New Indo-French Engine for AMCA Fighter May Temporarily Forgo Adaptive Cycle Tech to Meet Critical Production Timelines

A potential collaboration between India and France to develop a new engine for the nation's future stealth fighter jet may prioritise production timelines over incorporating the most advanced, next-generation technology from the outset.

The proposed engine, intended for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), is expected to be co-developed by India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and French aerospace leader Safran.

According to individuals familiar with the negotiations, the new 120-kilonewton (kN) thrust engine may not initially feature an "adaptive cycle," a highly complex technology that allows an engine to alter its airflow for optimal efficiency at both subsonic and supersonic speeds.

Because this technology is not yet fully mature globally, the partners will likely focus on a more practical design that includes other sixth-generation features, such as a more durable and cooler-running engine core, ensuring a balance between high performance and technological readiness.

While Safran is widely considered the front-runner for this critical partnership, India's Ministry of Defence has not yet made a formal announcement confirming the selection. A final decision and the formalisation of the agreement are widely anticipated before the end of the current year.

This engine is crucial for the AMCA Mk2, the more advanced version of India's indigenous fifth-generation stealth fighter.

Sources indicate that the French company has proposed a timeline to deliver a production-ready engine within a period of 10 to 12 years. This schedule aligns with the projected start of AMCA Mk2 production, which is targeted for the mid-2030s.

Opting for a more conventional core at this stage is seen as a pragmatic step to prevent potential delays in the fighter jet's overall development schedule.

However, the agreement is expected to be structured to allow for future upgrades. India will likely retain the rights to modify the engine's core technology in the coming years.

This provision keeps the door open for developing a true adaptive cycle engine after 2040, which could be used to power future Indian combat aircraft, including a potential replacement for the Indian Air Force's large fleet of Su-30MKI jets.

In line with this long-term vision, GTRE has already initiated preliminary research into adaptive cycle technology in partnership with Indian academic institutions.

 

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[Mc Addy]

Who knows what is engine tech details but whatever this non sense is, it clear we have no engine anywhere near 2035.

 

[sanket]

Timeline promised 10+2 earlier, it was said it will meet AMCA Production Timeline 2035. It doesn't mean AMCA MK2 will be ready by 2037 to take flight with a 120 kN Engine that too without VCE. It's my words becoming True again.

Earlier, Safran haven't mentioned VCE Tech development, that's what I highlighted many times. It's the hallmark of a 6th Gen Engine. This is what Safran can do to win the Engine deal. Mark my words, if Safran wins on big big promise, neither the Engine will have VCE nor it will be production ready by 2037, AMCA MK2 will be delivered by 2040. The question is why to Invest 61000 cr if Safran is not capable of developing VCE Tech. RR should still be the front runner. Again, a separate program has to run indigenously to develop VCE Tech even after Investing money and valuable time with Safran.

There should be a clause in the contract, what the foreign partner has promised in the deal/contract. If failed to develop, a heavy penalty plus entire contract cost have to be paid by the winning foreign partner. This is how Safran milks the money. First, the project cost is escalated from 40000 cr to 61000 cr without VCE Tech. The difference between Safran's offer vs RR is just one year. 13 years for RR while Safran's is 10+2=12, and RR is committed to develop VCE.

 

[Flanker]

Invest in Kaveri to replace the F404 and get a deal with Safran for the M88-4 for Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.

 

[Harsh Raj]

Timeline promised 10+2 earlier, it was said it will meet AMCA Production Timeline 2035. It doesn't mean AMCA MK2 will be ready by 2037 to take flight with a 120 kN Engine that too without VCE. It's my words becoming True again.

Earlier, Safran haven't mentioned VCE Tech development, that's what I highlighted many times. It's the hallmark of a 6th Gen Engine. This is what Safran can do to win the Engine deal. Mark my words, if Safran wins on big big promise, neither the Engine will have VCE nor it will be production ready by 2037, AMCA MK2 will be delivered by 2040. The question is why to Invest 61000 cr if Safran is not capable of developing VCE Tech. RR should still be the front runner. Again, a separate program has to run indigenously to develop VCE Tech even after Investing money and valuable time with Safran.

There should be a clause in the contract, what the foreign partner has promised in the deal/contract. If failed to develop, a heavy penalty plus entire contract cost have to be paid by the winning foreign partner. This is how Safran milks the money. First, the project cost is escalated from 40000 cr to 61000 cr without VCE Tech. The difference between Safran's offer vs RR is just one year. 13 years for RR while Safran's is 10+2=12, and RR is committed to develop VCE.

Honestly, I am damn sure scientists and Air Force officials know better than us what critical tech and components are required for an engine, and we, as normal civilians, will never get to know the reality behind these big deals. You should know that the reality which is being served to us is just the tip of the iceberg, and there are multiple things going on behind the doors. If IAF and ADE think that despite these challenges, Safran is best, then Safran is best.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

It will be one of the most hi-tech engine ever produced with power of 120KN even surpassing F414s 98KN

 

[Rinku Pandey]

Invest in Kaveri to replace the F404 and get a deal with Safran for the M88-4 for Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.

