MoD Plans Separate Public-Private Production Line Model for AMCA as Previous SPV Model not Attracting Private Investment

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is charting a new course for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, opting for a dual public-private production model with two development-cum-production partners (DcPPs) - one public (most likely HAL) and one private. This move aims to ensure a competitive and resilient supply chain for India's first fifth-generation stealth fighter jet.

Originally, a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) model was proposed, where state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would lead the initial production of the AMCA Mk1, while a private sector entity would take over the subsequent AMCA MkII. However, challenges in investment and supply chain management prompted a shift.

The MoD will now fund both HAL and a soon-to-be-selected private company to develop their respective AMCA prototypes. After rigorous evaluation, the superior design will become the baseline for production, with both companies likely awarded manufacturing contracts, potentially in a 60-40 ratio. This dual-line approach aims to mitigate risks and bolster the supply chain.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is expected to procure 120 AMCA jets, comprising 40 AMCA MkI and 80 AMCA MkII variants. While this revised model aims to accelerate development, the AMCA project has faced delays, with the prototype's first flight now expected in 2028, instead of the initial 2024-25 timeline. These delays are attributed to challenges in finalizing production partners and ongoing negotiations with General Electric for local manufacturing of the GE F-414 engine, which will power the initial AMCA Mk1 jets.

Former IAF Chief ACM RKS Bhadauria highlighted the difficulties in the earlier SPV model, citing unsuccessful discussions with private entities. The MoD's adoption of the DcPP arrangement aims to overcome these hurdles.

In addition to the revised production model, the AMCA's design has also undergone changes, with its weight increased to 27 tonnes to accommodate a larger payload of conventional weapons in its internal weapons bay.

The success of this dual production line model could set a precedent for future indigenous defence projects, ensuring a robust and competitive domestic defence industry.

 

[Nidhish debbarman]

Forget a decade and AMCA. LCA Mk2 was supposed to go into serial production in 2016 and even till now we don't even have the prototype roll out.

As for US engines, why blame them when HAL couldn't even deliver the trainers even after a year? All engines have been delivered for those trainers right?

Yes but with trainer's aircraft first HAL need to talk with IAF expertise what they want... after receiving a product they(IAF) continously demand for changes.... now it is not a car or a bike u go on refitting and deliver what customer want. Look what is going with Arjun mbt mk1A now DRDO can't deliver because Germany denied to give engines, all government PSUs are lagging behind to deliver products at schedule time-line. So my point is better to go with atleast two different companies and build two products so that the pressure can be shift to the foreign companies.

 

[Dredd]

Good Appraoch, it will deliver Jets faster if the order is split in 60/40 Ratio

If both DcPP are developing prototype then it make sense to have a different approach for both prototype(design philosophy) and select the best one, similar to what USA did with X-32 and X-35 plan. or China did with JXX, IF both are based on same model that ADA shares then it will be unfair to judge one upon other as it will be judge solely on avionics which can be updated on either one. Also it will be waste of resources making same prototype.

 

[Sudha]

Good Appraoch, it will deliver Jets faster if the order is split in 60/40 Ratio

No HAL involvement will be 100% better. But unfortunately initial hand holding is required.

 

[Sudha]

If both DcPP are developing prototype then it make sense to have a different approach for both prototype(design philosophy) and select the best one, similar to what USA did with X-32 and X-35 plan. or China did with JXX, IF both are based on same model that ADA shares then it will be unfair to judge one upon other as it will be judge solely on avionics which can be updated on either one. Also it will be waste of resources making same prototype.

Cant expect that with unexperienced private sector. Wasteage of resources? With so much capacity to manufacture how much HAL has actually delivered? Roughly 3-4 aircrafts per year.

 

[Pramkumar]

There is no second company to develop and procure the AMCA. Better to setup the 2nd company in Tamil Nadu Defence Cordier and start the AMCA solely with production rate of 24 AC per annum and order for 240 nos in two batches of 120 each.

 

[Sudha]

Yes but with trainer's aircraft first HAL need to talk with IAF expertise what they want... after receiving a product they(IAF) continously demand for changes.... now it is not a car or a bike u go on refitting and deliver what customer want. Look what is going with Arjun mbt mk1A now DRDO can't deliver because Germany denied to give engines, all government PSUs are lagging behind to deliver products at schedule time-line. So my point is better to go with atleast two different companies and build two products so that the pressure can be shift to the foreign companies.

Taking to deliver a plane which was supposed to be delivered by early 1990s but delivered in 2015 (20+ years late), you are still surprised that IAF has asked for changes? You want IAF to fight 5th gen fighters with 3rd gen planes & win?

