123 mk1/mk1a. Usually a squadron has 18 or up to 20 planes. So that makes it 120 at best.

3. Cost of mk1a is close to the cost of made in India su 30 mki and made in France Rafale jets. So no, it’s not cheap at all when compared to foreign planes.

 

[Swapy]

Production will not start before 2032 at the earliest. The jet needs to be tested thoroughly before production can begin, which takes atleast 4-5 years. Moreover, the folks at HAL claim they will make 16 Tejas Mk 1/1A deliveries a year, and they end up delivering 4-6. So, if they claim 16 Tejas Mk 2 deliveries annually, they won't manage more than 6-8 at best unless they can change something significant.

Now, there is no ORCA, and there will be no ORCA. It simply makes zero sense to develop it. Coming to TEDBF, assuming funding is given by March next year, production might begin around 2034 or so.

Finally, the IAF likes imported jets, but as it stands today, even with indigenous programs, maintaining the fleet strength means something like MRFA is a necessity.

Finally, as for your claim that the US is deliberately delaying engines, that may be the case, but HAL also has a fault there. The F404 variant used on the Tejas (the F404-IN20) is used only on the Tejas, and therefore requires a partially separate production line. Engine orders in large numbers (large enough to justify a different production line) were given quite late, and coupled with Covid and supply chains globally going for a toss (thanks to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Israel's campaign against the Hamas terrorists) has led to more delays.

IAF selected F404-IN20 because it is only variant fitted in that space and have thrust around 84KN. Unless and until getting bigger order no company will gave the order of engines. According to US, Supply issue is because of Russia and Ukraine war. For whole lifecycle of Jet it atleast need 2-3 engines. But all of them can't order together. According to contract engines delivery should start from January or some of even before that. But how many engines has delivered till now?
For TEDBF, Fund has not released so it is still on paper and not even went to design phase. ORCA is nothing but same as TEDBF except Navi landing gear and sensors. Without funding and confirm order no company start working on it. HAL is not R&D partner but only production partner so their role is not exist in initial phase.
MRFA is needed, I have agreed on it. But most possibility of selection of Rafale will cost around 30 bl$ for 114 Jet. Whether this is economical when we see the budget allocation? Once MRFA order given then other all indigenous jet program will never materialized. Our defense budget is not 150 bln $. We have other requirement also like submarine, AC, FRCV and many more.
For Tejas, HAL is just integrator. Most of the component has outsourced and developed by private companies. Now don't start blaming them also. Apart from HAL no company have experience in developing fighter Jets. Neither company willing to pour money in R&D. In AMCA, We have experiencing these things. So AMCA project will also go to HAL.
Private companies only look for easy money and profit. Whether they can bear frequent changes demand from IAF ? Can conduct and provide excessive testing platform? Answer is "No". they can only look for ToT from OEM and assemble the component as a joint partner.

 

[Akshat]

In case of MK1A , HAL can't be blamed it is going through software changes asked by AIRFORCE... For trainers & Mk1 FOC jets , HAL should be blamed...

All jet programs are late , F-15EX fresh deliveries are late , Boeing Trainers delivery fresh delivery are late , F-35 delivery is late...

Can't make one organisation a scapegoat... We didn't give orders of Mk1A earlier & due to this GE paused production of F404 engines & their MSMEs have shifted to other projects , same thing happened in case of Mirage & C-17 , production rukne k baad order krte h hum...

We should have gone with local assembly of F404 just like Sweden & S Korea have been doing...

Only Hurjet from Turkey which is in prototype phase is using F404 Engines..

AIRFORCE at the time of signing of deal knew the situation but didn't ask GOI for local production.. I won't be surprised if the sep deadline will be missed..

Please get your facts right bro.

1. There were no software changes asked for by the airforce. Not a single one. Go and listen to HAL’s management comments from May last year. Then itself they had decided that mk1a won’t be delivered on time. IAF, till September, was kept in dark. This ‘changes’ shagufa is only an attempt by HAL to mask its own faults. I can challenge you, try and show us a single official saying that IAF ever asked for any last minute changes.

2. While many others are getting delayed, also look at their track record. Over 80% of the targeted deliveries are happening for F35. Probably even over 90%. But for HAL that number has stayed below 40% for almost a decade now.

3. Again, go and check HAL’s delivery record. MoD placed the order of mk1a to the perfection. If HAL had delivered all aircrafts on schedule, then they would have delivered mk1a on time as per the contract. So the orders were placed so that HAL can finish Tejas, deliver the trainers and then start mk1a on time. If the orders were placed any earlier, then also HAL wouldn’t have been able to deliver the jets. In fact, GE had slowed down the production in 2016 itself (I don’t have sources now). At that time even FOC hadn’t been given to Tejas.

