India May Consider Russian Su-57 as Stopgap to Counter China-Pak 5th Gen Jets as AMCA Still Far Away

India's pursuit of its own fifth-generation fighter jet, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), is a testament to the nation's growing defence ambitions. This indigenously designed aircraft promises cutting-edge capabilities like stealth technology, supercruise, and advanced weaponry.

However, the AMCA project faces potential delays, particularly in the development of a suitable engine, which could take six to seven years according to current estimates. This delay has opened a window of vulnerability for India as regional rivals China and Pakistan forge ahead with their own fifth-generation fighter programs.

China has already deployed the Chengdu J-20, and is actively developing other advanced fighter jets like the FC-31. Pakistan is also expected to acquire sophisticated fighter aircraft in collaboration with China. This evolving regional threat landscape has prompted India to re-evaluate its options and consider interim solutions to maintain its air superiority.

One potential solution gaining traction is the acquisition of Russia's Sukhoi Su-57 fighter jet. Initially, India had reservations about the Su-57 due to concerns about its engine and other technical aspects. However, recent upgrades, particularly the integration of the Izdelie 30 (A51) engine, have reportedly addressed many of these issues. This new engine significantly enhances the Su-57's thrust, fuel efficiency, and stealth capabilities.

The Su-57 boasts advanced radar-absorbent materials and a reduced radar cross-section, making it a formidable stealth aircraft. With these improvements and its full operational status within the Russian Aerospace Forces, the Su-57 is now viewed as a viable option to bridge the gap until the AMCA is ready for deployment.

Procuring the Su-57 offers several advantages for India. Firstly, it allows the Indian Air Force (IAF) to quickly acquire a fifth-generation fighter jet to counter the J-20 and other advanced threats. Secondly, the Su-57 shares similarities with India's existing fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters, potentially easing the transition in terms of maintenance, logistics, and pilot training.

While the AMCA remains a crucial long-term goal for India's defense industry, the Su-57 presents a compelling stopgap solution. By acquiring the Su-57, India can ensure its air power remains robust and capable of addressing the evolving challenges in the region. This strategic move underscores India's commitment to maintaining its defense edge in a rapidly changing geopolitical environment.

 

[Akshat]

And US trying to do regime change in Bharat as well as armtwisting on F404 is a friendly nation? Can't you comment on anything without being a fanboy of western nations?

Did I say they are a friendly nation? I have openly said and I will repeat. US is not our friend. They just need us to counter China and they will help us grow for that. But at the same time they want to keep us under their thumb with these tactics and will ruin us the day we become a threat to them. Unlike you, I have no interests other than the interests of my country India and I have no reservations in speaking the truth. I don’t support India’s enemies like you do.

 

[Phantom]

KF21 Boramae is BEST option now....

KF21 and Rafale are 4th gen jets, AMCA will take 10-15 years, until then we need to have a stop gap, it would be better to cancel MRFA, use SU-57M as a base design, add local avionics, Radar and other components making it little more stealthy with the composite and RAM tech we have, we don’t have another option, in 1-3 years all the countries around us will be flying some sort of stealth jets, it is way too dangerous for us without that capability, we are also planning to use a variant of Izdeliye-30 engine for AMCA, so it would be very useful.

 

[Phantom]

They equal in usefulness and function... Don't you even know Iranian hack US drone too from the past?🧐🤔 That's why no drones are safe if you use a powerful electronic warfare against it😹😹😹

In 1999 Yugoslavia shot an F-117 stealth drone using Soviet SA-3, sometimes stealth UAV's and even stealth jets loose their stealth when doing something like when opening internal weapons bay door or flying in a certain angle where there is thin RAM coating, they will loose their stealth and get picked by Anti Aircraft system’s radar, so nothing is 100% stealth.

 

[tipoo2]

The Russian Airforce itself have received only 30 odd j SU57 jets against their 70 or 73 orders paced.

They just created a large expansion to go in on serial production of the Su-57M, the "M" is when jets are considered actually baked in Russian parlance, with the Su-30 era avionics replaced and modernized and the AL51-F1 engines

It's a bit like concurrent development

 

[tipoo2]

KF21 Boramae is BEST option now....

