India's Rafale vs. China's J-20: Can Quality Beat Quantity?

India's Rafale vs. China's J-20: Can Quality Beat Quantity?


The prospect of a confrontation between India's Rafale fighters and China's J-20s is a hotly debated topic. Some Indian Air Force (IAF) veterans confidently assert that a mere 36 Rafales could defeat over 200 J-20s, but a more nuanced analysis is necessary.

The Rafale undeniably possesses a significant advantage in combat experience, having operated extensively in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq, and Syria. However, it remains uncertain whether this experience directly translates into superior pilot proficiency and proven combat tactics.

On the other hand, China's J-20 stealth fighter boasts advanced technology and the promise of fifth-generation capabilities. Yet, without any actual combat record, its true effectiveness remains a matter of speculation.

While the Rafale isn't officially classified as a fifth-generation fighter, it integrates many features common to that class. Superior avionics, a highly capable radar system, and an array of weaponry make the Rafale a formidable opponent.

China's history with unlicensed copies of Soviet jets raises further questions. These aircraft, although plentiful, lacked the combat experience and technological refinement of their Western counterparts, casting some doubt on the J-20's true capabilities in a conflict scenario. That said, as a fifth-generation fighter, the J-20 potentially benefits from advanced stealth and sensor fusion technology.

Importantly, China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) is demonstrating a growing commitment to innovation. The J-20 shows a substantial leap forward and could eventually rival Western fifth-generation aircraft. CAIG's successes with the Chengdu J-10 and FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder, along with China's impressive production capability, shouldn't be underestimated.

The overwhelming quantity of J-20s (over 200) presents a significant challenge. Joseph Stalin's adage, "Quantity has a quality all its own," holds relevance here. Even if the Rafale proves individually superior, sheer numbers can quickly tip the scales. Conversely, history provides numerous examples where tactics and pilot experience effectively exploited the weaknesses of larger opponent forces.

India's long-term defence strategy should strongly consider ramping up domestic production of technologically advanced aircraft like the AMCA. Reducing dependence on foreign imports will guarantee a steady aircraft supply while fostering technological sovereignty.

The Rafale vs. J-20 debate underscores the complexity of modern combat. While the IAF's Rafales are undeniably powerful, the combination of China's growing technological competence, sheer numbers of potentially capable J-20s, and superior production facilities creates a situation where quantity could very well outweigh quality. However, the decisive factors in any potential conflict will likely be pilot skill, effective tactics, and battlefield adaptability.
 
Why such a discussion is really required.
Mass produceability is always far ahead in real time war scenario when compared to high quality technology products.
Two or three less quality products if collectively target one high quality product then our history shows , it is easy to win over it.
India, due to the fear of sanctions, not willing to produce mass produceable effective war items especially offensive in preiovus seeral decades.
Only the current decade, India showed some courage to not to fear on sanctions. But still following same old fashioned technology demonstrative approaches due to inertial in nature.
Still, India has to grow and mature to focus on offensive capabilities by working towards mass produceability.
It is also not untrue that, high quality technology demonstrations require more sophistication and huge time when compared to developing mass produceable products.
Since India achieved such a huge task, if focussed, India can definitely acquire the skills to bulk produce at cheaper cost.
But still, India not yet focussed on such aspect
 
One day Emperor Akbar and Birbal were taking a walk in the palace gardens. It was a nice summer morning and there were plenty of crows happily playing around the pond. While watching the crows, a question came into Akbar's head. He wondered how many crows were there in his kingdom.

Since Birbal was accompanying him, he asked Birbal this question. After a moment's thought, Birbal replied, "There are ninety-five thousand four hundred and sixty-three crows in the Kingdom".

Amazed by his quick response, Akbar tried to test him again, "What if there are more crows than you answered?" Without hesitating Birbal replied, "If there are more crows than my answer, then some crows are visiting from other neighboring kingdoms". "And what if there are less crows", Akbar asked. "Then some crows from our kingdom have gone on holidays to other places".

This analysis of J-20 vs Rafale sounds to be an exercise in the same vein. Nobody knows the capabilities of the Rafales in Indian inventory and both quantity and quality of the J-20s are anybody's guess.

A unbiased military analyst performing a unbiased analysis in such a scenario will favor quantity over quality as during wartime the Chinese will be able to easily replenish their stock of J-20, but India can't do the same for every Rafale lost in battle.

