IAF Endorses Foreign JV in AMCA Engine Development for Initial Boost, with Long-Term Goal of Complete Indigenous Production

In a significant development for India's indigenous fighter jet program, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has expressed strong support for a collaborative approach to developing the engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

While the ultimate goal remains complete indigenous production, the strategy now involves partnering with a foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) to design the engine's core, while Indian scientists and engineers focus on developing the low-pressure (LP) side.

This strategic shift aims to leverage international expertise for the more complex aspects of jet engine development, specifically the combustor core and high-pressure components, which are critical for performance and efficiency.

By partnering with a foreign OEM, India can benefit from advanced technologies and accelerate the AMCA program while simultaneously building its own manufacturing and design capabilities.

The IAF emphasizes a "learn alongside" approach, where Indian engineers will gain valuable insights and skills through collaboration with the foreign entity. This knowledge transfer is crucial for India to develop its own expertise in critical areas of jet engine technology.

A key aspect of this partnership is the commitment to achieving 100% localization of the core engine in the long term. This goal is vital not only for the AMCA program but also for the broader aerospace industry in India. It addresses several fundamental challenges:

• Material science: Developing the capacity to produce advanced materials that can withstand the extreme temperatures and pressures within a jet engine core is essential for reducing dependence on foreign supply chains.
• Manufacturing techniques: Mastering the intricate, precision manufacturing processes required for engine cores will elevate India's manufacturing sector and potentially benefit other industries.
• Technology transfer: Securing comprehensive technology transfer will enable India not only to produce the current generation of engines but also to drive future innovations in engine technology.

While this partnership might initially appear to deviate from the goal of complete self-reliance, it is a calculated move towards achieving full indigenous capability.

By starting with a joint venture for the core engine, India can overcome significant technological hurdles, learn from its partner, and gradually take over all aspects of engine production.

This decision has sparked discussions among defence analysts and on social media platforms like X, where there seems to be a consensus that developing a completely indigenous fighter jet engine within the required timelines for the AMCA Mk2 is a significant challenge.

This sentiment reflects an acknowledgment of existing knowledge gaps and the necessity of international collaboration to meet the demanding performance expectations of modern warfare.

By strategically leveraging foreign expertise while remaining committed to long-term indigenous development, India is taking a pragmatic approach to building a robust and self-reliant aerospace industry.

 

[R. Singh]

First make engine for AMCA otherwise it meet Tejas-1A fate ! Cart before Horse was big big mistake committed by ADA+HAL +GTRE !

 

[sanket]

That's good news. The IAF supporting all indigenous fighter jet projects is a very positive development. Unlike the Tejas Mk1A & Tejas Mk2, where a US engine is being used, even for AMCA Mk1, it looks like the IAF is more confident in indigenous development. Now, a 20% collaboration with similar investment from a foreign OEM, where Safran is the frontrunner, and they too have a similar project called FCAS. A common core for both projects is likely to be developed, and the same engine can be integrated into Rafale too, whether purchased under MRFA or for Rafale M and the 36 Air Force version. This is the advantage if Safran is selected for the engine development project.

 

[Shiva]

What nonsense is this? Can't Indian scientists design it and then use one foreign company to make those critical components and hand them over to India? Why is designing things shifted to another country? Why does design really need a foreign company? It is just that we need some critical components. India can design them first in various dimensions and then order them in bulk. Once we get that, then depending on them, design the remaining parts for the engine, and then once the engine is designed, take it to the test bed and then identify its characteristics and then do a vibration test using substructure tests or similar tests to figure out the designing parameters for the remaining tests. Why does design require the involvement of another country?

India should focus on guessing initial core parts and then prepare them with various dimensions and then bulk-produce them using a trusted foreign partner that has the capacity to produce quickly. And then use it and start designing the remaining parts of the engine and then bulk-produce them. This will give Indian designing and production units expertise and a learning experience in bulk-producing engines. This will also pave a way to produce more engines and aircraft per annum as per long-term war needs.

Have you forgotten that China already acquired the technology to bulk-produce UAVs and also recently acquired a foreign company that is very suitable for engine production??!! The combination of these two will result in bulk-producible UAVs in the next decade??!!

We deadly need a workaround to bulk-produce aircraft and engines. This new design must focus on these things.

