India's Mass Order of F404-IN20 Engines for Tejas Mk1A Surprised GE, Leaving It Scrambling to Catch Up & Delays

India's unexpected mass order of Tejas Mk1A in 2021 may be the reason behind GE's inability to meet engine delivery timelines. This unexpected demand necessitated the delivery of almost 99 more F404-IN20 engines, a variant specifically designed for the Tejas Mk1 program, leaving GE scrambling to adjust its production capabilities.

GE officials, speaking anonymously, revealed that the company had not anticipated such a large order after the initial procurement of 40 Tejas Mk1 jets. By 2013, India's focus had shifted to the more advanced Tejas Mk2, powered by the F414 engine, further diminishing GE's expectations for additional F404 orders. Consequently, GE scaled back its supply chain for the specialized engine, assuming limited future demand.

The 2021 order for 83 Tejas Mk1A jets, bringing the total to 123, significantly disrupted GE's plans. The company faced a daunting supply chain challenge, needing to ramp up production for an engine it had virtually phased out. The COVID-19 pandemic further complicated matters, disrupting global supply chains and forcing GE to identify new partners to restart production.

Adding to the complexity, the F404-IN20 engine is a highly customized variant specific to India. While other countries utilize the F404 engine, their versions differ in thrust output and production arrangements, limiting GE's ability to leverage existing resources to meet India's sudden demand.

With India now planning to procure an additional 97 Tejas Mk1A jets, GE is accelerating its production efforts. The company aims to deliver 20 engines per year starting in 2026, with potential for further increases. This commitment is crucial to support the expanding Tejas Mk1A fleet and ensure its operational readiness.

Despite the challenges, GE remains dedicated to fulfilling India's orders and supporting the Tejas Mk1A program. The F404-IN20 engine will continue to play a vital role in India's light combat aircraft fleet until the Tejas Mk2 enters full production.

 

[sanket]

Your stance about the AL-31 is incorrect, since Russia still produces the AL-31 for their own use. The engines we get can come off the same production line. That does not hold true for the F404.

Finally, if you have a source for India ordering more than 90-100 M88 engines back in 2016 (72 to be used on the Rafales plus spares), please share that.

Joke of the day i am asking in which deal Engines are ordered at Once for Life Time of Fighter jet , dont Reply hurryly First read others comments care fully then reply. Infact i am asking sorce for which deal 3.5 Engines are bought

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

HAL should have worked for another engine, other that 404 ,

EJ200 option was there in the 90's but successive Govt's rejected due to higher costs involved something like 1.5 times costs for GE F404... ONLY other engine is useless Russian RD93MA ones...

 

[Suddhasattwa Bandyopadhyay]

MOD/IAF made a similar kind of blunder with the delayed order of 6 additional C 17 Globemaster III aircraft knowing Boeing's assembly line was shutting down.

 

[shekhar]

That's why it is necessary to tell the companies for your complete requirements present and future, then you are free from your side, otherwise blame game has no advantage

 

[Ray]

1. They weren't dreaming about anything. I have said it before as well, but as the F404IN-20 is a specialised variant, you need a separate line to manufacture those.

2. The 83 Tejas Mk 1A order was not given a lot of warning for. For a comparison, the second order for 97 aircraft was hinted at back in late 2022, and the order is not expected to be signed before the end of this financial year.

3. Each fighter jet needs 3 or 3.5 engines over it's lifetime, sure. However, you missed two things. Firstly, there has always been some talk of replacing the F404 with the Kaveri at some point. Secondly, if only 40 Mk 1/1As were delivered, then these wouldn't require spare engines for a long time. This meant GE could use the IN-20 production line to manufacture other F404s, and eventually build more IN-20 variants when the time to replace engines came around.

4. You cannot expect a company to keep a production line going on an expectation of orders. Had the 83 aircraft deal even been firmly announced, GE may have decided to keep the line going.