Any sane person will come to conclusion that the answer to the Chinese J-20 is not Rafale, but AMCA..
Yes, you are right ... and the best option is to put it to test.. make the 'imported' Rafale fight it out with the 'locally manufactured' J-20.. Once at war .. and during war with China, these mfkr Europeans & US will impose arms embargo on us and we would be having diminishing number of Rafales.. (of course China locally manufactures all its weapons & can replenish its losses quickly); So, since dreaming is free, its okay to do so..
 
IAF first of all is sitting in a speculation that J20 is not that good stealth fighter.
The question is of what if it is that good!?
This western propaganda which makes so much people believe that yes a 4.5+ gen Rafales are superior to 5 gen J20 is just so pathetic.....same goes for the people who actually believe it.

If J20 is actually the Chinese Raptor, then we are done FR.
Then we will start screaming .. China is a cheater .. China is a cheater ..
 
India shouldn't go to war with China until 2035 or else it's over.
Agreed.. but would we have guarantee from China that it would stop manufacture of, development of & enhanced capabilities of its weapon systems till 2035 so that we can try catch up with them of what they have today.
 
Like USA is using Ukraine against RUssia, India should make sure, provocations will not result in the direction, where India becomes testing grounds for Western weapons against china...
Then we don't know America.. it will happen.. Yes, it will happen.. they will shove us in front of China.. so that during conflict-war, they can sell their junk weapons to us at double triple the prices.
 
J20 is a VLO 5th generation stealth fighter while Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter. J20 will detect and fire on Rafale before Rafale does the same in J20. India needs a proper 5th generation fighter to match J20 instead of hopping Rafale will somehow save us. Rafale can easily match and defeat China's J10C, J11D and J16 however. But considering china has way more J10C/J11D/J16s there is a disadvantage here again. India needs to fastrack SU30 MKI upgrade, Mk1a production and Mk2/AMCA development
Just to see one item .. we have 36 rafales.. and China today has more than 600 J-10s. Okay, so to take on 600 J-10s, the each one Rafale will have to shoot down at least 16 J-10s in combat.. Its easy... Yes ??
 
Actually it's 36 Rafales plus the Rafales of the French Air force that India is counting on. I distinctly remember French PM saying that in case of war with China the French will fight alongside with us.
Yes, what a trap... they are Frenchies .. history shows they are cunning, dodgy, lying greedy mfkrs. In Europe no European Country there trusts them Frenchies. Of course they will charge us hefty amount on hefty terms for their every soldier, gun, bullet, other weapons they would use to fight along side.. Money, Money, Money ; As the saying is: "Cash is King" .. Globally " Money is God";
 
Nepal & SriLanka & Afghanistan & Iran & Africa 😅
take Ukraine as example.....
Sir ji, you forgot Maldives, Mauritius as .. ismail bhai said so. By the way Africa is good.. there are 54 countries in Africa.. lets count them in too. Really ???
 
in a BVR combat the 1st to detect and fire on an enemy wins so J20 wins, itz as simple as that.
Fast tracking AMCA and Kaveri as top national priority is the only way
Many will use the China fear to dump/sell their products on us.
also 200 J20s wont be stationed near the Indian border.
No that's not correct. Our Sukhoi and Rafale including BVR missiles that can see the Chinese jets and fire on them as soon as possible and even if they fire several missiles at our jet then we have the advantage and capability to destroy their missiles and repel it with our jets counter measures like flying with another radar or flares.
 
You have not appreciated the issues correctly on both counts. During any potential serious engagement between PLAAF and IAF, Quad alliance will certainly deploy assets against PLA denying them to field all 200 J-20 fighters. PLA faces geographical challenge of 4000+ metre high Tibetan airbases imposing 50% load penalty. PLA training level is considerably low. Availability rate of J-20 is below par and less than 50% . PLA has only 4-5 airbases that can be used for operations across LAC. If you combine all these factors, you can understand the erroneous calculation of 200 vs 36 . Chinese budget is certainly larger than ours but lack of timely decision is more harmful than lack of money. GoI could have at least placed order for 36 additional Rafales costing about $5-6 billions as it will not require repeat cost of €1.8 billions for ISE , Infrastructure is already available for two more squadrons, training is completed. Repeat order only needs $1 billion per year distributed in 5-6 years. GDP of Bharat is fastest growing and poised to cross $7-8 trillions by 2030 . Bharat is capable to provide necessary funding for defence even if we keep defence budget within prudent level of 2% .
You are forgetting about our neighbour to the west. In future engagement between IAF and PLAAF, India wont have entire rafale squadron focused on china. Right now we have 1 squadron on western front and another on eastern front.