Why do people even bring this up as an option, it's such a non-option. For one, their self admittedly 4.5th gen MK1 with no internal bays will be ready only by the time AMCA should be as well, which at least has internal bays and hits more marks of a 5th gen fighter. For two, South Korea is equally new to this as us, they're getting Lockheed's help but contract help is available to us to pay for as well.

There's no point to get a 4.5th gen KF21 when our internal bay having AMCA should be ready by then. The problem is what to do while we wait for AMCA.

 

[tipoo2]

Please go and read the year end commentary of Dassault CEO. He has specifically said they are willing to take new orders and they can deliver them on time.

If we're talking about till 2033, sure. Any new orders today won't start arriving until at least 2028 as there's other countries in line and the last deliveries into the 2030s.

 

[tipoo2]

Agree on AMCA.

As for Rafale, they have significant surplus production. I have given the numbers multiple times here. We can get more Rafale’s per year than Su57. So backlog is not even an issue here.

And coming to the plane’s quality. We all know how Russia lies about its super weapons. Even Russia isn’t ready to induct them in large numbers. And with the sanctions on chips and other semi conductors, it is unlikely that they can rival the computing power of western jets, which is of supreme importance in this age. And even as per Sukhoi’s own admission, it’s RCS is going to surpass Tejas and Rafale. Yes, Rafale or Tejas will have a higher RCS with missiles, but the EW system and better weapons will easily offset that gap.

It seems that almost no one covered this because "haha su-57 sucks" in western media, but they did just make a major new serial production expansion in preparation to switch to the Su-57M they'll be making much more quickly, Russian fighter development is a bit confusing but while they've been flying the Su-57 in combat, the "M" is when they consider a jet fully baked, and it comes with modernized avionics and the AL51 designed for it, while the AL41 was not designed for IR stealth.

All I'm saying is what's the harm in India taking a second look into their claims and seeing if it stacks up, they don't have Dassault's backlog

 

[Akshat]

If we're talking about till 2033, sure. Any new orders today won't start arriving until at least 2028 as there's other countries in line and the last deliveries into the 2030s.

Again, not true.

At the start of this year, Dassault had a backlog of 211 planes. I think 6 more were added as the last batch of Indonesian planes came into the backlog. So that’s 217 planes. 70 are for the French Air Force.

They have 141 export orders in the backlog. 126 are from Indonesia and UAE alone. UAE will start getting their planes from 2027, and Indonesia from 2026. So this year and the next, most of the orders will be going to the French airforce. Now Dassault’s promise is to start deliveries in 36 months. So any planes ordered now will indeed almost come in 2028, which is their promise. If you wanna take an imaginary case and be very strict about the schedule, you have 2 months left in this year, and these orders can come from the quota of French airforce. They did give 12 planes to Croatia.

And mind you, I am only talking about the current production. That alone has surplus capacity. But they have already went to 3 planes per month rate this year at the component level. They will reach that level at assembly level next year. That would mean a net surplus capacity of 13 planes annually. That would mean the new planes can come well before 2028 as well. And even if they are late in getting to 36 planes level, they can meet the current targets at least. They can keep doing that till 2028, as their promise is of 36 months.

 

[RG]

Any delay in Engine availability for AMCA and Tejas may result in India going Su-57 order, that seems to be likely and logical solution.

 

[tipoo2]

Makes sense. We don't have any other 5- gen jet available. Provide Russia with inputs to improve the jet. Some AMCA tech Uttam GAN can be integrated in it. If Russia wishes to export their jets they can do it via prod line in India to avoid sanctions.
Since AMCA would be in production arond year 2040. We should buy few squadrons of SU57 before we induct AMCA.

Yeah some of our own tech like the Virupaksha GaN AESA radar and GaN EW could make it better, where Russia barely seems to have produced any fighter sized AESAs with only the Su-57 itself in some 20 models having it. And that's a first gen non-GaN type AESA.