See, there is certainly a geopolitical aspect to this. The US is, to an extent, delaying the engines slightly. However, the main factor here is simple economics and how supply chains work.

HAL is infamous for delay, that's true. But don't be blind in hate of HAL you people are trying to justify delay by GE.
yes Indian variant of f-404 is different than others but it won't be much different. There will be some parts which are different from others but not the whole engine.
GE doesn't need to make some super efforts for Indian variant. They're one of the biggest engine maker and can't manage a small thing, is completely nonsense.
It's American arms twisting nothing else. US Democrat govt is behind all this and you guys are doing mud slinging on each other. US wants to pressure Indian govt to buy f-16.
I don't know why but you are a big US fanboy. And ready to malign India and Indians too to save American wrong doing.

 

[NSR]

I wrote many times here that GE is not responsible for the delay in deliveries of GE F-404IN20.
GE delivered 75 F-404s and some were used in Tejas Mk 1 and some in trainers.
That still leaves many more left to be used in Tejas Mk IAs.
So the delivery delay of Tejas Mk IAs were not due to GE but due to inefficient and bottomless pit mismanagement by none other than HAL.

Since India wishes to build 200+ Tejas IAs, it is high time to get a license from GE to build F-404IN20 locally with 80% TOTs.
India needs at least 400+ F-404s conservatively over the lives of Tejas IAs.

Go for it and improve skills though build both F-404s and F-414s and apply those skill sets to Indian GTRE Kaveri derivatives.
Order same machines, tools, and testing reequipments for Kaveri derivatives too.

This way India can realize its fighter engine dream very quickly.

 

[A K Tiwari]

It was HALs responsibilities to keep their suppliers in the loop. When GE disbanded the 404 production line our government should have raised an alarm and given them and inkling of the things to come.

 

[Arz786]

keep your childish comment with You , GE should have Avoided signing the contrat if there supply Chain was not ready to deliver simple Even after Xtra 13 Months cant deliver single Engine shame on GE Very professional Aero-Giant , GE must b knowing there own preparedness thats why they sign the deal

Frankly, GE and many other US defence contractors consider India a risky place to do business. They are not so impressed by our market as we think they are. It is too uncertain, volatile and binary for them. I will not be surprised if GE had taken a decision to keep India on low priority. I mean look at the GE Defence business presence in India - no senior manager running that business, while their civil aero-engine business has multiple senior officials managing that civil aero-engine business.

 

[Daniel Raj]

Or maybe the US govt is blackmailing India for something we don't yet know now. So they could have asked GE to play hard to get.

 

[PKPRS]

Nice Joke From GE , it means GE-404 Supply chain were dreaming about Chai Samosa. IAF have ordered 20 IOC & 20 FOC , & Based on Modification Further orders were going to b placed second What mean by IOC & FOC .............??? GE dont fool others its your incompetence u were busy in having Chai samosa Third Every Fighter jet in its life span requires 3.5 Engines apart from 40 (IOC+FOC) several Tech Demonstrator were Flying, then what about IOC& FOC According to GE it should b Grounded after Integrating Engines for Once Any way Nice PR From GE , as expected western are Masters in propaganda form hiding there own mistake Lastly spareparts & components needs to replace at certain sortie GE is not new in this Field it have tonnes of experience even then exposed to fullfill its order for taking extra 13 months

Whole world has supply chain issues, for an example some new cars are delivered by dealers to customers with just one remote instead of two, customers are asked to wait a couple of months to get the second remote, GE doesn’t make engine for only India, they also have suppliers internationally, IAF is the main culprit here just sleeping all the years and asking for 90 mini jets all of a sudden especially during COVID, who expected IAF to order Tejas MK1A when everybody thought they would order Tejas MK2. Even GE wiuldn’t have expected an order for some engine that they are going to stop producing.

