Safran Leads India's AMCA Engine Race with Full Technology Transfer Proposal

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French aerospace giant Safran has emerged as a frontrunner in the competition to provide the engine for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.

The company has made a bold move by offering a complete technology transfer (ToT), including Intellectual Property Rights (IPR), for the co-development of a new 6th generation engine specifically designed for the AMCA.

This proposal sets Safran apart from competitors like General Electric and Rolls-Royce, who have not offered such comprehensive ToT terms.

With 100% ToT, India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and its domestic partners will gain the expertise to manufacture the jet engine entirely within the country, fostering long-term self-reliance and the ability to modify and adapt the engine to future needs.

Safran's offer goes beyond existing engine models like the M-88 used in Rafale jets. The proposed engine aims to meet India's ambitious specifications, including 75kN of dry thrust and 110-130kN of wet thrust.

Such a powerful engine could not only power the AMCA MkII and potential 6th generation fighter jets but also be a future upgrade option for the Tejas MkII and Rafale.

This strategic move by Safran aims to establish a long-term partnership with India and position the company as a preferred supplier for future Indian fighter jet programs.

By enabling India to achieve self-reliance in jet engine technology, Safran is betting on a mutually beneficial relationship that could extend beyond the AMCA program.

While Safran's offer is undoubtedly enticing, India is expected to carefully evaluate proposals from all contenders before making a final decision. Factors like cost, engine performance, and the experience of each manufacturer will play a crucial role in the selection process.
 
I disagree. Any development has most to do with motivation. GoI has literally provided as much fund as GTRE asked for over the last many decades. What is lacking is motivation and a reason to develop. Why would anyone burn the midnight oil when they will get the same salary and fixed promotions whether the program is a success or a failure?
I want to share something with u... We were facing some trouble in one development.. When I studied it I found this problem exist since 1945 the time when british, American soviet and Japanese were in race and everybody had there own pro and cons .. I took a call to develop a fresh and i faced resistance from top to bottom most level of industry with only one reason..this has been established since1945..every change call for man machine method resources and money and getting all is not small task.. After 4 years people says it was a good move on.. But i know how we as a team faced in that 4 yrs.. Trust me sometimes money become immaterial..all u need is someone who says usne bola kr do to kr do loss hoga to dekh lenge
 
Well if people don’t know the facts then it’s not my job. Show me a single source that says that France didn’t meet their offset targets (after the deadline was passed).

CAG stopped posting defence reports on their website after 2017

Now provide your proof to support your claim that France met all offset target on time. Your claim require proof too. Onus lies on both sides, not just on me.
 

CAG stopped posting defence reports on their website after 2017

Now provide your proof to support your claim that France met all offset target on time. Your claim require proof too. Onus lies on both sides, not just on me.
They never met their offset clauses and that's the reason defence ministry removed offset clauses from future deals because noone was fulfilling it
 
We need to develop new engine based on the Kaveri only. if we parachute one more engine, the same story of HF24 Marut will repeat for Tejas and AMCA
 
I want to share something with u... We were facing some trouble in one development.. When I studied it I found this problem exist since 1945 the time when british, American soviet and Japanese were in race and everybody had there own pro and cons .. I took a call to develop a fresh and i faced resistance from top to bottom most level of industry with only one reason..this has been established since1945..every change call for man machine method resources and money and getting all is not small task.. After 4 years people says it was a good move on.. But i know how we as a team faced in that 4 yrs.. Trust me sometimes money become immaterial..all u need is someone who says usne bola kr do to kr do loss hoga to dekh lenge
Exactly my point. Only someone with an incentive will have that attitude. No one would do that if the job and salary is fixed and they won’t have a stake in the project’s success.
 

CAG stopped posting defence reports on their website after 2017

Now provide your proof to support your claim that France met all offset target on time. Your claim require proof too. Onus lies on both sides, not just on me.
I knew you would come up with this instance, and that’s why I mentioned specifically in my comment.

Please read the article. Firstly, it’s from 2020. The time frame to fulfill offsets ends in 2023.

Secondly, the article claims that the offer was made by Dassault and MBDA, but DRDO wanted help with Kaveri. How are they supposed to do that? That help can only be provided by Safran, no? So it was DRDO’s mistake, assuming the article is not paraphrasing it wrongly.