 

[Krishnendu Chatterjee]

Alternately we could higher well-experienced retired engineers from GE, Rolls Royce etc. to achieve the goal. Western companies higher talent from all over the world.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

Wrong direction. Kaberi2.0 should be used in AMCAmk1 and m2. PlanB : Give this engine development to Adhani, Ambhani and TATAs with funding. I'm sure in 2 years time they can produce world class 6th gen engine.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

Alternately we could higher well-experienced retired engineers from GE, Rolls Royce etc. to achieve the goal. Western companies higher talent from all over the world.

Good suggestion. But hiring them will be costly affair.

 

[The Presence]

What nonsense is this? Can't Indian scientists design it and then use one foreign company to make those critical components and hand them over to India? Why is designing things shifted to another country? Why does design really need a foreign company? It is just that we need some critical components. India can design them first in various dimensions and then order them in bulk. Once we get that, then depending on them, design the remaining parts for the engine, and then once the engine is designed, take it to the test bed and then identify its characteristics and then do a vibration test using substructure tests or similar tests to figure out the designing parameters for the remaining tests. Why does design require the involvement of another country?

India should focus on guessing initial core parts and then prepare them with various dimensions and then bulk-produce them using a trusted foreign partner that has the capacity to produce quickly. And then use it and start designing the remaining parts of the engine and then bulk-produce them. This will give Indian designing and production units expertise and a learning experience in bulk-producing engines. This will also pave a way to produce more engines and aircraft per annum as per long-term war needs.

Have you forgotten that China already acquired the technology to bulk-produce UAVs and also recently acquired a foreign company that is very suitable for engine production??!! The combination of these two will result in bulk-producible UAVs in the next decade??!!

We deadly need a workaround to bulk-produce aircraft and engines. This new design must focus on these things.

We will be getting the all the knowledge and technology from our partner agency. Similarly they will be getting ours.

But since they will develop the harder parts, we will probably have to pay more. That's okay if the engine is ready for serial production by 2035.

It's a masterplan. It should be followed for the AMCA as well by roping in other countries like Philippines/Morocco for bearing some of the costs, then shifting some of the production in the respective country.

This will not only reduce our R&D costs, but get us assured export customers even before a single unit is built. Similar method was employed for JSF F-35 by USA.

 

[beencensured]

Wrong direction. Kaberi2.0 should be used in AMCAmk1 and m2. PlanB : Give this engine development to Adhani, Ambhani and TATAs with funding. I'm sure in 2 years time they can produce world class 6th gen engine.

Ambani, Tata, and Adani do nothing original or cutting-edge. They are crony capitalists and make things expensive as they do not believe in competition. Ambani and Tata go so far as to sell fruits, vegetables, and clothes, as they are shameless. Further, they use the government to do crony capitalism, like raising prices, getting land for free, taking oxygen away from startups, etc.

 

[Vijigishu ( विजिग्शु )]

It's a practical approach. They know we GTRE can't make the hot section in adequate time. Involvement of foreign OEM is necessity. Although I have huge doubt over the "learning along the way" part. But anyway, they have to be pragmatic and result oriented with this one.

 

[Vijigishu ( विजिग्शु )]

Good suggestion. But hiring them will be costly affair.

Not as costly as paying the OEMs.

 

[Satish]

Good suggestion. But hiring them will be costly affair.

This hiring technique should have been done in the 60s...we could have leveraged that time...what the USA did...we should do now, or else it's the end.

 

[alpha numeric]

This hiring technique should have been done in the 60s...we could have leveraged that time...what the USA did...we should do now, or else it's the end.

I mean we did hire a talented German Designer to design HAL Marut, so it's not without precedent.

 

[Akshay Bisht]

Good opinion, but can be better:

1. Start the process for selecting a foreign OEM for 5th-gen and 6th-gen engines.
2. Start developing test engine facilities: ground-based, high-altitude-based, and on-air platform-based.
3. Restart funding for the Kaveri project to boost morale and financial support for Kaveri 1.0.
4. Start a new project, Kaveri 2.0, aiming for a wet thrust (with afterburner) of 110-140 kN, so it can replace the F414 in TEDBF.
5. Pick up the pace on the DRDO Ghatak project.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

What nonsense is this? Can't Indian scientists design it and then use one foreign company to make those critical components and hand them over to India? Why is designing things shifted to another country? Why does design really need a foreign company? It is just that we need some critical components. India can design them first in various dimensions and then order them in bulk. Once we get that, then depending on them, design the remaining parts for the engine, and then once the engine is designed, take it to the test bed and then identify its characteristics and then do a vibration test using substructure tests or similar tests to figure out the designing parameters for the remaining tests. Why does design require the involvement of another country?