We'll be ahead of them on some core technologies soon, but are still some 1.5 decades away from being able to squadron up with AMCA, and that's just MK1, so some interim hybridization may be worthwhile

 

[tipoo2]

KF21 Boramae is BEST for now as SU57 means very severe sanctions on HAL and no GE engines or MQ9 drones would be delivered forever!!

KF21 is the worst of all options my guy. For one, their self admittedly 4.5th gen MK1 with no internal bays will be ready only by the time AMCA should be as well, which at least has internal bays and hits more marks of a 5th gen fighter. For two, South Korea is equally new to this as us, they're getting Lockheed's help but contract help is available to us to pay for as well.

There's no point to get a 4.5th gen KF21 when our internal bay having AMCA should be ready by then. The problem is what to do while we wait for AMCA.

 

[skgs]

As usual, few years ago Indian military, research people overestimated themselves and rejected Su-57 as inferior and believed they could produce better than Su-57. But, what happened at the end? AMCA is facing endless delay and I am sure it will be on paper for another 10 years. People who lack humility, will only get humiliation.

 

[PKPRS]

Rather than trying to be snarky, how about you actually give some evidence? Russia has received some Su-57s, but gauging both by their limited deployment and the small batches, it is known that they are still only in small-scale production.

I don't think you understand Russian's production process , when they designate a model with M, that's when their real production will pickup steam, means they have thoroughly tested the product in real saturated environments and the product is ready for induction, they made 20 jets this year alone and wanted to produce 20/year from now on, there was a news a couple of days ago saying that SU-57 was used to take high value targets in Odesa Ukraine.

 

[Raj Reddy]

Su-57 the way it exists is not going to be useful for India.

the radar is less capable than the one that we will have on our Super Sukhoi's.

The only way is to MKI the Felon.

Indian designed and produced Computer, Radar(One front looking radar, two side looking radars and one backwards looking radar. Two sets of L band array radars on the wing leading edge), RWR, MAWS need to be added to the Felon to help us Integrate Indian Weapons at a later date.

Software development for such a complex Fighter would be a task. Russia developed close to 4 millions lines of code for the main computer.

India has a huge task ahead if it wants to go ahead with procuring the Su-57 felon.

 

[PKPRS]

As for Rafale, they have significant surplus production. I have given the numbers multiple times here. We can get more Rafale’s per year than Su57. So backlog is not even an issue here.

yes definitely more Rafale's after 15 years when Dassault reduces all 228 order backlog at the rate 10/year, provided other Countries doesn't join the Backlog list ordering more, there are a lot of Countries in the Word that are not as technical as we are, those Countries believe what ever Dassault says like their product has the same capability as 5th gen F-35 and buy Rafale in flocks, we understood Rafale's capability after spending $10Bln and didn't order more.

 

[PKPRS]

I now wonder if we should have stuck to FGFA, to think we were going to order 214 of them and have had no major fighter acquisitions since, and the Su-57 may be the least stealthy of the fifth gen but the FGFA would have at least been this plus the some 43 improvements India was requesting. We should have at least been getting them by now, while AMCA probably won't be squadroning up until late 2030 or 2040 when China is not just 1000+ J20s deep but also probably having more sixth gen fighters than we have fifth even by then again.

FGFA could still be made, FGFA and AMCA are different class fighter jets, one is not the replacement for other.

 

[Anonymus]

Rafale is just a missile carrier interceptor.... It will be detected by enemies easily

same goes for kf21 it also not a stealth fighter jet it is also 4.5 gen means it is also a missile carrier easily detected by enemies

 

[PKPRS]

I have already said Bharat may Buy atleast 2 to 3 sqad of Su-57 & Super sukhoi may get some Tech from Su-57 too, second Bharat may buy Su-57 But will never buy F-35 .

It will never be given, there is no guarantee for GE engine also.

 

[PKPRS]

Yes, let's get that massive maintenance headache. That's what we need, isn't it?

