Price Remains Key Sticking Point as India, Qatar Rekindle 2005 Mirage Jet Talks

India and Qatar have re-entered discussions regarding the potential sale of 12 Mirage-2000-5 fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF). This marks a revival of negotiations that first took place nearly two decades ago, in 2005. At that time, the deal fell through due to disagreements over the price, with Qatar reportedly sought $62 million per jet, while India offered only $58 million.

In the current round of talks, Qatar has presented a slightly lower price of $59.82 million per jet, but India is still pushing for further discounts, citing the fact that the aircraft now have only approximately 30% of their operational life remaining. If the deal goes through, these jets would augment the IAF's existing fleet of 48 Mirage-2000-5 Standard aircraft, bringing the total to 60 units.

The acquisition of these used Mirage jets would help alleviate the fighter jet shortage currently faced by the IAF, which has been caused by the phasing out of older MiG planes. Furthermore, the Qatari offer reportedly includes missiles and spare engines, adding to the deal's appeal.

While the talks are ongoing, a final decision is yet to be made. India is reportedly seeking a further reduction in the price per jet before committing to the purchase. The IAF intends to keep the Mirage-2000-5 fleet operational until 2035, when it will be replaced by the indigenously developed Tejas MkII jets.

This potential deal reflects India's ongoing efforts to modernize its air force and address its fighter jet shortage. The outcome of the negotiations will be closely watched by defense analysts and observers, as it could have significant implications for India's air power capabilities.

 

[rtnguy]

Lol the same Mirage 2005's which were jammed by PAF AWACS in operation Swift Retort.

 

[Mithun Raj]

The 4th or 5th largest economy in the world having 2 nuclear powers as enemies in the border who are waiting for an opportunity to cross the border is going for 30 to 40 years old fighters. Not even God can save this country. Yesterday it was jaquar air frames today used Mirages. We are short of minimum 15 squadrons as of now and more to follow. What a shame. LCA2 no were in sight. Only boosting nothing on the ground.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

is it not better to buy new Mig 35 fighters at equal or perhaps lesser price?

Mig 35 is an upgrade for the mig25, which was a beast of a plane. Super fast, and good payload capacity.

Mig 35 is also similar, very fast, good payload capacity. Russians are using them to launch the kinzhal aerobalistic missile. But they also require lot of fuel and it has 0 stealth. Any decent air superiority fighter will see it coming from hundreds of km away.

In short, we dont have a need for an aircraft like mig35

 

[Shafted mohammed]

That is if you see them as an investment. If you see them as a tool, then they dont really lose much value over time.

A 10-20 year old car can still get you from A to B. It might have lower fuel efficiency, older tech etc. But it still does its job.

The thing is that, cars are not designed to last 30-40 years. Fighter jets are designed to last 40 years at minimum. Also, you can increase their life through proper maintenance.

A 30 year old mirage 2000 can still bomb any area you want, do dogfights etc. That capability is still very valuable. Air forcce wants that capability and it is willing to pay for it.

But has an air to air missile MICA which can be shot down by any Pakistani fighter. Criminal waste of money like the Mirage 2000 avionics upgrade. Some one is making huge money under the table. Do few terminations in HAL and generate an extra squadron of Tejas MK 1 A. The right price of these vintage fighters as they are flyable is total of 100 million for all 12.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

But has an air to air missile MICA which can be shot down by any Pakistani fighter. Criminal waste of money like the Mirage 2000 avionics upgrade. Some one is making huge money under the table. Do few terminations in HAL and generate an extra squadron of Tejas MK 1 A. The right price of these vintage fighters as they are flyable is total of 100 million for all 12.

you are talking nonsense and conspiracy theories.

today, with so much demand for fighters, good luck buying 12 4th gen supersonic multirole fighters for 100million.

 

[Sandeep]

The 4th or 5th largest economy in the world having 2 nuclear powers as enemies in the border who are waiting for an opportunity to cross the border is going for 30 to 40 years old fighters. Not even God can save this country. Yesterday it was jaquar air frames today used Mirages. We are short of minimum 15 squadrons as of now and more to follow. What a shame. LCA2 no were in sight. Only boosting nothing on the ground.

We have nuclear weapons ourselves which is why they can’t attack India! Indigenous jet program are ongoing but delayed for various reasons.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Tech obsolescence is a major worry.

well, these aircraft are only meant to go and drop bombs. they are not meant to run interception and air superiority missions and take out enemy fighters. We have advanced aircrafts like rafale, Su30MKI and tejas for that. What we are lacking right now are numbers. These 12 fighters are a stopgap solution until tejas mk1a and 2 are available in large numbers

 

[Sandeep]

Lol the same Mirage 2005's which were jammed by PAF AWACS in operation Swift Retort.

No they didn’t jam those jets but only the Mig 21 jets which didn’t have any encrypted radios installed as they were going to be retired soon.