Why not Kaveri 2.0 for Tejas mk2 and AMCA?

 

[Sunny]

Adaptive cycle engines are still under development only by US and F-47 will likely be the first fighter operational with it. Its best to focus on 5th gen engine with some elements of 6th gen engine which will still be very advanced and better than anything developed by China or Russia.

 

[Avada kedavra]

Is this why France agreed to 100% ToT? Because they realised after two to three decades, all tech except for adaptive variable cycle would become obsolete?

 

[Scronkfinkle]

You will forgo the adaptive cycle in 6th gen engine design for some ordinary cooling; most ridiculous. This is already looking like a farce. A deal with Safran, who doesn't have the wherewithal to do any 6th gen engine features, the deal should be with RR, and no design without the adaptive cycle should be accepted for 6th gen engines.

 

[Sandeep]

Why not Kaveri 2.0 for Tejas mk2 and AMCA?

The 80% technology transferred to us and manufacturing the same amount of the F414 indigenously will negate the need to develop a brand new engine. We can always increase the thrust level, make engine changes or upgrades to improve its performance even more in future if we wanted to.

Also we can use our indigenous engine that we will develop for the AMCA on the Tejas MK1A and MK2. We might need to make some changes to install it on the Tejas jets like its air frame, structure and rearrange some wiring, pipes, parts and components.

What we actually need to do is develop an indigenous engine and alternative to the F404. But we can also install the F414 engine to the jet by making some structural modifications to the Tejas MK1A jet.

 

[Sandeep]

If developing a VCE for the AMCA engine will take a longer time to develop then we should drop it for now as we are only developing a 5.5th generation engine with some added 6th generation technology and a VCE is mainly going to be used in a 6th generation engine and fighter jet.

It’s also possible that we can modify or upgrade the future 5.5th generation engine to develop, manufacture and install a VCE at later stages. It’s much better that we develop the critical basics first as this will be a first time that we will be developing an engine and it’s important that we 100% indigenously design, develop and manufacture it. This will increase our knowledge, skills, experience and expertise in developing future upgrades and solutions.

 

[vinod kumar nair]

Without adaptive cycle it's injustice to taxpayer

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Timeline promised 10+2 earlier, it was said it will meet AMCA Production Timeline 2035. It doesn't mean AMCA MK2 will be ready by 2037 to take flight with a 120 kN Engine that too without VCE. It's my words becoming True again.

Earlier, Safran haven't mentioned VCE Tech development, that's what I highlighted many times. It's the hallmark of a 6th Gen Engine. This is what Safran can do to win the Engine deal. Mark my words, if Safran wins on big big promise, neither the Engine will have VCE nor it will be production ready by 2037, AMCA MK2 will be delivered by 2040. The question is why to Invest 61000 cr if Safran is not capable of developing VCE Tech. RR should still be the front runner. Again, a separate program has to run indigenously to develop VCE Tech even after Investing money and valuable time with Safran.

There should be a clause in the contract, what the foreign partner has promised in the deal/contract. If failed to develop, a heavy penalty plus entire contract cost have to be paid by the winning foreign partner. This is how Safran milks the money. First, the project cost is escalated from 40000 cr to 61000 cr without VCE Tech. The difference between Safran's offer vs RR is just one year. 13 years for RR while Safran's is 10+2=12, and RR is committed to develop VCE.

Only 2 American prototypes have ACE technology (GE XA100, PW XA102), and the US Air Force refused to install them in the F-35, as previously assumed. These engines are much larger than the GE 414.

RR does not even have an ACE prototype, and the rights to the EJ200 engine belong to 4 countries from EuroJet Turbo GmbH, and not just Britain.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

You will forgo the adaptive cycle in 6th gen engine design for some ordinary cooling; most ridiculous. This is already looking like a farce. A deal with Safran, who doesn't have the wherewithal to do any 6th gen engine features, the deal should be with RR, and no design without the adaptive cycle should be accepted for 6th gen engines.

RR hasn't made a single fighter engine since the Spey without another European countries. Both the RB 199 and the EJ200 were built by a consortium that included RR, MTU and Fiat Aviazione (Avio). Snecma handled the M88 alone, and the French engine had been tested earlier then EJ200. The M88 itself was more compact than the EJ200.
The M88 is a slightly more fuel efficient engine with a lower IR signature.

 

[Vipul Kumar]

DRDO chief once told that we can develop 5th gen engine on our own, the only issue will be it will take some extra time. Then, in my opinion, make the 5th gen engine on your own, don't involve any foreign partner. Only involve them in 6th generation engine development. If DRDO wants to develop 5th gen then 6th gen, develop 5th on your own and for 6th go with Rolls Royce.

 

[Patriot24]

I see that the article claims that the deal with Safran hasn’t been announced yet but the Defense Minister Rajnath Singh Ji has already confirmed that in a function yesterday. It’s gonna be Safran!!

 

[Dranzer Knight]

Looking at the timeline I would say it’s fine what we need right now is a 5th generation engine so as long as we are getting that it’s fine because the adaptive cycle technology hasn’t been fully developed yet not even with the US so our current focus should be to get our own engine and once we have that we can work on future technologies