India Needs ToT for F-404 Engine like South Korea to Ensure High Production Rate

India's agreement with GE for F-404 engines is facing significant challenges, highlighting the urgent need for India to secure Transfer of Technology (ToT) for these critical engines. Delays in the supply chain and a shrinking order book from other manufacturers are threatening the timely delivery of the remaining 99 engines, potentially impacting the production of Tejas Mk1A fighter jets.

South Korea's successful FA-50 program, which benefited from ToT for the F-404 engine, serves as a compelling example. By achieving ToT, South Korea established a secure supply chain and maintained a high production rate for its jets. In contrast, India, without ToT, faces dependence on external factors that are beyond its control.

The Indian Air Force's plans to procure additional Tejas Mk1A jets necessitate a substantial increase in F-404 engine requirements. Furthermore, factoring in engine replacement rates over the aircraft's lifespan, the need for these engines is even more pronounced. ToT for the F-404 engine would empower HAL with autonomy in engine production, mitigating future supply chain disruptions and delays.

While ToT involves an initial investment, it represents a strategic decision with long-term benefits. Self-reliance in engine production far outweighs the initial costs. Acquiring ToT would not only ensure a steady supply of engines for the Tejas program but also bolster India's indigenous fighter aircraft capabilities.

In conclusion, the current engine shortage underscores the critical importance of HAL pursuing ToT for the F-404 engine. This strategic move will address the IAF's immediate needs and propel India towards self-sufficiency in jet engine technology, solidifying its position as a leading aerospace power.

 

[பாலா குப்புசாமி]

If south Korean had tot then we can order the engine directly to SK. We don't need TT of 404. We need only 100 engines. Kaveri will be ready and replace the 404

 

[PKPRS]

Not by a country mile. Even if you take HAL's ridiculously overstated delivery numbers, by 2028, there'll still be a 100 or so Tejas Mk 1As left for delivery. Or are you not taking the 97 aircraft order into account? In practice, going by HAL's performance, we'll have 130-150 Tejas Mk 1As awaiting delivery.

It is rather because of IAF’s ridiculously repeated specs changes requests that is causing delays, because IAF already set it sights on MRFA and tips, until they get that, they will use all kinds of tactics to delay this program, they want HAL blocking it ‘s way.

 

[sanket]

If south Korean had tot then we can order the engine directly to SK. We don't need TT of 404. We need only 100 engines. Kaveri will be ready and replace the 404

Indian Variant of GE 404 IN20 is Most powerful in all GE0-404 variant how it can b integrated.

 

[Akshat]

Kaveri with ~50 KN of thrust is on verge of being integrated in Ghatak. In another 5-6 years it may replace F404's in MK1's and there after in MK1A's. A ToT for F404 will kill our own engine.

DRDO has been saying that Kaveri is on the verge for the last 2 decades or more now. This is just their way of ensuring job guarantee. As long as it’s with DRDO Kaveri ain’t getting operational on anything ever.

 

[Akshat]

In another 5 years we won’t be making MK1A, we will switch to MK2 in 2028, Kaveri could be fitted in Twin engine ORCA or TEDBF.

Given HAL’z pace, we would be making mk1a not for the next 5 but 25 years. Maybe more.

 

[Akshat]

Not by a country mile. Even if you take HAL's ridiculously overstated delivery numbers, by 2028, there'll still be a 100 or so Tejas Mk 1As left for delivery. Or are you not taking the 97 aircraft order into account? In practice, going by HAL's performance, we'll have 130-150 Tejas Mk 1As awaiting delivery.

Far more than that. Including the new order, we still have some 180 planes waiting delivery. Assuming 2028 middle as the reference point, or 4 years from now, they won’t deliver more than 20 planes. So 160 is a real possibility,

 

[Akshat]

It is rather because of IAF’s ridiculously repeated specs changes requests that is causing delays, because IAF already set it sights on MRFA and tips, until they get that, they will use all kinds of tactics to delay this program, they want HAL blocking it ‘s way.

IAF hasn’t asked for any changes. HAL had already declared last year that mk1a will be delayed. I myself had said that at the start of 2023 itself.

 

[Akshat]

That will cost us $30Bln, for 3-4 squadrons of 4th gen jets spending $30Bln is ridiculous, we just need to make MK1A or SU-30 until MK2 is ready, with some used Mirages we could easily wait till MK2 is ready.

Whatever it will cost, it will still be the cheapest option 😂😂😂

 

[Akshat]

No not at all In entire Life span of Fighter it Require 3.5 Engine. 220 Fighter jets of Tejas are going to b Inducted by IAF then see the potential it will require 880 Engines in Mid Life upgrade Kaveri derivative can b replace once it is developed with desired Thrust & weight.

i always said and again i will say GTRE is fine Tunning the Kaveri derivative to produce 90 kN Thrust. with Reducing weight

GTRE has been doing that for well over a decade now. And they will keep doing it till eternity.

