Russia Offers F-22 Style Stealth Flat Nozzle Co-development for India's AMCA, Contingent on Selecting its 5th-Gen Izdeliye 177S Engine

Russia Offers F-22 Style Stealth Flat Nozzle Co-development for India's AMCA, Contingent on Selecting its 5th-Gen Izdeliye 177S Engine


In a potentially pivotal move for India's futuristic fighter jet program, Russia has proposed a joint effort to develop an advanced flat engine nozzle for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). This offer, however, is conditional upon India selecting Russia's new Izdeliye 177S engine to power the aircraft.

The proposal, stemming from talks initiated during the Aero India 2025 exposition and continuing through subsequent negotiations, highlights Russia's keen interest in deepening its longstanding defence relationship with India and equipping the AMCA with sophisticated stealth technology.

The Izdeliye 177S, described as a fifth-generation engine incorporating technology from the AL-51 (Izdeliye 30) developed for Russia's Su-57 fighter, presents India with a powerful option for its indigenous stealth aircraft.

India's AMCA project, a collaborative effort between the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), aims to produce a fifth-generation fighter featuring stealth characteristics, the ability to cruise faster than sound without afterburners (supercruise), and integrated advanced sensor systems for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Central to achieving these ambitious goals is the choice of engine, which needs to deliver significant thrust while maintaining stealth and fuel efficiency.

The initial version, AMCA Mark 1, is planned to use the American General Electric F414 engine (producing 98 kN thrust). However, for the more advanced AMCA Mark 2, the IAF requires a more powerful engine, ideally generating 110-130 kN of thrust, potentially co-developed or produced domestically, to enable superior performance and supercruise capabilities. Russia's Izdeliye 177S engine, reportedly capable of 142 kN thrust with afterburner and designed with stealth features, significantly surpasses these requirements.

The Izdeliye 177S engine is being developed by Russia's United Engine Corporation (UEC), part of the Rostec state corporation. It incorporates next-generation technologies, some adapted from the AL-51 (Izdeliye 30) engine currently being integrated into Russia's Su-57 "Felon" fighter. The AL-51 represents a major advancement in Russian engine technology, offering better fuel economy, increased thrust relative to its weight, and design features that reduce its visibility to radar and infrared sensors.

Building on this, the 177S reportedly offers a much longer operational lifespan of up to 6,000 hours—a threefold increase compared to the AL-31FP engines used in India's current Su-30 MKI fighters—and includes stealth-treated thrust vector control (TVC) nozzles.

Significantly, the new Russian proposal for the AMCA involves replacing the standard circular nozzle with a flat, two-dimensional (2D) design, similar to that used on the American F-22 Raptor, specifically to enhance the AMCA's stealth properties.

Flat or 2D engine nozzles are considered a key feature of modern stealth aircraft design. They help reduce an aircraft's detectability by scattering radar waves differently than round nozzles and by shaping and cooling the engine exhaust plume more effectively, thereby reducing its infrared signature.

Russia's offer to co-develop this specific nozzle technology with India aligns with 'Make in India' policy. Such a partnership could see Indian engineers from HAL and DRDO collaborating directly with UEC specialists to adapt the nozzle for the AMCA airframe, possibly incorporating Indian materials and control systems. This collaboration could also facilitate valuable technology transfer, significantly boosting India's indigenous capabilities in aerospace and engine technology.

Despite the potential advantages, the Russian proposal includes notable risks. The Izdeliye 177S engine has not yet been extensively tested in flight conditions, with reports suggesting Rostec is awaiting confirmed orders before proceeding with comprehensive trials. This approach, combined with the known development delays experienced by the related AL-51 engine and the impact of ongoing international sanctions on Russia's defence industry, raises concerns about timely delivery and performance validation.

Furthermore, integrating a significantly heavier and more powerful engine (142 kN) like the 177S, along with a new flat nozzle, into the AMCA airframe – originally designed around the lighter GE F414 – would likely require substantial modifications. These changes could lead to increased aircraft weight, development costs, and potential delays to the AMCA program, which currently aims for induction between 2032 and 2035.