And you are placing way too much emphasis on quad. It is not a military alliance. Japan is a pacifist country, forget about them doing anything to help us, and australia is too far away. USA will think 10 times before engaging in war with China becaue of India, which is not an ally. US would wage war if china attacked taiwan.
 
India has got a very good variety of air defence system that we can use like the S400, MR-SAM, Akash, Spyder, VL-SAM. India needs to rebalance its offensive power to the LAC from the LOC as China believes it can take whatever it wants without any consequences or casualties which they lost 35 troops.

The Chinese stealth jets aren't really proper stealth jets at all and they are lying when they say it is. The technology and equipment they use is faulty, deficient, unreliable, poor avionics, poor radar range and coverage etc. Currently our Sukhoi and Rafale jets can passively use infrared to detect their jets before they can cross the border and we have a better weapons package unlike the Chinese weapons that claim to be superior than Russian missiles and most western weapons but the Chinese weapons are just as bad and unreliable as their Chinese jets.
 
SU30MKI with the new radar and sensor package will be able to pick the J-20 (with qiestionable stealth characteristics) on it's radar - there are lots of rumors that the SO30 can already pick the J-20. So, Rafale is not the only jet that will be facing the J-20. What India needs to focus on is the Astra MK2, a longer range BVRM. While Astra MK1 is good in it;s range, Pakistan is ordering more longer range Chinese A2A missiles and so is the PLAAF. The Meteor with a range over 200 km is an excellent missile to keep the J-20 at bay, it is too expensive and the French won't allow it to be integrated with the SU-MKI. Similarly, Tejas MK1A with a bigger engine and it's AESA radar will pick up the J-20 and with the integration of Astra MK2, it will be able to challange the J-20. So, yes, IAF does have a challange on it's hands, it is also not that helpless either.
 
Yes.
I also remember that the Soviet Union will also support us.
And let's not forget Bangladesh. They got their independence because of us, they owe it to lend their army to fight for us, in case of a war with China.
And then Operation Cactus - Our military prevented an attempted coup in Maldives. I am sure all of Maldives will fight on our side against the Chinese.

Did I leave out any other potential support we might recieve?
Yes Nepal and Butan will support and Myanmar too. Lets reply of friendship and good willing of world and be happy
(Sarcastic comment, for those who did not get)
 
J20 is more advance in all aspect vs rafale.... This is after they solve some problem of their ws15 engine and now learned the curves to progress more to enhance it's efficiency.... While us still lagging in engine 😹😹😹
 
This debate has a lot to consider. In a one-on-one fight, it is quite probable that an Indian Rafale will come on top over a Chinese J-20. However, as the article suggested, numbers play a role, and so do other things. A lot will depend on where such a battle takes place, what sort of weapons both sides have, what supporting forces each side brings, etc.

All in all, the balance is not favourable for us in the grand scheme of things, especially considering that China possesses over 1,500 modern fighters to our 600 or so (best case scenario). Moreover, with the exception of our Rafales, Su-30s, and possibly the Tejas, the other aircraft in that 600 number (Mirage 2000, MiG-29K, and Jaguar) are all at a technological disadvantage compared to most Chinese aircraft in that 1,500 number.

Hence, even if China could deploy 40% of their Air Force against us (and that number doesn't include the PLAN's aircraft, so the balance is even more lopsided), we might be in trouble unless we adopt a defensive posture, which kind of seems to be what we intend to do.

Regardless, we have to press on with MRFA, increasing production rates for the Tejas, the Super Sukhoi program, Tejas Mk 2, AMCA, etc. We cannot afford to be complacent at this point of time.
LMAO the chingchongs would only need to deploy most of their old aircraft with best AAM + ground radar + AWACS to target our rafales and no need for them to use their j20 because rafale is not stealth fighter
 
Yes, lol. The premise of the article is wrong. How can 36 rafale ever take on 200+ chinese jets.

The reason for IAF lagging behind on everything is lack of money. We cant compete with defence budgets of china (more than 3 times our budget) and america(10 times of our budget)
Yes, probably the 200 j20 cost the same as our 36 Rafales which are over rated.
 