India should focus on guessing initial core parts and then prepare them with various dimensions and then bulk-produce them using a trusted foreign partner that has the capacity to produce quickly. And then use it and start designing the remaining parts of the engine and then bulk-produce them. This will give Indian designing and production units expertise and a learning experience in bulk-producing engines. This will also pave a way to produce more engines and aircraft per annum as per long-term war needs.

Have you forgotten that China already acquired the technology to bulk-produce UAVs and also recently acquired a foreign company that is very suitable for engine production??!! The combination of these two will result in bulk-producible UAVs in the next decade??!!

We deadly need a workaround to bulk-produce aircraft and engines. This new design must focus on these things.

This is just fake news. India already makes AL-31F and can design new engines too, given time. The USA, France, etc., have designed engines in the 1980s and early 1990s which are used even to this date, like M88, F414, F135, etc. No matter what, India is not 40 years behind the USA, France, etc. There may be some lag, but not so huge that India can't do anything on its own.

There will be Indian OEMs and the private sector only, no foreign OEMs. No foreign country has 110kN engines anyway, and hence it doesn't make sense that India expects a foreign country to develop an engine fully and hand it over.

 

[Sandeep]

No matter what India has to make a deal with Safran and develop a brand new engine which gives India 100% of the technology and get to manufacture it entirely in India. It will be very expensive but there’s no other alternative as we have to create an entire ecosystem in the private sector. The main benefit is that we get to learn about the advanced technology that’s required to develop a 5/6th generation engine completely rather than receiving partial knowledge.

 

[obiwankenubi jedi]

They should have realized this 30 years ago and started with a foreign consultant. We did this for nuclear and space technology, why not for jet engine technology? By now, they would have had a very successful and widely used engine in India and maybe even exported it.

If the sanctions in 1990 blocked this, then we most definitely shot ourselves in the foot with the nuclear tests. But at least now, if they just show the engine to Russia, France, America, or the UK and pay them to fix the issues, even share IPR if necessary and possible, and fix it for once...

There is no more pride in going ahead alone and failing for decades, risking our country's defence and the lives of our armed forces personnel anymore. We must just call Safran, GE, Rolls-Royce, Klimov, or NPO Saturn and get them onboard as consultants to revive Kaveri and turn it into an engine that can power Tejas. For the right money, they will do it.

Whoever solves this should also be incentivized as the partner for the next-gen 110kn engine, but this will put all eggs in one basket. Another approach could be to form a JV and work with GTRE on Kaveri and a separate OEM for the 110kn engine, but this needs to be done now, in 2025, at the earliest.

Not sure what we did with years of assembly of RD-33 and AL-31F. It looks like we just employed ITI technicians and not IIT engineers to learn and build engines on our own and engines of our own designs. It looks like just assembly of CKD kits rather than understanding the design and architecture of these engines. So I really fear the same would happen with the F414 deal. Might as well sign a similar deal for F404 and M88 engines too.

 

[Akshat]

This is just fake news. India already makes AL-31F and can design new engines too, given time. The USA, France, etc., have designed engines in the 1980s and early 1990s which are used even to this date, like M88, F414, F135, etc. No matter what, India is not 40 years behind the USA, France, etc. There may be some lag, but not so huge that India can't do anything on its own.

There will be Indian OEMs and the private sector only, no foreign OEMs. No foreign country has 110kN engines anyway, and hence it doesn't make sense that India expects a foreign country to develop an engine fully and hand it over.

Well India is in fact far behind the west, even more than 40 years. US was making F404 in the late 70s. Lets say early 80s (depending on whether you take it from first run or induction). India still has no comparable engine which is anywhere close to being operational. Kaveri is such a dud. So that's well over 40 years. M88 was flight tested on Rafale in 1990. That's also 35 years. And we are nowhere close right now. So it is far more than 40 years.

As for AL31F, we only make 53% of it, with every single critical component coming from Russia. We only make the simple parts.

So we simply can't do it without the foreign OEM and IAF and others have directly acknowledged that we want a foreign OEM. Whether we finally have one or not is of course dependent on the negotiations.

 

[Akshat]

@Shiva
Lol...if GTRE could have designed an engine, Kaveri would have worked no? If such simple sourcing of components was possible they would have done it way back. Fact is, GTRE can't design anything and if they are left to design even the screws in this engine, then we might as well forget AMCA.