Relying heavily on Russian technology also presents strategic considerations for India, which has been seeking to diversify its defence acquisitions.

So, India faces a complex decision. Adopting the flat nozzle technology could significantly improve the AMCA's stealth capabilities, providing a crucial advantage against advanced aircraft operated by regional neighbours, such as China's J-20 and developmental J-36 fighters.

Joint development could also provide India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) with invaluable experience, aiding its long-term objective of achieving self-sufficiency in aero-engine technology.

However, India must carefully evaluate this offer against other possibilities. France's Safran has previously proposed collaborating on a 110 kN engine based on the Rafale's M88 engine core, and the United States might potentially offer advanced engine technology as part of broader strategic alignments.

Russia's proposal offers the allure of readily available fifth-generation engine power and co-production opportunities, but its viability depends crucially on factors like technological maturity, reliable timelines, mutual trust, and seamless technical integration.
 
Please compare the size of GE 414 and Izdeliye 117S. It's a difference of day and night. Izdeliye 117S can't even fit into AMCA, so what's all about this proposal? I know it's probably a filler article with no actual offer, but at least be factually correct!
 
Please compare the size of GE 414 and Izdeliye 117S. It's a difference of day and night. Izdeliye 117S can't even fit into AMCA, so what's all about this proposal? I know it's probably a filler article with no actual offer, but at least be factually correct!
They are not comparable. In the current form, it is more like F119 used in F22. If it is selected, it will be a new design and dimensions will match those of AMCA.
 
They are not comparable. In the current form, it is more like F119 used in F22. If it is selected, it will be a new design and dimensions will match those of AMCA.
What should actually be done is a joint production of a new engine (maybe flat nozzled and based on AL-51 stealth standards), which can replace GE-414. So basically, ditch Safran and RR, as honestly, I don't have high hopes from them that they would give us the actual technology. Russia, I still feel, might give us if we give them proper money!
 
Russia wants us badly for the money. They have already sold thrust vectoring technology to the Chinese. The latest version of the J-10 has a thrust vectoring ability directly copied from the Su-35, which China imported. They imported it just to copy all the tech, which they promptly did. That J-10 can do any maneuver that the Su-30MKI can. We suffered greatly due to engine maintenance problems initially with the Su-30MKI. It's a given fact that Russia is a generation behind the West in avionics and engine tech. It's a better bet to go with total TOT with some Western engine. By the by, though there is a certain amount of IR suppression due to the flat nozzle, there is a considerable 8% thrust loss due to the flat nozzle geometry.
 
Please compare the size of GE 414 and Izdeliye 117S. It's a difference of day and night. Izdeliye 117S can't even fit into AMCA, so what's all about this proposal? I know it's probably a filler article with no actual offer, but at least be factually correct!
They asked for co development of flat nozzels not the entire engine.
 
Please compare the size of GE 414 and Izdeliye 117S. It's a difference of day and night. Izdeliye 117S can't even fit into AMCA, so what's all about this proposal? I know it's probably a filler article with no actual offer, but at least be factually correct!
Miniature version/Scale down variant of Hotcore section from Izdeliye-177s may be developed for AMCA Engine. Rest GTRE will develop. Even if RR is selected as a foreign partner the work share agreement may be max 25% by RR & rest 75% by GTRE. Bharat needs only 20 to 25% tech, mostly "Hot core". Work is on whatever GTRE can develop for AMCA Engine. Already "Flat Rate Tech" is being developed.
 
50 years and crores of rupees from now the useless Babus in accountability free jobs will have 1000s of excuses about why India got absolutely nothing. That is if the Government is stupid enough to keep throwing good money after bad.
Make GTRE solely responsible for delivering a domestic jet engine and associated IP, fire the idiots running it today and replace them with the CEO of Sky Root. That is the only way forward. The HAL/ADA/DRDO has made India the laughing stock of the aviation world.
 