 

[Swapy]

2 carrier air wings means atleat 52 aircraft just for use on the carriers. Add some 8-10 trainers to that. Add 10-12 attrition replacements and reserves. That itself takes the number up to 70-74 aircraft.

Now, the Navy also wants three shore-based naval strike squadrons to act in anti-ship roles. This is presently handled by a Su-30MKI squadron and the sole Jaguar IM squadron. These shore based squadrons add another 60 aircraft. Add 10-12 trainers, plus around 10-12 attrition replacements. That takes this number up to 80-84 aircraft.

Now, add those up, and the requirement becomes around 150-160 aircraft. Add in a third carrier air wing (assuming the Rafale Ms are repurposed with the IAF or become a fourth proposed naval strike squadron), and the number of aircraft suddenly reaches around 175.

Have you forgot IN already acquired 45 Mig29 for AC? 26 Rafale order is about to place this year. 71 Jets in total. For Shore based they have neither order any aircrafts. IN is looking for max 100 TEDBF in 2035 also they will replace existing Mig29. So as of now they don't have demand 150+ TEDBF requirement.
AC accommodate total26-30 asset. All of them are not fighter Jet. They will have some helos, AWR, also trainers. India currently have 2 AC of around 45000 tons. So you maths are not correct. Yes some of Jet can be keep on reserve but it will not go beyond 70 Jets for 2 AC.

 

[Kadiwa Reyes]

BEST SOLUTION REALLY. SCRAP and CANCEL ALL Tejas programs of ADA HAL on GE engines. Kickstart a super fastracked ORCA-TEF jets program using base Tejas-Naval-TEF jet designs using twin engines of RD33MK Sea Wasp ones made in India by HAL Khoraput factory! Another ORCA to replace Jaguars can be designed on New-Marut HF42 TEF jet designs of HAL too on same engines...

Same wasted decisions as that of the Americans who spends billions on one item only to cancel it later.

 

[De_SECULARISED]

Non sense. You must smell the coffee. Tejas mk2 design prototype is almost ready production will start around 2028-29 with Initial batch of 12-16 Jets per year. As supply strengthen it will touch to 24 jet in 2030. ORCA and TEDBF will be commission from 2032 onwards. We can not replace RD33 engine with GE404/GE414 engine. Integration of these engine will bring Tejas MK1A and MK2 again on drawing board. It will take couple of years with DRDO/ADA and then it will come to HAL for production. India can't afford to close Tejas program as they are indigenous and per unit cost is very less compare to imported Jet. ORCA's cost would be higher as ORCA is twin engine and bigger then Tejas. PAF inducted 150+ JF17 jet and China have 300+ J10 jet. They can produce these in large number due to less cost of production of these Jets.
Tejas MK2 demand is 200+ and MK1A demand is 220+. We simply can't scrap these program. Hope you get it. Engine delay is strategy of USA pushover for F21 and F15EX for IAF. As we know IAF love for imported Jets.

Not asking to stop MK2s, but atleast they should go for alternative engine feasibility studies. Coz US will definitely try to put brakes.

 

[Anant]

Have you forgot IN already acquired 45 Mig29 for AC? 26 Rafale order is about to place this year. 71 Jets in total. For Shore based they have neither order any aircrafts. IN is looking for max 100 TEDBF in 2035 also they will replace existing Mig29. So as of now they don't have demand 150+ TEDBF requirement.
AC accommodate total26-30 asset. All of them are not fighter Jet. They will have some helos, AWR, also trainers. India currently have 2 AC of around 45000 tons. So you maths are not correct. Yes some of Jet can be keep on reserve but it will not go beyond 70 Jets for 2 AC.

The MiG-29Ks are planned for retirement in 2035-38, which means they will not be a factor in the next generation of Indian carrier-borne aircraft.

Secondly, the Navy has a requirement for shore-based naval strike squadrons. As of today, this is being done through one Su-30MKI squadron and the single squadron operating Jaguar IMs. However, with the dwindling strength of the IAF, it has become challenging to make these two squadrons available for the Navy, and it is also felt that this capability will no longer be available with the IAF in a few years. That means the Navy retains the requirement for atleast three naval strike squadrons (one for the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and one based along each coast).

Now, both our present carriers can carry 36 air assets, which is optimally a mix of 26 fighters and 10 helicopters. That, by itself, makes 52 aircraft for two full carrier air wings. You also need trainers in roughly a 1:5 or 1:6 ratio, which means 8-10 trainers, and you further need, on average, a minimum of 15% attrition replacement pool.