 

[Taus Melek]

This is really sad and embarrassing. As pointed out by writers below. India wants to aquire these long-in-the-thooth aircraft. What idiot in the MoD/defence ministry ok'd this proposal (we need names). And did the defence minister agree to this proposal, if he did then he has taken leave of his senses and is clearly not fit to hold the position of defence minister.

 

[Sandeep]

What a load of rubbish! The Qatari people are nothing but blood drinkers!

If the mirage cost around $62 back then they are now asking us to pay around $60 for a jet that’s 20yrs old? The jet would cost less than $5 at most because the technology is older and the air frame lifespan has reduced to a significant amount. Also trying to upgrade the technology and equipment to make it compatible with our air force will cost more as well.

We need to increase/maintain the number of squadrons and this deal might achieve that until we start receiving the Tejas MK2 jets. We could also temporarily use them as an inferior version of our Mirage jets to reduce the purchase and upgrade costs as using them is still better than using a Mig 21.

But these negotiations will take the usual lengthy amount of time as each jet needs to be inspected in detail, test flown, inspect service and repair records etc. We should not hurry up or rush this deal though as we can still buy some from Greece and Taiwan who are retiring their jets and we can get a good deal from them.

 

[Dredd]

A 30 year old mirage 2000 still retains its core air to ground and air to air capability. Depreciation only affects its total years in service. Depreciation does not affect its capability by much.

even mig 27 can do those roles, does it mean IAF should look for mig 27

 

[Indian1ST.]

you are forgeting to factor in inflation.

Gupta take a break even Indonesia rejected these over priced Qatari jets. Not worth even 10milliom each.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Gupta take a break even Indonesia rejected these over priced Qatari jets. Not worth even 10milliom each.

dude, India and indonesia are in vastly different circumstances.
1) India already operates a sizeable number of mirage 2000.
2) India is running a deficit in the number of fighters it has. It needs many more.
3) India is rapidly bulding capicity to manufacture fighters domestically but it will take 5-6 years to get going. India is retiring large number of fighters in the 2030s. So it needs to plan for that.
4)India already has experience in upgrading mirage 2000s, is familiar with its weapon systems and maintenance and so can upgrade them.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

even mig 27 can do those roles, does it mean IAF should look for mig 27

IAF retired the Mig27 it had. In fact HAL had locally produced them. But there were lots of problems with them so they were retired.

 

[Sudha]

A 30 year old mirage 2000 still retains its core air to ground and air to air capability. Depreciation only affects its total years in service. Depreciation does not affect its capability by much.

A museum piece eventhough it is a capable aircraft, the price ahould be around $25-30 million at the maximum. Depreciation does affect since its already mentioned only 30% of life is remaining.

 

[Sudha]

dude, that is not 4% less. I used an inflation calculator to calculate this- $62,000,000 of buying power in 2004 equals $103,082,466.91 in May. 2024.

So, the discount is over 40% not 4%.

Funny logic. First you include inflation then use depreciation. It should be 30% of original price.

 

[Sudha]

dude, India and indonesia are in vastly different circumstances.
1) India already operates a sizeable number of mirage 2000.
2) India is running a deficit in the number of fighters it has. It needs many more.
3) India is rapidly bulding capicity to manufacture fighters domestically but it will take 5-6 years to get going. India is retiring large number of fighters in the 2030s. So it needs to plan for that.
4)India already has experience in upgrading mirage 2000s, is familiar with its weapon systems and maintenance and so can upgrade them.

Adding more criteria to justify the price?

 

[Sudha]

Gupta take a break even Indonesia rejected these over priced Qatari jets. Not worth even 10milliom each.

You are right, he is using his own logic for the price. Nowhere in the world does one use this logic.

 

[Sudha]

Capacities are been added it may reach 28 to 30 per jet after couple of years so If IAF place follow-on order 97+18 it will good.Just see Scorpene Follow-on order is stuck for anoter 5 years & India needs Subs Badly.if it was place 9 Subs at one go every year one sub would have been delivered.

Capacity to assemble 16 planes was already there for tejasmk1 but HAL on an average bearly delivered 4 aircrafts per year. Still there are some trainers to be delivered out of the first lot of 40 jets contracted for. It is very shameful for an organisation which existed before independence. But HAL does not have "shameful" in their dictionary.

 

[Sudha]

The 4th or 5th largest economy in the world having 2 nuclear powers as enemies in the border who are waiting for an opportunity to cross the border is going for 30 to 40 years old fighters. Not even God can save this country. Yesterday it was jaquar air frames today used Mirages. We are short of minimum 15 squadrons as of now and more to follow. What a shame. LCA2 no were in sight. Only boosting nothing on the ground.

That is why I always criticise HAL. If they were efficient such a security lapse wouldn't have existed. All thanks to scamgress for making them lazy & labour unions strong.

