India's Fighter Jet Dilemma: Can the TEDBF Survive Without the IAF?

India's Fighter Jet Dilemma: Can the TEDBF Survive Without the IAF?


The Cabinet Committee on Security's (CCS) recent greenlight for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) signals India's continued determination to achieve self-sufficiency in fighter aircraft production.

However, the AMCA's substantial costs, combined with the TEDBF program's uncertain future, highlight potential issues in India's overall fighter jet development approach.

The AMCA: A Promising but Costly Venture​

Backed by a budget of Rs 15,000 crore, the AMCA seeks to produce a fifth-generation fighter for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The IAF's planned acquisition of 120 AMCA aircraft in MkI and MkII versions shows strong confidence in the domestically developed fighter.

TEDBF: Facing Challenges and Uncertainties​

The Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) program, designed to create a 4.5-generation fighter for the Indian Navy, faces a more precarious path.

Despite a similar development cost (Rs. 14,000 crore), the Navy's current requirement stands at only 45 aircraft. This restricted order could jeopardize the project's financial viability, particularly if the Navy doesn't expand its carrier fleet with vessels like the proposed 65,000-ton IAC-III.

The ORCA Opportunity and IAF's Disinterest​

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) proposed the ORCA, a lighter TEDBF variant tailored for the IAF.

The ORCA could potentially have met the IAF's procurement needs under the MRFA (Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft) tender, which seeks over 100 jets. The IAF's apparent lack of enthusiasm for the ORCA leaves the MRFA tender open to international manufacturers.

Security Concerns and a Need for Realignment​

The substantial expenses associated with the TEDBF program, alongside the IAF's disinterest in the ORCA variant, raise concerns about the program's long-term security consequences.

A financially strained TEDBF project might severely restrict the Navy's choices for fighter aircraft, jeopardizing its combat capabilities.

India's fighter jet development plans appear to be at a crossroads. The AMCA shows potential, but the TEDBF's uncertain future warrants careful assessment. A more integrated approach, considering the Navy's and Air Force's needs in tandem, could offer a more cost-effective and strategically sound path forward.
 
Add few more rafale m and Stop this b*******... If indian navy really thinking about future then amca naval version make a sense..
 
Just posting Article TEDBF will b Roll out as per plan.
 
Add few more rafale m and Stop this b*******... If indian navy really thinking about future then amca naval version make a sense..
AMCA Naval would be a heavy ( now I request don't go to wiki and compare weights - Naval fighters are specifically modified and are rather heavy than air force variants), high maintenance, budget eater with low availability.......

TEDBF makes sense.......IN has the futuristic approach here not IAF who could have asked for a joint development of TEDBF/ORCA instead of LCA mk2.
 
Stop this non sense. Look at India's economic size after 5 years and 10 years and then decide security scenario. I am sure we should be able to order more fighters once we reach to 2028 or 2030. As of now focus should be to expedite Tejas Mk2 ,AMCA, TEDBF, Ghatak even if that means spending more money to cut short time. Along with this there should be 1 more program to develop technologies for 6th generation.
 
TEDF
Tejas Mk1
Tejas Mk2
AMCA

MRFA
Rafale M

Too many projects might spoil the broth. While projects may sound important but financial crunch is will also follow. I fear, some projects and plan might be sacrificed or terminated or delayed to make way for others. Too much homework for 1 night.
 
Untill there are 2 more aircrafts carrier planned in future it is not a viable product . 26 rafales are already planned. Each ac carries 26-30 aircrafrts.Total need for 2 acs is = 52-60. So, basically tedbf is for 26 more. Even if 3rd ac of same vikrant class is made after 10 yrs then the need will be= another 26.total 52 new tedbf, thats economically an unviable product. Even if a supercarrier of 65k ton with 40 more needed, thats still around 110-120 which is not a great no for a product of that value. Other ac operators have their own jets or will buy f35, so it has no export value. Untill airforce joins its not looking good.
 
AMCA Naval would be a heavy ( now I request don't go to wiki and compare weights - Naval fighters are specifically modified and are rather heavy than air force variants), high maintenance, budget eater with low availability.......

TEDBF makes sense.......IN has the futuristic approach here not IAF who could have asked for a joint development of TEDBF/ORCA instead of LCA mk2.
Very true. What most people don't realise is that 'navalising' a fighter generally adds 3.5 to 5 tons of weight. Do that with AMCA, and you end up with a jet that is either unsuitable for STOBAR and is better suited for CATOBAR operations, or you end up with a STOBAR-capable jet with a very limited fuel and/or payload capacity.
 
