Is HAL Considering Safran's M-88 Engine for Tejas Mk1A Amidst GE Delays?

India's burgeoning aerospace industry continues to push boundaries with the development of its indigenous fighter jet, the Tejas Mark 1A. While the aircraft boasts impressive capabilities and advanced avionics, a persistent challenge lies in its reliance on foreign engine suppliers.

A supply agreement with GE for their GE-404 engines has faced delays due to supply chain issues, prompting HAL to explore alternatives. One option under consideration is the Safran M-88-3 engine, which powers the Dassault Rafale jets that India already operates.

However, the transition to a new engine presents several hurdles. The GE-404 engine, known for its reliability and performance, offers higher thrust than the M-88-3. Additionally, the M-88-3's different dimensions would necessitate significant modifications to the Tejas' fuselage.

Safran's production capacity, currently optimized for the Rafale program, would need a substantial boost to meet India's demands. Switching engines would also entail establishing new supply chains and logistics, further complicating the process.

Integrating a new engine requires rigorous testing and certification, potentially delaying the Tejas program and increasing costs. The decision to switch engines also involves geopolitical and economic considerations, such as strategic partnerships and domestic industrial benefits.

While the Safran M-88-3 engine boasts competitive performance, transitioning to it is a complex undertaking. The GE-404's superior thrust, established integration with the Tejas, and mature supply chain currently make it a more practical choice. Safran would need to significantly ramp up production to meet India's needs.

It's important to note that HAL has not officially confirmed any plans to replace the GE-404 engine in the Tejas Mk1A. The Indian government is also actively pursuing the development of its indigenous Kaveri engine, which could offer a long-term solution to engine dependency.

This situation underscores the challenges and complexities of defence procurement and the need for a balanced approach that considers technical, economic, and geopolitical factors. As India strives for self-reliance in defence technology, finding the right engine solution for the Tejas will be crucial for its success as a world-class fighter jet.

 

[PKPRS]

Because IAF doesn’t want the Tejas fleet to drop and fall off from the sky and explode like dewali crackers along with the Pilot, it is the World’s slowest engine even for twin engine applications compared to EJ200 Stage 2 and GEF414 engines that are current used in WF Typhoon Tranche 4/5 and F/A-18, so M88 is not sufficient enough to power single engine Tejas Mk1.

 

[sanket]

Replacement for GE-404 at the moment is not available it will only happen once kaveri 2 is developed till then wait for GE to deliver as per their new deadline Replacement can b happen only in Mid Life upgrade when kaveri is developed with 90 kN thrust with reduction in weight.Only Two of them are responsible for this situation First GE & Second Saran who fail to deliver offset clause of 36 Rafale deal under which they were going to do kaveri Flight worthy

 

[Anant]

Replacement for GE-404 at the moment is not available it will only happen once kaveri 2 is developed till then wait for GE to deliver as per their new deadline Replacement can b happen only in Mid Life upgrade when kaveri is developed with 90 kN thrust with reduction in weight.Only Two of them are responsible for this situation First GE & Second Saran who fail to deliver offset clause of 36 Rafale deal under which they were going to do kaveri Flight worthy

GTRE is the biggest owner of the blame. They failed miserably at developing the engine after decades of work.

 

[sanket]

GTRE is the biggest owner of the blame. They failed miserably at developing the engine after decades of work.

Shortage of Funds & Testing Facilities second India was not having strong Industrial base unlike western countries GTRE till today havent got Twin Engine Fighter jet as Test bed , 21 MIG-29 were offered by russia couple of years ago if it would have been purchased and two of them would have given to GTRE it have speed in development how many countries have been able to develop Jet Engine on its own Even Japan havent with strong Industrial Base

 

[Pramkumar]

MK2 should go with Kaveri instead of GE414.

 

[beencensured]

Replacement for GE-404 at the moment is not available it will only happen once kaveri 2 is developed till then wait for GE to deliver as per their new deadline Replacement can b happen only in Mid Life upgrade when kaveri is developed with 90 kN thrust with reduction in weight.Only Two of them are responsible for this situation First GE & Second Saran who fail to deliver offset clause of 36 Rafale deal under which they were going to do kaveri Flight worthy

It will happen only with Kaveri I . I do not get how 90 kn wet thrust flat rated engine is needed in Tejas mk1a. Kaveri2 can be used for AMCA, Tejas 2. If they can get 74kn wet thrust from Kaveri 1 is better as that is a flat rated engine, and they say the tweak to 80kn mean it is the best. Stop dreaming get practical World war is near and paan Islam. No one likes fa990t land, and Islam is even more disgusting. I wish people studied History as they would then Glorify only Hindus as world's only hope as Histories only legitimate superpower. .

 

[wallisk]

MK2 should go with Kaveri instead of GE414.

Kaveri are not there at all... IAF rejected failed GTX engines...