 

[Akshat]

Yes but with trainer's aircraft first HAL need to talk with IAF expertise what they want... after receiving a product they(IAF) continously demand for changes.... now it is not a car or a bike u go on refitting and deliver what customer want. Look what is going with Arjun mbt mk1A now DRDO can't deliver because Germany denied to give engines, all government PSUs are lagging behind to deliver products at schedule time-line. So my point is better to go with atleast two different companies and build two products so that the pressure can be shift to the foreign companies.

Bro before bashing IAF get your facts straight. Trainers are of FOC standards. This certification was given in 2019. Since then no changes have been requested.

Yes, engines and other issues might be a problem. But even despite those issues, HAL has been even slower. In manufacturing, the slowest component is called the critical bottleneck. Our bottleneck is HAL. Even when everything is done, HAL simply refuses to deliver the planes come what may.

 

[Akshat]

What about WhAp

Tata Kestrel is just another name for Tata WhAP.

 

[Dredd]

Cant expect that with unexperienced private sector. Wasteage of resources? With so much capacity to manufacture how much HAL has actually delivered? Roughly 3-4 aircrafts per year.

Not 100% but tata will have skilled manpower for such tasks. They are developing complete C295 along with airframes of Chinook, apache and some parts of F-16/F-18 as well. I am sure tata will come up will par prototype if not better compared to HAL. HAL is going to loose this one

 

[Dredd]

No HAL involvement will be 100% better. But unfortunately initial hand holding is required.

HAL influence will make Private sector lethargic

 

[sanket]

Not 100% but tata will have skilled manpower for such tasks. They are developing complete C295 along with airframes of Chinook, apache and some parts of F-16/F-18 as well. I am sure tata will come up will par prototype if not better compared to HAL. HAL is going to loose this one

TATA developing complete C295 ..........??? they are doing screw driving

 

[sanket]

If both DcPP are developing prototype then it make sense to have a different approach for both prototype(design philosophy) and select the best one, similar to what USA did with X-32 and X-35 plan. or China did with JXX, IF both are based on same model that ADA shares then it will be unfair to judge one upon other as it will be judge solely on avionics which can be updated on either one. Also it will be waste of resources making same prototype.

pvt havent developed any design till date, it will delay the project for new design

 

[Pad UwU]

I thought MoD would change against it's specs and announcing another delay to make it 6gen 😹😹😹 without any proven track record of operating, making and owning a real 5gen aircraft 🙃😜

 

[Akshat]

TATA developing complete C295 ..........??? they are doing screw driving

Even HAL is doing screw driving for that matter. Look at Tejas. Design is from ADA. Parts are imported or from private players. HAL is just assembling them (apart from making some parts on it's own, like other vendors are doing).

 

[Akshat]

If both DcPP are developing prototype then it make sense to have a different approach for both prototype(design philosophy) and select the best one, similar to what USA did with X-32 and X-35 plan. or China did with JXX, IF both are based on same model that ADA shares then it will be unfair to judge one upon other as it will be judge solely on avionics which can be updated on either one. Also it will be waste of resources making same prototype.

Considering the shoddy work HAL is doing, first priority is to get the plane going. Give them a basic design, and ask them to provide the best possible version in the given time frame and with the given money. Let them decide how they wanna approach the problem statement instead of dictating it from there on.

 

[Akshat]

pvt havent developed any design till date, it will delay the project for new design

Even HAL hasn't developed any design on it's own.

 

[adarsh kumar]

isn't the amca protoype finalised , does this mean AMCA ,will have to go throu Critical Design Review again , will it not extend the the already hard to achieve 2035 amca mk1 target ??

 

[Akshat]

Whatever GoI is doing, they are expecting Private players to leapfrog into becoming manufacturers. Given the complexity and expenses involved, I believe that a slow approach where they evolve from component maker to full subcontractors and finally manufacturers. The political leadership regardless of party affiliation wants to show results in a small time but that is not really possible. Will the GOI think like this or not I cannot say. But this is not unheard of for GOI as Dassault during old MMRCA proposed that Reliance makes the wings and HAL the rest of the fuselage of the license produced Rafales.

I disagree. Given the status of HAL, anyone starting from scratch would be easily able to leapfrog them in the near to mid term. And HAL will anyways be one of the players, so that will do whatever hedging is required. But I think most people will agree that private players can learn and move ahead far quicker. Look at Dhanush vs K9 for example. OFB is still struggling to deliver K9 while L&T has completed K9's deliveries and is now developing armored vehicles and tanks based on that experience. So give them a chance. HAL has already failed us. No one can do worse than that at least.

 

[Akshat]

There is no second company to develop and procure the AMCA. Better to setup the 2nd company in Tamil Nadu Defence Cordier and start the AMCA solely with production rate of 24 AC per annum and order for 240 nos in two batches of 120 each.