TEDF
Tejas Mk1
Tejas Mk2
AMCA

MRFA
Rafale M

Too many projects might spoil the broth. While projects may sound important but financial crunch is will also follow. I fear, some projects and plan might be sacrificed or terminated or delayed to make way for others. Too much homework for 1 night.
We are gling for complete indigenisation of our fighter fleet. Like what china started 15 years ago.

And the aircraft that you mentioned will be developed over 15 year timeframe. Tejas mk1a enter production now. Tejas mk2 enter production in 6-7 years, amca enter production in 10-12 years and TEDBF enter production in 13-15, years.
 
Stop this non sense. Look at India's economic size after 5 years and 10 years and then decide security scenario. I am sure we should be able to order more fighters once we reach to 2028 or 2030. As of now focus should be to expedite Tejas Mk2 ,AMCA, TEDBF, Ghatak even if that means spending more money to cut short time. Along with this there should be 1 more program to develop technologies for 6th generation.
I agree with you. We are going for complete indigenisation of our fighter fleet. Like what china did. We are at the point of our journey, where china was 15 years ago.
 
The order book will very easily exceed 45. Look at it this way:

Assuming the Navy decides to maintain one naval squadron of the Rafale M rather than deploying them to shore bases, you still need atleast 26+24-ish = 50 or so TEDBF for two carriers. Add in attrition replacements and trainers, and the number crosses 60 easily.

Now, Vikramaditya will be replaced by IAC-III in the 2040s, and if you assume a 65,000 ton carrier there, you would need about 35 TEDBF for that. You already have 26 of those, so add another 9-10. Overall numbers are now at 70.

Now, the Navy has wanted to have dedicated shore squadrons, so if you assume 3 dedicated shore squadrons, that is another 55 to 60 aircraft, taking the order book to between 125 and 130.

Now, if you assume the Navy decides to transfer the Rafale Ms to the IAF (unlikely but possible), that is another 20-ish aircraft needed.

All in all, the TEDBF can easily have an order book of over 100 aircraft, and can even approach 150. It is a viable project, no questions asked.
 
logic says #India forego 5th gen AMCA, instead look to develop 6th gen #AMCA. best option is to create couple of AMCA as proof of concept for 5th gen AMCA. India has already missed 5th gen bus. do note #DRDO / #ADA / #ADE needs to work on #Tejas mk2 then #TEDBF & only then can #DRDO #HAL can touch #AMCA. as things stand #Tejas mk2 is not expected before 2034, 2 engine #TEDBF is not expected before 2038, so in all sense AMCA will be available only by 2042 by which time world would have started induction of 6th gen #aircraft. so to make up for dwindling numbers best solution is to go for ORCA the IAF version of TEDBF
 
Indian-Govt needs to encourage (pressure) a JV b/w IAF & IN to invest in:-
  1. TEDBF (ORCA)
  2. AMCA
If both IAF keeps it's obsession with MRCA then in the longterm, India as a Nation will pay it's price.

Continous investment in Tejas-Mk1 is the reason why India now has the ability to develop Combat Jets.

I truly understand that IAF leadership wants to boost their combat squadron strength with the goal to avoid any major loss in any foreseeable Indo-Pak or Indo-China conflict.

Now, the decision lies with the Indian political leadership.
 
AMCA is the must program here......
Question here is LCA mk2 or ORCA .......

because again TEDBF is the must program here unless ADA can optimise AMCA and reduce the already low weight of this stealthy MRFA.......

Some idiots think of 'Navalising' AMCA ...... only if they had some practical knowledge about this;

#U CAN EASILY MODIFY A NAVAL AIRCRAFT TO AN AIRFORCE AIRCRAFT BUT ITS TIMES HARDER TO GO WITH THE 'VICE VERSA'...... BECAUSE NAVALISING' ADDS THE WEIGHT STRAIGHT TO ABOUT 4-5 TONS.....

This fiasco again shows our so- called foresighted forces immaturity........LCA mk2 should have been dropped in the favour for ORCA. A joint development should have started with sole concentration on this instead of 2 different projects. This could have saved time, money and could have been times more efficient.

Now do we have the room to rectify the mistakes!?

Absolutely not.
LCA mk2 is times ahead of TEDBF only..... modifying TEDBF to ORCA would take around 5-7 years.....
By then LCA mk2 atleast would have 4 Squadrons operational.