 

[Akshat]

It was IAF who was not interested in Tejas MK1A ever changing demands , Then Late Defence Minister Manohar parikar pushed Tejas MK1A below the Throat of IAF, after that IAF signed deal for 83 Tejas MK1A. IAF wanted GE to supply Engines & components for Tejas MK1A (GE-404 )while GE-414 For Tejas MK2 was to manufactured undr ToT in India.after some Time IAF found Tejas MK1A Good Fighter jet & wanted Further 97 Tejas MK1A order to place.But IAF never thought about Engine manufacturing Locally under ToT same as GE -414 & wanted Engine components to b supplied by GE for Tejas mk1a Engine GE404 over the Life span of Tejas MK1A. if ToTal 220 Tejas MK1A was going to inducted by IAF they should have clear vision about it.

IAF was told Mk2 will start induction in 2016. By HAL. So don’t blame them for HAL and ADA’s incompetence.

 

[Akshat]

Absolutely. With F-414 ToT we will have perfected Kaveri by then.

Not as long as GTRE is involved.

 

[Akshat]

If the U.S can't deliver now, then they will cause huddles even after ToT.
Invest that money in building up capability, and capacity in India instead.

They tried. GTRE failed. Now they are trying again, with a foreign partner. But this is urgent.

 

[Akshat]

This shows our defense and civilian bureaucracy has not brains at all. Its so surprising that with 100 of :LCA teajs mk1A in pipeline with F-404 engine , we should have gone for TOT.
This why we could have produced in India itself and have control over production timelines plus extra benefits of not directly depending upon foreign supply chains.
Seems like Rajnath Singh is a useless defense minister along with Airforce official.

Nopes. It shows incompetence of HAL and ADA.

HAL was first told Mk2 is coming in 2016. Then 2022. So the orders placed were just placeholders till Mk2 comes. No one was planning to have so many mk1a. They are just a compulsion. Mazburi hai bas.

 

[sandy 007]

Kaveri with ~50 KN of thrust is on verge of being integrated in Ghatak. In another 5-6 years it may replace F404's in MK1's and there after in MK1A's. A ToT for F404 will kill our own engine.

If we feel we require F414 engine in large numbers then what i feel HAL must order more engine before finalizing deal with IAF for Tejas MK2 deals why to wait for IAF order once engine is available why to wait for IAF order this is what needed to be done before signing deal with IAF for MK1 A program also. Who is at fault it is not IAF it is HAL which lack foresightedness. HAL always worry about its order book in spite of knowing that IAF will give some more order for MK1A. When you are running company then you must know the future requirements and work accordingly. Otherwise all these become null and void if you know that IAF will require Tejas in large numbers.

 

[kumar]

When US is delaying supplying f404, how can we expect them to do TOT. All this is pipedream.

 

[Sandeep]

The first order for the engine deal was decided back over 10 years ago when GE was selected as the winner but the USA would not transfer any technology to us or any Indian production

Maybe this time we can strike a better deal for the second batch of 97 jets which involves a high amount of ToT and local production because we will need a large number of engines. Once we reach 200 Tejas MK1A jets it will use at least 600 engines or possibly another 200 if we extend the jets life beyond 30 years which is most likely. We need to get the technology and production capabilities.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

If we feel we require F414 engine in large numbers then what i feel HAL must order more engine before finalizing deal with IAF for Tejas MK2 deals why to wait for IAF order once engine is available why to wait for IAF order this is what needed to be done before signing deal with IAF for MK1 A program also. Who is at fault it is not IAF it is HAL which lack foresightedness. HAL always worry about its order book in spite of knowing that IAF will give some more order for MK1A. When you are running company then you must know the future requirements and work accordingly. Otherwise all these become null and void if you know that IAF will require Tejas in large numbers.

Without confirmed order HAL wont be able to place orders for engine. What MoD can do is to do a part payment for advance engine procurement even before placing formal orders for jet planes. Also, order some additional engines for replacements and maintain additional inventory.

 

[kalantak51]

HAL completing 180 LCA 1A's by 2032 is a foolish dream .They will need atleast a decade & half to complete the order.Also LCA 2 not before 2035,AMCA by 2037-2040.They r not in a position to make a working model TEDBF with their current technical know-how.so it's doubtful whether LCA naval version will see the light of the day.Even if they manage with some foreign help like France,it will not come before mid or late forties.

 

[R. Singh]

If This GE-414 tech help GTRE to upgrade Kaveri engine tech upto 90 KN then OK if not then we should also ink deal with USA to transfer GE-404 engine tech ! Our next batch of Tejas fighters and AMCA must have engine swap provisions to fit GE/Pratt & Whitney/Safran/ Rolls Royce engines ! Its engine bay and air intakes should be designed accordingly !

 

[wallisk]

If this was the case then no one would be buying F404 engines anywhere in the world, and all those who had once operated 404 would have replaced them with F414.

HAHAHAHA...! only Saab Gripen-C LCA and ADA-LCA uses GEF404 engines. all other jets using this engines are just trainers only jee... Also, F414 was NOT available in 1990's when ADA pushed forward LCA program. Also, F404 was much cheaper when F414 was released.