 

[wallisk]

CANNOT change to Russian engines at all; because it will Need to redesign MK1A jet fuselage completely! So, better HAL start ORCA-TEF Tejas-MK3 using Tejas-Naval LREX-slopey cockpit designs and 2 x RD33MK engines next...

 

[akhii]

Rather than planning all the unplanned eventuality and finding backup engine or replacement engine someone from MOD or from Indian Air force should understand the fact that the F404 engines are built in thousands as of 2024. More than 4k alone engines are manufactured powering the F/A-18 Hornets in service worldwide in all different variants. Simply reaching out to US Navy or Marines on a govt to govt basis for their backup/reserve engines in storage will help us get around this mess in short term and in the long term can buy their used engines with some time left in them to be used as spare parts to keep the Tajes fleet with greater availability rate.

Almost 4,000 F404 engines alone power the F/A-18 Hornets in service worldwide. Including with the US Navy & Marines, Kuwaiti air force. This new engine version similar to (or atleast close to) the configuration of Indian F404-IN20 was used on Swiss Hornets, Kuwaiti Hornets, later U.S. C and D Hornets, and subsequent Hornets. Even if these engines doesn't meet the requirements of the uprated F404-IN20, which is the highest thrust variant in F404 family, and which produces a maximum of 19,000 lbf (84 kN) of thrust with afterburner. The other variants of F404 make sense to be used in Tejas rather than going for French, European or Russian engines in the F404 category.

 

[wallisk]

Because IAF doesn’t want the Tejas fleet to drop and fall off from the sky and explode like dewali crackers along with the Pilot, it is the World’s slowest engine even for twin engine applications compared to EJ200 Stage 2 and GEF414 engines that are current used in WF Typhoon Tranche 4/5 and F/A-18, so M88 is not sufficient enough to power single engine Tejas Mk1.

RD33MK is having GEF414 tech's of FADEC controls and all. MIG29's not so many crashes actually, after RD33 Series3 engines of HAL are being used. RD33MK is a much much more advanced and better engine than Series3. For TEF jets 2 x RD33MK engines are quite safe actually speaking. HAL can build HF42 as TEF on these engines and ADA can redesign Tejas-Naval for twin engines of RD33MK.

 

[beencensured]

MK2 should go with Kaveri instead of GE414.

Tejas mk1a Kaveri, and Tejas mk2 KAveri2. Bite the bullet change economy to war economy. Let air force be active in testing on enemy.. They are manufacturing dry Kaveri, add after burner and install in Tejas. Waste no time.

 

[Utopian]

GTRE is the biggest owner of the blame. They failed miserably at developing the engine after decades of work.

Yes without any gov funding, they managed to certify the dry kaveri with own resources, that's a big feat. Gov itself strangulated Kaveri.

 

[ramdas]

The adoption of American military technology has raised significant security concerns for the country. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is currently facing the risk of obsolescence and vulnerability. It is imperative that we remain vigilant to prevent any potential exploitation by China. Additionally, the MRFA program's progress is concerning, and even if finalized, it will take another decade for it to be implemented. This timeline may leave us lagging behind in comparison to the rest of the world, which could already be moving towards 6th generation capabilities. Challenges with the MKIA, MK2, and AMCA programs, particularly in relation to engines, design, and accessories, have resulted in a lack of certification. Overall, we are facing a tumultuous situation that requires careful attention and strategic planning.

 

[Koorma]

If America provides you weapons, it means they have you in their pocket.

 

[wallisk]

If America provides you weapons, it means they have you in their pocket.

Yes. And you simply CANNOT buy any Russian or Chinese weapons at all!

 

[Roberto]

CANNOT change to Russian engines at all; because it will Need to redesign MK1A jet fuselage completely! So, better HAL start ORCA-TEF Tejas-MK3 using Tejas-Naval LREX-slopey cockpit designs and 2 x RD33MK engines next...

Mk2 with 1 Izdelye (Saturn) 30 would suffice too, can be later used in AMCA. Weight and dimensions should be similar, but RU are busy with SU-57 & S-70 drone and dunno about TOT

 

[Alok Gupta]

Why is this discussion even coming up? One has to be totally ignorant of a fighterjet's design for even thinking about this. The aircraft is often built around the engine. If one was to change the engine, the entire structural skeleton of the aircraft will have to be modified, there will be a new center of gravity necessitating relocation of various avonic components and other line replacement items. One will have to recertify the aircraft becaus eit's flight characterists will change with te size and weight of the engine.

 

[Puneet]

Agreed but better to prepare for an alternate engine with a delayed flight rather than an engine less plane which stays grounded

 

[Rajesh]

Rafale uses m88-2 engine. M88-3 is a proposed variant with higher thrust. If in mrfa rafale gets selected one clause should be the integration of m88-3 .for that to happen we should also get a seperate deal for m88-3 like what we intended to do with amca engine, fund and join the program so that we can get tot and ip along with make in india.This engine can solve dependence on American engines their sanction threats and their couple threat (Bangladesh). somewhere we have to look for a replacement but as usual we will Waite till the last second and then run for lifeline.