 

[Nvs rao]

If there is a chance to criticize HAL everybody jumping into the gun but look how many indian slavery minded people come to the deffence of one inefficient company atleast unable to deliver their product after two years of order confirmation. best of luck Indian slaves for the western countries tech companies

 

[ajaysdate]

I don't buy this. No company will commit to deliveries if it can't deliver. The Penalty clauses the financial pain unbearable. Unless India decided to do away with these clauses, which won't happen.
The delay is by design. They are leveraging some clauses with which they can't be penalized.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

Whole world has supply chain issues, for an example some new cars are delivered by dealers to customers with just one remote instead of two, customers are asked to wait a couple of months to get the second remote, GE doesn’t make engine for only India, they also have suppliers internationally, IAF is the main culprit here just sleeping all the years and asking for 90 mini jets all of a sudden especially during COVID, who expected IAF to order Tejas MK1A when everybody thought they would order Tejas MK2. Even GE wiuldn’t have expected an order for some engine that they are going to stop producing.

It's GOI who ordered MK1A as MK2 was not ready. Don't blame IAF.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

This is a fair point at the time when additional Tejas were ordered. But this should have come up at that time itself and not as an excuse or after thought!!! GE had enough to time to beef up the supply chain to support the additional order.

 

[Anant]

If there is a chance to criticize HAL everybody jumping into the gun but look how many indian slavery minded people come to the deffence of one inefficient company atleast unable to deliver their product after two years of order confirmation. best of luck Indian slaves for the western countries tech companies

Unlike said Indian firms where the main reason for most delays is bureaucracy and incompetence, the Western firm here has a perfectly valid reason for the delays.

P.S. Before you think about making a statement about me being a slave for Western tech companies, I work in an Indian company that isn't a tech firm.

 

[M S Chatterji]

Just for information; how much is the dry thrust of this engine as compared to other engines made by Safran or Russia. The article says that the wet thrust of 84 kn.

Sometimes back; the Economist from UK had said that it was under powered.

 

[Anant]

Joke of the day i am asking in which deal Engines are ordered at Once for Life Time of Fighter jet , dont Reply hurryly First read others comments care fully then reply. Infact i am asking sorce for which deal 3.5 Engines are bought

Okay, here is as simple an explanation as I can put it:

Let's say each jet requires 3 engines over its lifetime, and let's assume the life of a jet is 30 years. That would mean that under normal operations, you'd have Engine 1 fitted in at construction, Engine 2 after 10 years of service, and Engine 3 after 20 years of service.

Now, if GE knows they can build 20 engines a year with a dedicated line, and they have only been made aware of a requirement of engines for 40 jets (or 120 engines in total), then they will deliver 40 engines now (2 years' worth of production), switch the line over to some other engine, them switch it back after 8-9 years of the starting point, deliver the next batch of 40 (another 2 years' worth), manufacture something else, and finally switch back and deliver the final batch of 40.

They will not deliver the first 40 and then leave that line idle for 8-9 years while they wait to get the order for the next batch of 40. Switchovers like this require time and money, and are done with concrete orders. In this case, GE's attempts to do so were slowed down thanks to supply chain disruptions from the two major wars going on, plus a bit of geopolitics.

See, no one is saying that GE has no share of the blame. They most certainly do have to take blame for the delays. However, the majority share of the blame cannot be attributed to them.

 

[Anant]

HAL is infamous for delay, that's true. But don't be blind in hate of HAL you people are trying to justify delay by GE.
yes Indian variant of f-404 is different than others but it won't be much different. There will be some parts which are different from others but not the whole engine.
GE doesn't need to make some super efforts for Indian variant. They're one of the biggest engine maker and can't manage a small thing, is completely nonsense.
It's American arms twisting nothing else. US Democrat govt is behind all this and you guys are doing mud slinging on each other. US wants to pressure Indian govt to buy f-16.
I don't know why but you are a big US fanboy. And ready to malign India and Indians too to save American wrong doing.

It is quite different, boss. In any case, as I said, GE is not blameless. They have a share of the blame for these delays, but the lion's share cannot be attributed to them either.