As for proof, one can provide proof only for what’s abnormal. If offsets were not fulfilled then it would have been a news. However, as I mentioned, MBDA was fined by MoD. The fine was less than 1 million usd. As per DPP, the fine can be of up to 5%, if the annual offsets are delayed (but the project offset date is not over). This means a maximum default of 20 million Euro. The total offsets were almost 4 billion Euros, spread over 4 years. So in 2 years, that makes it 2 billion Euros. So a miss of 20 million Euros, that also challenged, against 2 billion Euros. That means they met 99% of their obligations.

 
After all these years we have USA offering 80% and now suddenly safran jumps with a 100% offer.
But to make a new engine means we will be doing most of the funding to retain the ipr while also taking a risk of failure.
I would suggest to go ahead and test kaveri while using whatever knowledge we have gathered to make a new engine meanwhile go ahead with GE.
The US offer is just for manufacturing a set number of engines. There is no IPR and the given tech can't be sold to anyone else or even the number of engines can't be increased if need be, without US permission. We gain no developmental knowledge either.

Safran offer is entirely different and involves complete freehand, in return for money and royalties of course.

As for Kaveri, it is not fit for any usage as of now.
 
We need to develop new engine based on the Kaveri only. if we parachute one more engine, the same story of HF24 Marut will repeat for Tejas and AMCA
Kaveri is not usable as of now. And GTRE can't make it work.
 
Has the deal about aircraft engine been really made ? There was no announcement/confirmation from any corner ! Confirmation came only for helicopter engine.
The two countries have agreed that they will develop a future engine together in January when the PM was in France.
 
Why not have 2 Kaveri engines in ine Tejas mk1a. The thrust should be enough ! Then test it and keep improving it !!

Are there no Indian Americans who were involved in manufacturing ge engines in USA. Show some patriotism towards your ancestral country !!
In theory, that would work. However, integrating two engines means a massive redesign of the aircraft and the entire testing regimen to be re-done, which is a lot of effort and really not worth it with AMCA on the horizon.

The Tejas was also intended to be relatively cheap, and putting on a second engine doesn't help with costs.
 
If I had a Kodak film camera, will I replace it with a digital camera ! No, I will buy a smart phone which also has a good camera. There is no point in replacing fighter jets. Go for highly manoeuvrable missiles which can fly at varying speeds, has very little radar signature and hit the targets rather than fighter jets. More cost effective too!
Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Missiles tend to become very expensive very quickly, especially in large numbers. Oh, and missiles have a far lower lifespan than fighters do, so in the grand scheme of things, a fighter with missiles tends to be cheaper than just sufficient numbers of different missiles for the same operational requirements.
 
We have been very skeptical about US regarding its dealing with India ( with genuine reasons ) but in reality they are the one who first gave access to closely guarded technology ( for money or whatever). It has to be admitted.
Other than the F414 engine, which is something that is yet to materialise, just what other technology have the Americans shared with us?
 
Exactly my point. Only someone with an incentive will have that attitude. No one would do that if the job and salary is fixed and they won’t have a stake in the project’s success.
Do u know akshat what is actual problem.. Har boss ko apne niche ek chutiya aadmi chahiye jo use replace na kre or us chutiye ko apne se chutiya.. Isliye talent kabhi promote nahi hota balki use demotivate kiya jata hai.. It's sad but reality
 
Do u know akshat what is actual problem.. Har boss ko apne niche ek chutiya aadmi chahiye jo use replace na kre or us chutiye ko apne se chutiya.. Isliye talent kabhi promote nahi hota balki use demotivate kiya jata hai.. It's sad but reality
I think you have worked with the wrong kind of people then. All my bosses have been exceptional and have always made sure that the entire team grows with them.
 
We know what France does after we make the payment,⭕⭕⭕ round and round we go
"Once is learning; twice is a mistake; three times is daft", better learn from past experiences.
 
Do not understand the statement "the desired configuration is ambitious". It is not that such a capacity engine does not exists, AL-31FP has same power specs. What they are looking for is new technique and material than can reduce the size and efficiency of the engine. So the desire is to get modern tech for catch up, as India has not been able to spend and keep up with the technological development due to lack of funding and professional management. Add to this the mentality of being happy with import and screwdriver giri. A situation well desired by foreign and import lobby in India and abroad.
 

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