 

[Sudha]

We have nuclear weapons ourselves which is why they can’t attack India! Indigenous jet program are ongoing but delayed for various reasons.

Delayed due to inefficient HAL which finds excuses & blames others. Latest they blamed the western OEM for shortage of aero engines to deliver on time inspite of knowing that the OEM has stopped production of that variant.

 

[bonito]

How can Tejas mk2 replace mirage by 2035 ?That would mean like around 60 - 70 assemble lines Mk1A, mk2, amca, Cats warrior, Ghatak, tedbf and other on going upgrade projects.

 

[Anurag]

dude, India and indonesia are in vastly different circumstances.
1) India already operates a sizeable number of mirage 2000.
2) India is running a deficit in the number of fighters it has. It needs many more.
3) India is rapidly bulding capicity to manufacture fighters domestically but it will take 5-6 years to get going. India is retiring large number of fighters in the 2030s. So it needs to plan for that.
4)India already has experience in upgrading mirage 2000s, is familiar with its weapon systems and maintenance and so can upgrade them.

Good points but one question if we are really ready to spend over 50 million then why not order brand new SU-30mki!!
Just can't understand the obsession with the old jets or retired jets...
As we operate upgraded version of Mirages are we really going to upgrade these jets? We have experience but with the help of Dassault and we know how costly it was so you are really suggesting this upgrade should be done?

 

[Rah]

This could be the payoff - 2-3 mil per navy personnel released. Thats maybe why they hv held back one.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Good points but one question if we are really ready to spend over 50 million then why not order brand new SU-30mki!!
Just can't understand the obsession with the old jets or retired jets...
As we operate upgraded version of Mirages are we really going to upgrade these jets? We have experience but with the help of Dassault and we know how costly it was so you are really suggesting this upgrade should be done?

We are already ordering 12 new Su30MKI. And upgrade of around 80 older Su30MKI to super sukhoi standard.

The reason for this supposed obsession with older jets is that India already has expertise of operating these jets. We know about maintenance, weapons, spare parts engines, pilot training etc. If we buy older jets, we can make use of this expertise.

You need to understand that IAF operates at squadron level. A squadron which previously operated mirage 2000 jets, cant just start operating Su30 jets tomorrow. It will be much easier if we can find more mirage 2000 jets for that squadron

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Adding more criteria to justify the price?

No, giving justification for why this deal makes sense for India and not for indonesia

 

[Deepak Hegde]

A 30 year old mirage 2000 still retains its core air to ground and air to air capability. Depreciation only affects its total years in service. Depreciation does not affect its capability by much.

Seriously ! Depreciation does not affect it's capability by much ?? Its not at one place and service . Over twenty years of use it's undergoing fatigue ! That's why it is depreciation!!

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Seriously ! Depreciation does not affect it's capability by much ?? Its not at one place and service . Over twenty years of use it's undergoing fatigue ! That's why it is depreciation!!

Fighter aircrafts undergo very rigorous maintenance. And every 15 years or so undergo an overhaul to replace engines etc. Fighter jets are designed for 35-40 year service life. Deprecation means very different thing for a fighter jet. It retains its core capabilities. It may lose some fuel efficiency or range, but it will still perform its function for its entire service life. That is what it is designed for.

 

[Sandeep]

Delayed due to inefficient HAL which finds excuses & blames others. Latest they blamed the western OEM for shortage of aero engines to deliver on time inspite of knowing that the OEM has stopped production of that variant.

Which engine? There was a delay in developing the Tejas Mk2 because we needed to make an engine deal for the GE F414 engines. Production for the F404 engines was delayed slightly as GE couldn’t manufacture enough of the engines as they hit their maximum production capability per year. But HAL has created delays in not assembling and certifying the Tejas MK1A jets quickly enough . They have also made delays for not developing and manufacturing enough Tejas trainer jets which is a priority as it takes years to train a combat pilot.

 

[Anurag]

We are already ordering 12 new Su30MKI. And upgrade of around 80 older Su30MKI to super sukhoi standard.

The reason for this supposed obsession with older jets is that India already has expertise of operating these jets. We know about maintenance, weapons, spare parts engines, pilot training etc. If we buy older jets, we can make use of this expertise.

You need to understand that IAF operates at squadron level. A squadron which previously operated mirage 2000 jets, cant just start operating Su30 jets tomorrow. It will be much easier if we can find more mirage 2000 jets for that squadron

Wow what a logic man so you are saying pilots can't be trained and their are already readymade pilots available for the mirage??
we operate SU-30MKI around 260 still we can't train these pilots while mirage is around 50 we have ready made pilots available for them I don't know that Qatar is offering ready made pilots too with the jets!!
simple logic is if we wants jets then why can't we order jet newly that will help in building the ecosystem and surely help our forces and we have already old and absolute airforce!! Why making it more worse!! Just poor planning!!