Moreover, with IAC-II poised for approval in the near future, there will be the requirement for another carrier air wing by the time the TEDBF is in production. Assuming one of them is given to the Rafale M, that still leaves you with two air wings.

All in all, we are definitely looking for a fleet of 120-150 aircraft, with the higher number being the closer number. The only alternative scenario is that the Navy decides not to get the naval strike squadrons (a highly unlikely scenario), in which case, the production run can come down to about 70 aircraft for two air wings or 100 aircraft for three air wings (assuming the Rafale M is used for other purposes or is put up as the sole naval strike squadron).

 

[Anant]

IAF selected F404-IN20 because it is only variant fitted in that space and have thrust around 84KN. Unless and until getting bigger order no company will gave the order of engines. According to US, Supply issue is because of Russia and Ukraine war. For whole lifecycle of Jet it atleast need 2-3 engines. But all of them can't order together. According to contract engines delivery should start from January or some of even before that. But how many engines has delivered till now?
For TEDBF, Fund has not released so it is still on paper and not even went to design phase. ORCA is nothing but same as TEDBF except Navi landing gear and sensors. Without funding and confirm order no company start working on it. HAL is not R&D partner but only production partner so their role is not exist in initial phase.
MRFA is needed, I have agreed on it. But most possibility of selection of Rafale will cost around 30 bl$ for 114 Jet. Whether this is economical when we see the budget allocation? Once MRFA order given then other all indigenous jet program will never materialized. Our defense budget is not 150 bln $. We have other requirement also like submarine, AC, FRCV and many more.
For Tejas, HAL is just integrator. Most of the component has outsourced and developed by private companies. Now don't start blaming them also. Apart from HAL no company have experience in developing fighter Jets. Neither company willing to pour money in R&D. In AMCA, We have experiencing these things. So AMCA project will also go to HAL.
Private companies only look for easy money and profit. Whether they can bear frequent changes demand from IAF ? Can conduct and provide excessive testing platform? Answer is "No". they can only look for ToT from OEM and assemble the component as a joint partner.

1. I did mention that part of the delay is due to supply chain disruptions courtesy of present conflicts.

2. The first two batches of engines, ordered earlier on, was delivered. Even for jets using these engines, deliveries eere extremely delayed. It was the large order in August 2021 that has been delayed. When you consider just when the present wars began, you can see why that is the case.

3. I also mentioned that one assumes funding for TEDBF will be sanctioned in the future. The best case scenario (which I used to illustrate the best possible situation) is for funds to be sanctioned by March, though a more likely timeline is late 2025 or early 2026, once the type completes the CDR.

4. If you think the Rafale is too expensive, show me a comparable aircraft that costs less. I am not trying to be a Dassault salesman, but we need to reach a decision on MRFA quickly rather than twiddling our thumbs.

5. HAL is the lead integrator. That also means they shoulder most of the blame for delays. As the integrator, it is part of their responsibilities to ensure suppliers can deliver on time. When the F-15 or F-35 gets delayed, it is Boeing or LM that is blamed, not the individual component manufacturer.

6. Private companies are going to be motivated by profit. That is just how private enterprise works. However, as we are seeing, they are alap willing to invest money as long as they see some good return from it. The government can invest large amounts, and even if it doesn't pay off, it's fine. Private companies cannot do that. Give them some hope of getting their money back and making some profit, and they will invest. Just look at Kalyani. They have invested a fair bit of money becaude they are seeing some returns from it. Similarly, Tata has invested (in assembling for now, but they too have offered to invest more). There are many such examples.

 

[subrat beura]

Aquire some F21 under MFRA so that F414 ToT will be done soon & also F404 will have quick delivery

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Not asking to stop MK2s, but atleast they should go for alternative engine feasibility studies. Coz US will definitely try to put brakes.

New engine means new jet Sirji. It takes another 8 years for HAL to FOC it. That is why I am saying just scrap SEF and go for ORCA TEF if USA blocks GE engines at all!

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Same wasted decisions as that of the Americans who spends billions on one item only to cancel it later.

USA is completely controlled by military industrial complex mafia Deep State! They killed JFK.. This is carrot and stick - if we do not buy F21 or F15EX then they will not give GE engines to us - JUST WAIT AND SEE!!!!

 

[Ajju]

Skill development of young engineers and hands on job experience of HAL and Airforce can turn this two numbers to 20 indeed and scaling up 30 a month.

A slow start steady approach in these manner will turn the tables, to scale high. Let GE start the facility.

 

[linus52]

Very good news from the newly appointed CEO of HAL. They have already started building the new production line for GE 414. 2028 will be the year for the delivery of the first F414 engine.

BS has no value since GE will determine supply and GE has proved to be unreliable. Finish developing Kaveri Stupid