 

[Akshat]

Ambani, Tata, and Adani do nothing original or cutting-edge. They are crony capitalists and make things expensive as they do not believe in competition. Ambani and Tata go so far as to sell fruits, vegetables, and clothes, as they are shameless. Further, they use the government to do crony capitalism, like raising prices, getting land for free, taking oxygen away from startups, etc.

Yeah...all the billions they invest in R&D are of course invisible to family loyalists like you. As always, you will only lie to promote socialism. After all, that's what the family is asking you to do.

 

[Akshat]

Good opinion, but can be better:

1. Start the process for selecting a foreign OEM for 5th-gen and 6th-gen engines.
2. Start developing test engine facilities: ground-based, high-altitude-based, and on-air platform-based.
3. Restart funding for the Kaveri project to boost morale and financial support for Kaveri 1.0.
4. Start a new project, Kaveri 2.0, aiming for a wet thrust (with afterburner) of 110-140 kN, so it can replace the F414 in TEDBF.
5. Pick up the pace on the DRDO Ghatak project.

What do you mean by restart funding on Kaveri? It was never stopped. Fact is, GTRE simply had no clue as to what to do with the engine and left unused money in the project. And now they are running around with the new plan, dry Kaveri, to fool the GoI and the Public. Parliamentary records show all this.

 

[Akshat]

There is no more pride in going ahead alone and failing for decades, risking our country's defence and the lives of our armed forces personnel anymore. We must just call Safran, GE, Rolls-Royce, Klimov, or NPO Saturn and get them onboard as consultants to revive Kaveri and turn it into an engine that can power Tejas. For the right money, they will do it.

Well that was in fact proposed by Safran. In 2016, Safran had signed a deal with DRDO to make Kaveri work. They audited the engine, and told DRDO that the entire hot core is absolutely useless. As per unnamed sources, they had asked for about 1 Billion USD, part of which would be covered by the rafale offsets, and some royalty on the parts they help fix. It was DRDO which refused, as that would have exposed the truth that after almost 3 decades, Kaveri was absolutely useless.

 

[obiwankenubi jedi]

What do you mean by restart funding on Kaveri? It was never stopped. Fact is, GTRE simply had no clue as to what to do with the engine and left unused money in the project. And now they are running around with the new plan, dry Kaveri, to fool the GoI and the Public. Parliamentary records show all this.

If they have no clue about what is wrong and how to fix it, they just cannot do it, can they?

If they knew what and how, would they have not fixed it by now?!

If you add more funding for the same experiment with no changes, then the result will again be the same.

Imagine if the person, all his life, has not heard of fire or the wheel and is expected to build an automobile. Then no matter how much time you give that person, the automobile will not be built.

It's the same analogy: that we couldn't or didn't build an engine ever or its key parts but just assembled the parts. No matter how much time you give them, they cannot build the parts for the engine on their own, no matter what!

We must not waste time anymore, as it would be just like asking them to actually learn to fly when all they can do is walk, swim, or watch the birds fly and wonder!

 

[Scronkfinkle]

A decade and a half has already been wasted; these were to be met in 2012, circa. What the f*** were these loaths doing until now? To date, we are still trying to regale multiple partners without one being finalized, and nothing about the 6th-gen engine broad specs is mentioned. Is it an adaptive cycle engine? Thrust dry/wet? After this many years, they still look nebulous and clueless. The one thing that baffles me is that these boffins think that all foreign players are dying to go to bed with them for an abysmal amount of money and will share all the tech. Are they even realistic? The said partners have nothing to gain from this partnership, only in terms of how much money they're going to make for their expertise, which they might not fully share if the monetary benefit is not seen. They have nothing to learn nor gain from a country where cattle walk the busy, congested streets. So pay a shipload of money quickly and get it done as if your life depended on it.

 

[Scronkfinkle]

Alternately we could higher well-experienced retired engineers from GE, Rolls Royce etc. to achieve the goal. Western companies higher talent from all over the world.

Why would they want to work with GTRE duds for peanuts and suffer in this country? They'd rather go to China and live life king-size. That's how Chinese aerospace has made progress in waves, as they have a meticulous hiring and rewarding program for foreign talent with niche skills, and they can satisfy every wild fantasy for their imported talent and also fund them to bring tooling and materials by every possible means, including theft. That's what these are competing with.