36 Rafale's won't provide you maintenance headache.

 

[Akshat]

yes definitely more Rafale's after 15 years when Dassault reduces all 228 order backlog at the rate 10/year, provided other Countries doesn't join the Backlog list ordering more, there are a lot of Countries in the Word that are not as technical as we are, those Countries believe what ever Dassault says like their product has the same capability as 5th gen F-35 and buy Rafale in flocks, we understood Rafale's capability after spending $10Bln and didn't order more.

We are talking about Dassault, not HAL.

 

[Akshat]

It seems that almost no one covered this because "haha su-57 sucks" in western media, but they did just make a major new serial production expansion in preparation to switch to the Su-57M they'll be making much more quickly, Russian fighter development is a bit confusing but while they've been flying the Su-57 in combat, the "M" is when they consider a jet fully baked, and it comes with modernized avionics and the AL51 designed for it, while the AL41 was not designed for IR stealth.

All I'm saying is what's the harm in India taking a second look into their claims and seeing if it stacks up, they don't have Dassault's backlog

Firstly, I have already explained that Dassault has spare capacity. You couldn’t argue with those numbers. So if you are truly looking for an informed debate, Inwould expect you to stop using that as a negative for Dassault or tell us why not.

Now coming to Su57. I have read that report. But as the drone incident shows, Russia still doesn’t have the know how for stealth. And the price is super high. And the avionics are junk. Even Russia hasn’t placed any fresh orders. They have been claiming to increase production of various weapons but those weapons are still far behind the west. You can look at it all you want, but the fact remains that Russian weapons are a junk and there is no evidence to show that Su57 is any different.

 

[PKPRS]

We are talking about Dassault, not HAL.

They themselves said this that, they made only 13 in 2023 and anticipate to make only 12 in this year and anticipate to make 10 each for the next two years due to supply chain problems and then plan to gradually increase the production rate from 2027 onwards if conditions are good., so there is a lot of ambiguity in their statement.

 

[Akshat]

They themselves said this that, they made only 13 in 2023 and anticipate to make only 12 in this year and anticipate to make 10 each for the next two years due to supply chain problems and then plan to gradually increase the production rate from 2027 onwards if conditions are good., so there is a lot of ambiguity in their statement.

😂😂😂 They have said they will make 22. At least learn to Read. There is not just a statement but hard deliveries to prove that they have surplus capacity and a great product. I know you Russians think we are a poor country who should buy only junk weapons which no one else wants to buy, like Gripen and F18 or Su57. You want us to buy their junk because their production lines are closing. You think only the Europeans and Arabs have the right to fly great planes like Dassault Rafale. But we have moved ahead and won’t fall for your traps now. We will buy what our military wants. You can keep spreading your lies.

 

[Pad UwU]

Care to point put where you feel I am mistaken, or is that blanket statement all you are going to make?

Russian already know stealth technology their Soviet scientist developed the mathematical equation of it when you apply it when design aircraft.... The US scientist who works with the government ask the Russian dude to try to prove his research and viola it's real the result is reducing radar cross section to achieve stealthier profile... Sadly Soviet government at that time are bankrupt 😹😹😹 as times goes by many other steal feature added by other countries research... Only US is the only country applied all those feature the results is f22 and f35.... Fun fact most of RAM coating paint is supplied by UK company for f35...
other factors of stealth feature is small radar jammer that can jam enemies frequency. Su57 has tones of that same goes to f35 and f22. Other futuristic miniaturize radar and it's other subsystems will be producing low power plasma that can absorb radar signal of enemies that negates it's feedback... Those freaking Russian Orc's already knows that and their main big problem is where they can produce it's semiconductor that is a latest nodes foundry like from Samsung, ASML, Global Foundry, Intel and many more for military grade usage... The Chinese fetus eater is pre occupied to master 7nm for their local use.... That's why Russian Orc's instead focus on upgrading su35 into s version....

your comment about lacks many info😹😹😹 with lots of bias...why not apply to defend Ukraine and kick those Russian Orc's 😁🙃

 

[Pad UwU]

The Russian Airforce itself have received only 30 odd j SU57 jets against their 70 or 73 orders paced.

Buying Su35S is better while waiting to catch-up of localize western components and that's what Russian are doing for themselves