Without an open tender how can you say there is no second company?

 

[swatkats_razor]

Tata Kestrel was given a fair chance and it failed. So lets not promote something just because it's Indian. Still, orders have been given by CAPFs and further orders are expected even from the army. As for Striker, there is no evidence that it is cleared without any trials.

Tata Krstral Failed?
And stryker passed?
How?

 

[Akshat]

Tata Krstral Failed?
And stryker passed?
How?

I never said Stryker passed. So far it hasn't been ordered. No one in the Indian military or government has said it is being procured.

As of Kestral, it was thoroughly tested, some units even ordered by the army (LSP) but no orders placed. Mk2 has been developed now. This shows there surely were some limitations or failures. Detailed reports haven't been released but an army report did say that it failed in real battle scenarios.

 

[Nidhish debbarman]

Bro before bashing IAF get your facts straight. Trainers are of FOC standards. This certification was given in 2019. Since then no changes have been requested.

Yes, engines and other issues might be a problem. But even despite those issues, HAL has been even slower. In manufacturing, the slowest component is called the critical bottleneck. Our bottleneck is HAL. Even when everything is done, HAL simply refuses to deliver the planes come what may.

Don't misunderstood me my stance too is worrisome with the sloth speed HAL is working on. They aren't completing any given work on time which brings IAF to reconsider after getting the complete product. I m confused when TATA is already manufacturing Boeing aircraft parts in India why they aren't coming forward to participate in making aircrafts with foreign partners or with HAL.

Don't misunderstood me my stance too is worrisome with the sloth speed HAL is working on. They aren't completing any given work on time which brings IAF to reconsider after getting the complete product. I m confused when TATA is already manufacturing Boeing aircraft parts in India why they aren't coming forward to participate in making aircrafts with foreign partners or with HAL.

 

[swatkats_razor]

I never said Stryker passed. So far it hasn't been ordered.

I will happily watch you eat your words when Stryker is imported by our patriotic Import Army. All recent tailwinds point to immenent acquisition of the Strykers into IA. BTW IA itself has been lobbying for the General Dynamics that Strykers have proven amphibious capabilities.

As of Kestral, it was thoroughly tested, some units even ordered by the army (LSP) but no orders placed.

DRDO was the lead designer and TATA was the manufacturer.
If I were the Chairman of TATA Sons, I wouldn't put any more money into Indian defence.

Mk2 has been developed now. This shows there surely were some limitations or failures.

There is something called iterative evolution. World over, platforms are allowed to evolve.
HAL was allowed luxury of Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2 and what not.
Why does IA insist on extra-terrestrial perfection with anything coming of the Private sector alone?

 

[Dredd]

TATA developing complete C295 ..........??? they are doing screw driving

in that case what exactly is HAL manufacturing in LCA tejas, which exact sub assembly part it's manufacturing ? They are biggest screwdriver and they them self say it out loud.

 

[Dredd]

pvt havent developed any design till date, it will delay the project for new design

Like HAL is delivering all the projects on time, I can't even think of a single project that is delivered on time by HAL.

 

[tipoo2]

I wonder if we shouldn't just put the 20 billion dollars earmarked for MRFA, which some analysts say would be more like 34 billion dollars for the numbers desired, into more orders contingent on more production lines for Tejas and AMCA. Like, we'll double the expected Tejas MK2 orders to 420, but you have to start doubling the production lines right now ahead of it and delivering faster, and finalize that last order for MK1A as well. And this is still only two production lines for AMCA, same thing here, for the amount of cash saved would we be able to double it.

It would make a lean start to the decade as Tejas MK1A ramps, but we'd come out of it with greater numbers than a foreign jet order, much less foreign reserve spend, and more self reliant.

Part of me wonders if there's some method to the madness in dragging the competition along to see how Tejas MK2 shapes up.

 

[Strongman]

Without an engine you might as well fly paper planes……..are the planners that daft. The whole line of tejas is pending . have not been able to deliver a 4.5 gen plane but are talking about production of 5th gen………common guys get real. Build a plane around an engine you can have without being held hostage. Bridge the gap with what you have expertise on. Improve on it. Even if it the not so good RD series. Sometimes numbers can overwhelm enemy. India has enough manpower. Problem is that India has project manager in IT but chalta hai useless planners in other fields…..and a lot of false pride….that doesn’t win wars. And enough anti India and leftist enemies inside. Use a damn hammer.

 

[Sunil Choan]

Dreamers we will always be can't finish Kaveri for 40+ yrs. How can you even think or dream on upgrade on AMCA when we don't have Kaveri. Look at China they copied and are 30 yrs ahead of us