Again this mistake won't hurt much..... afterall a single engine ORCA is necessary for an Airforce....F16 ,J10, Gripen, Vigen are prime examples
 
logic says #India forego 5th gen AMCA, instead look to develop 6th gen #AMCA. best option is to create couple of AMCA as proof of concept for 5th gen AMCA. India has already missed 5th gen bus. do note #DRDO / #ADA / #ADE needs to work on #Tejas mk2 then #TEDBF & only then can #DRDO #HAL can touch #AMCA. as things stand #Tejas mk2 is not expected before 2034, 2 engine #TEDBF is not expected before 2038, so in all sense AMCA will be available only by 2042 by which time world would have started induction of 6th gen #aircraft. so to make up for dwindling numbers best solution is to go for ORCA the IAF version of TEDBF
AMCA MK1 itself is 5.5th Gen & AMCA MK2 is 6th Gen Upgraded Features.where did ORCA stand when world would have started Inducting 6th gen . AMCA MK2 will b comparable with 6th Gen Fighter jets.
 
Why IAF not interested in ORCA but obsessed with phoren maal MRFA???
 
Why IAF not interested in ORCA but obsessed with phoren maal MRFA???
Because the proposed production schedule ORCA is not practical. Most of the suppliers for ORCA and the Tejas Mk 2 and and AMCA programs would be common, and you can't have someone scale up capacity several times over in a year or two.

If the IAF went for ORCA, it is quite likely a lot of parts and the like would be the major bottleneck, and that would impact production of ORCA, Tejas Mk 2, AMCA, and TEDBF.
 
The order book will very easily exceed 45. Look at it this way:

Assuming the Navy decides to maintain one naval squadron of the Rafale M rather than deploying them to shore bases, you still need atleast 26+24-ish = 50 or so TEDBF for two carriers. Add in attrition replacements and trainers, and the number crosses 60 easily.

Now, Vikramaditya will be replaced by IAC-III in the 2040s, and if you assume a 65,000 ton carrier there, you would need about 35 TEDBF for that. You already have 26 of those, so add another 9-10. Overall numbers are now at 70.

Now, the Navy has wanted to have dedicated shore squadrons, so if you assume 3 dedicated shore squadrons, that is another 55 to 60 aircraft, taking the order book to between 125 and 130.

Now, if you assume the Navy decides to transfer the Rafale Ms to the IAF (unlikely but possible), that is another 20-ish aircraft needed.

All in all, the TEDBF can easily have an order book of over 100 aircraft, and can even approach 150. It is a viable project, no questions asked.
Why IAF not interested in ORCA but obsessed with phoren maal MRFA???

If discards MRFA. Go full on ORCA... Full on indigenous
 
Why IAF not interested in ORCA but obsessed with phoren maal MRFA???

If discards MRFA. Go full on ORCA... Full on indigenous
Refer my reply to your main comment for my reply, please. I don't want to type the same thing twice. Thanks in advance.
 
AMCA is the must program here......
Question here is LCA mk2 or ORCA .......

because again TEDBF is the must program here unless ADA can optimise AMCA and reduce the already low weight of this stealthy MRFA.......

Some idiots think of 'Navalising' AMCA ...... only if they had some practical knowledge about this;

#U CAN EASILY MODIFY A NAVAL AIRCRAFT TO AN AIRFORCE AIRCRAFT BUT ITS TIMES HARDER TO GO WITH THE 'VICE VERSA'...... BECAUSE NAVALISING' ADDS THE WEIGHT STRAIGHT TO ABOUT 4-5 TONS.....

This fiasco again shows our so- called foresighted forces immaturity........LCA mk2 should have been dropped in the favour for ORCA. A joint development should have started with sole concentration on this instead of 2 different projects. This could have saved time, money and could have been times more efficient.

Now do we have the room to rectify the mistakes!?

Absolutely not.
LCA mk2 is times ahead of TEDBF only..... modifying TEDBF to ORCA would take around 5-7 years.....
By then LCA mk2 atleast would have 4 Squadrons operational.

Again this mistake won't hurt much..... afterall a single engine ORCA is necessary for an Airforce....F16 ,J10, Gripen, Vigen are prime examples
ORCA, if a spin off from TEDBF, would have been a double engined aircraft. But who knows, shaayad IAF waalon ko marnaa hai, in a single engine aircraft, hence Tejas Mk2. Or maybe they are copying PLA-AF's structure of J-10s and J-20s.
 

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