Please do not underestimate our enemy. With just 36 Rafales, you cannot do anything against China. You can only engage in fights on social media and forums.
 
Indian-Rafale jets main job should for Airborne precision Nuclear-Strike.

I hope that Indian-Govt & IAF would consider buying additional 18 Rafale jets so that IAF operate at least 3 Squadrons of Rafale-Jets.

Indian-Govt should encourage a JV b/w IAF & IN to invest in:-
  1. TEDBF (ORCA)
  2. AMCA
 
36 is in no way a sufficient number for a country with the strategic challenges that India has .The numbers have to be increased;atleast six squadrons are required for a two front situation.
 
You are forgetting about our neighbour to the west. In future engagement between IAF and PLAAF, India wont have entire rafale squadron focused on china. Right now we have 1 squadron on western front and another on eastern front.

And you are placing way too much emphasis on quad. It is not a military alliance. Japan is a pacifist country, forget about them doing anything to help us, and australia is too far away. USA will think 10 times before engaging in war with China becaue of India, which is not an ally. US would wage war if china attacked taiwan.
For now ,I am discounting Pakistan having capabilities to create two front situation as it is already facing four front from TTP ,BLA , Afghanistan and Bharat. Current military capabilities of pakistan is quite hollowed despite their propaganda to the contrary. In my view, PAF can't survive 24 hours in an engagement with IAF . US and west will also threaten them to keep quiet. I am nowhere claiming that Quad will initiate a hot war with PLA in the event of Sino Indian conflict but US can deploy 2-3 aircraft carriers in threatening posture issuing ultimatum to PLA . This will divert attention of PLA. US will do this due to own national interest as a chinese victory over Bharat is not in their interest. US will certainly pass on intelligence on PLA submarines and other chinese targets alongwith replenishment of US supplied military platforms,spares and ammunitions to facilitate decisive defeat of PLA.
 
China will deploy bulk of their fighters to their eastern sector. They may deploy roughly the same fighters we have in LAC. As for Rafale matching J20 that is absolutely BS. J20 is a refined tested mass produced 5th generation fighter while Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter with advanced radar/EW/BVRM but no VLO capability like J20. J20 would likely overwhelm Rafale because it can detect Rafale and fire first while Rafale will take longer to detect J20.
How can you say this with so confidence ? Performance of all chinese hardwares exported or deployed in active warzones reveals otherwise. Even a visual look of J-20 reveals them to be non stealthy. Use of WS-10C engine makes them heavily under powered. Read Sun -tsu ,master chinese strategist who advises to appear strong when you are weak and vice versa .
 
For now ,I am discounting Pakistan having capabilities to create two front situation as it is already facing four front from TTP ,BLA , Afghanistan and Bharat. Current military capabilities of pakistan is quite hollowed despite their propaganda to the contrary. In my view, PAF can't survive 24 hours in an engagement with IAF . US and west will also threaten them to keep quiet. I am nowhere claiming that Quad will initiate a hot war with PLA in the event of Sino Indian conflict but US can deploy 2-3 aircraft carriers in threatening posture issuing ultimatum to PLA . This will divert attention of PLA. US will do this due to own national interest as a chinese victory over Bharat is not in their interest. US will certainly pass on intelligence on PLA submarines and other chinese targets alongwith replenishment of US supplied military platforms,spares and ammunitions to facilitate decisive defeat of PLA.
I agree with your assessment for quad. But I disagree with your assessment for pakistan. BLA, TTP, or afghan taliban are nuisances at best. Afghanistan is a dirt poor country. It can create border trouble at most. It is incapable of large scale offensive against pakis. It does not have an air force, tanks, SAM. Pakistan has bough chinese and turkish UMCAVs, which will make short work of any afghan incursion. These drones would be useless in war wirh india, since we have ample air defence capability.
 
Then we will start screaming .. China is a cheater .. China is a cheater ..
You are needlessly extolling chinese papercats . Even when Mao was on the pinnacle of his power, IA badly defeated Mao's cowards in 1967 at Nathula and Chola sector inflicting about 400 casualties of PLA papercats. In recent times IA badly beaten them in Galwan , Pangong so and Yangste. You are overestimating PLA propaganda fighters that can't face even our tiny Tejas having rcs of 0.3 sq metre and armed with Astra variants ,leave aside facing Rafales.
 

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