Oh, and I am not a US fanboy. In fact, if everything else was well, I'd rather not have anything to do with them. I also understand we will almost certainly be the "big bad guy" after Russia and China. However, I have come to the realisation that our partnership with the US is a case of "Waqt aane par gadhe ko bhi baap banana padta hai."

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Companies work on firm orders, not speculation. As such, while GE certainly welcomed the extra F404 engine orders, the simple fact is that the low demand of the F404, coupled with the fact the IN-20 variant is a specialised variant, plus demand for other engines, meant they switched over production.

Now, they should have been more proactive in restarting F404IN-20 production, but considering the two wars going on presently, some delays are to be expected. It will purely be GE's fault if they now dither from the promised timelines. That is, if they promise, say, 8 engines by the end of March and fail on that, then it is purely their fault. Even the latest round of delays are technically their fault. Anything before that, not so much.

In august 2021, engine contract was signed with GE. Negotiations etc would be going on for at least an year before. They had 3 years to produce and supply. They should have informed 6-8 months ago regarding potential delays. Although HAL is already running behind the schedule. It got GE engine delay to save its face.

 

[Anant]

In august 2021, engine contract was signed with GE. Negotiations etc would be going on for at least an year before. They had 3 years to produce and supply. They should have informed 6-8 months ago regarding potential delays. Although HAL is already running behind the schedule. It got GE engine delay to save its face.

GE had indicated about delays way back in December last year. The difference is that there have been more delays since, and the blame for these goes to GE as well as factors outside their control.

 

[Anant]

There is only one solution to this problem:
Indigenous R&D of engines for 20 years with Public-Private partnership. Right down to the material science. We have material science B.Tech course in IIT Bombay. What is it there for?

Long-term, indigenisation is the answer. Short-term, we have to make do with this.

 

[Anant]

It shouldn’t matter if they were even caught off guard with more orders placed because all they have to do is continue the same variant and its production for a longer period of time. This benefits GE anyway so there should be no complaints from them. However I’m sure that India would have entered the optional clause of placing more orders in their contracts as optional and if it’s ever needed. So this shouldn’t be seen as a reason for the delays in manufacturing the engines for Tejas MK1A or delay production of the Tejas MK1A and trainers.

Sir, the problem here is that the production line manufacturing the IN20 variant had already been switched over to other engines. As such, getting it set back up would have been a difficult task, and the supply chain disruptions thanks to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the Israel-Hamas war hasn't helped that process.

Had the line been around, then any and all delays would have been on GE's account.

 

[Anant]

Just for information; how much is the dry thrust of this engine as compared to other engines made by Safran or Russia. The article says that the wet thrust of 84 kn.

Sometimes back; the Economist from UK had said that it was under powered.

F404-GE-IN20: 49 kN dry, 85 kN wet thrust.
F404 (standard variants): 49 kN dry, 79 kN wet thrust.
F110 (larger engine): 73-84.5 kN dry, 120-145 kN wet thrust (depending on variant).
F414: 58-ish kN dry, 98 kN wet thrust.
Snecma M53 (an older engine): 64 kN dry, 95 kN wet thrust.
Snecma M88: 50 kN dry, 75 kN wet thrust.
EJ200: 60 kN dry, 90 kN wet thrust.
Kaveri: 52-ish kN dry, 80-85 kN wet thrust.
RD-33: 50 kN dry, 81 kN wet thrust.
RD-33MK: 50 kN dry, 88 kN wet thrust.
AL-31 (considerably larger): 76.5 kN dry, 122.5 kN wet thrust.

 

[PKPRS]

It's GOI who ordered MK1A as MK2 was not ready. Don't blame IAF.

to add to the misery, IAF also keeps changing the requirements, they want everything upfront, they don’t want lifecycle upgrades, this further delays, as GAL imports almost 50% of the components, supply chain issues with every single component delays even more, IAF needs to learn to live with whatever they get to begin with.