We want the 177S engine or AL51 with a flat nozzle for Super Sukhoi upgradation and the Su57 stealth fighter. AMCA is going ahead with the GE F414 and subsequent 110kN joint development with GE.
 
Let AMCA proceed with GE414.

In parallel, let redesign AMCA around. Of course, it will not be medium class anymore.

AMCA later can be used for Navy.
 
Russia wants us badly for the money. They have already sold thrust vectoring technology to the Chinese. The latest version of the J-10 has a thrust vectoring ability directly copied from the Su-35, which China imported. They imported it just to copy all the tech, which they promptly did. That J-10 can do any maneuver that the Su-30MKI can. We suffered greatly due to engine maintenance problems initially with the Su-30MKI. It's a given fact that Russia is a generation behind the West in avionics and engine tech. It's a better bet to go with total TOT with some Western engine. By the by, though there is a certain amount of IR suppression due to the flat nozzle, there is a considerable 8% thrust loss due to the flat nozzle geometry.
FYI The Glass Fibre Plastic tech (of Izdeliye-30 AL-51) is a GENERATION ahead of the existing Metals/Alloys. I ALSO know that the Flat Nozzle has an average thrust reduction of 7-8% BUT WE will collaborate with Russia to get a higher thrust version of the 51. Currently the 51 (I-30) produces 37.5K pounds wid AFTERBURNER. If increased it's Dry thrust by 3K pounds more, the Afterburning thrust will ofc increase to 40.5K pounds.
 
50 years and crores of rupees from now the useless Babus in accountability free jobs will have 1000s of excuses about why India got absolutely nothing. That is if the Government is stupid enough to keep throwing good money after bad.
Make GTRE solely responsible for delivering a domestic jet engine and associated IP, fire the idiots running it today and replace them with the CEO of Sky Root. That is the only way forward. The HAL/ADA/DRDO has made India the laughing stock of the aviation world.
We tried to jump ahead for developing engine tech. We thought without appearing for 10th boards we will directly go for JEE. Before developing Kaveri we should have developed lower KN engines for our trainers and Jaguars. Around 48 KN dry thrust is a slow achievement but not many countries can do that.
 
The EJ-200 is primarily based off of a Rolls Royce design. RR have the capabilities.
EJ200 is based on RR’s XG-40, it seems RR wanted to design the new engine based on EJ200, XG-40 is 80’s tech like SNECMA M-88.
 
Russia's whole jet engine program started by reverse-engineering British jet engine.
Only one engine Klimov VK-1 engine was reverse enginered from Rolls Royce Nene and used in MIG 15 and 17, they developed other engines using captured german scientists after WW2, just like US did, they also developed a lot of other engines themselves from the scratch.
 
Now issue is even if we involve it with Russia same tech will be with Chinese within short time. And if we avoid them atleast they will be competitors with China. New research always by self not shared. And for new tech we may get transfer of technology no problem.
 
FYI The Glass Fibre Plastic tech (of Izdeliye-30 AL-51) is a GENERATION ahead of the existing Metals/Alloys. I ALSO know that the Flat Nozzle has an average thrust reduction of 7-8% BUT WE will collaborate with Russia to get a higher thrust version of the 51. Currently the 51 (I-30) produces 37.5K pounds wid AFTERBURNER. If increased it's Dry thrust by 3K pounds more, the Afterburning thrust will ofc increase to 40.5K pounds.
Thanks for the info on the glass fibre, I was not aware. Selection of the engine depends upon the IAF and government finally. Do join in to share your knowledge in this blog. But the AMCA engine bay seems to be designed for the likes of Western engines as far as I know. The Russian engine is massively powerful and can only fit in Su-30 type platforms I think.
 
If Russia offered anything but the turbofan engines its better. Engines are the weakest point in all russian aircrafts.

There are few things Russia can offer as technology that we would buy
  1. Zircon Missile aka Brahmos 2 ( they have not transferred tech yet )
  2. EW suite
  3. IR sensors
  4. Thermobaric warheads
  5. Nuclear propulsion
  6. Metallurgy
  7. Wind tunnel technology
 

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