Safran Leads Race to Partner with India on 6th Gen Engine for AMCA Project, Rolls-Royce and GE Also Contend, 100% ToT Key

India's ambitious Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program is gaining momentum with the anticipated finalization of a contract for the joint development of a 6th generation jet engine.

While French aerospace giant Safran appears to be the frontrunner in this high-stakes collaboration, Rolls-Royce from the UK and General Electric (GE) from the US remain strong contenders.

This collaborative project is estimated to cost around $5 billion, a significant investment that will not only fund the engine's development but also establish a local production line in India. The funds will be used to create prototypes and support extensive ground and in-flight testing, ensuring the engine meets the demanding requirements of modern combat aircraft.

The ambitious timeline aims to have the engine ready for production by 2032-33. Before that, three engines will be specifically developed for rigorous ground testing to identify and resolve any technical issues before proceeding to in-flight testing.

A crucial aspect of this partnership is the commitment to 100% Transfer of Technology (ToT) and the establishment of production facilities within India. This ensures that every component of the engine can be manufactured locally, aligning with India's "Make in India" initiative and its pursuit of self-reliance in defence technology.

While specific details remain confidential, the engine is expected to incorporate cutting-edge technologies, potentially including variable cycle capabilities. This would allow for optimal performance across different flight regimes, from subsonic to supersonic speeds, and enhance fuel efficiency.

Safran's potential selection as the partner for this project highlights the growing defence cooperation between India and France. However, with Rolls-Royce and GE also in contention, the final decision will likely depend on various factors, including technological capabilities, cost-effectiveness, and the level of commitment to technology transfer and local production.

The development of a 6th generation engine for the AMCA is a crucial step towards India's goal of fielding a truly indigenous fifth-generation fighter aircraft. This project not only strengthens India's defence capabilities but also positions it as a key player in the global aerospace industry.

 

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[Dredd]

Wasn't this supposed to be a fifth-generation-esque engine? Or have the folks at one of these foreign OEMs allowed themselves to be convinced to share cutting-edge technology that they themselves are developing as of today?

Proofread the articles, please.

Exactly, As usual PSU just added a generation without any change in requirements/performance characteristics. Similar to how they start calling AMCA 5.5 gen without explaining what makes it 5.5 gen jet.

 

[Raja Raja Cholan]

Identify an ideal partner who could conform to India's requirements and negotiate for a win win deal to collaborate for the joint development of a 6th gen fighter engine. There are three players vying for the joint collaboration pick and choose the best willing partner. I hope they will not sit on it and drag their feet for too long because we are lagging very far behind china and turkey.

 

[ASHOK CARROL]

The deal will result in cutting-edge testing, trials, and production facilities with expansion of trained manpower. This investment the government must do by involving large public-private, medium companies involved with HAL, DRDO, GTRE, ISRO, Atomic Energy, Bharat Forge, Godrej, BEL, BHEL, Mishra Dhatu, PTC, and many other companies. Production facilities within India should cut down the costs. The French and British do not have the engine yet. They will use the Indian money to produce a 6th-generation adaptive engine for their own fighter programs. What India gains, whether 70% or 80% or 90%, is not yet known, but the "Goras" will never transfer 100%. That's for sure. However, the Indian capabilities and capacities will become formidable and world-class for it to then move on its own. To ensure the money is well spent, India must either join the French FCAS or British-led GCAP program, where her own programs will move forward instead of moving alone, especially when infrastructure, facilities, and manpower simply do not exist.

 

[Akshat]

Yes keep milking india in the name of technology which gets expired and outdated even before it reaches indian shores

We actually get pretty decent tech. At least much more advanced than we have ourselves. It is DRDO's job to make use of it and build up on it. Say, we got the tech for Bofors. What happened to it for almost 2 decades? We got the ToT for SAM missiles from Israel. Till now little has been done with it when it comes to operational systems. We got ToT for submarines but lost it all. We got ToT of AESA radars but Uttam is still not production ready. All these were quite advanced tech.

Similarly, France had offered to make Kaveri work but it was DRDO which refused. Similarly France is offering 100% ToT for AMCA engine but AMCA itself is nowhere, plus DRDO is not moving ahead on the engine negotiations. GE also agreed to do ToT of F414 in 2010 itself but so far Tejas Mk2 hasn't been rolled out, so how can we get F414 tech?

So blame the DPSUs and DRDO for the failure.

 

[PKPRS]

French only have 4th gen tech made in the 1980’s.

 

[kumar]

Will be good if we develop engines with French. But production and test facilities must be within India. We need to have local supply chain and ecosystem so that we can build on it in future.

 

[Kailash]

The French already have the FCAS project. Second, Safran alone developed the M-88 engine. Rafale has been developed by a single nation, unlike the Eurofighter project, which involved several stakeholders. The M-88 is a marvel; the French have all the keys to develop a 6th-gen hot core. The remaining will be developed by GTRE. That's why the US has shortcomings in the F-35, which is not even a true 5th-gen fighter, but some fanboys call it a 5th-gen fighter. But in reality, it's a 4.75-gen fighter.

The same is true of the M88. It is a basic 4th-gen design augmented with some exotic 5th-gen materials. You could call it 4.5 gen. Nothing more. Frankly, even the F404IN20 is built using a similar hashing of 4th and 5th-gen elements. F414EPE/EDE is what the IN6 will be based on - this borrows heavily from tech developed decades ago for F119/135, etc., which are firmly at 5th-gen levels.

 

[R. Singh]

Two blinds can't conquer mountain ! GTRE with 73 KN and Safran with 75Kn engine can't make suitable (125+Kn) engine with in time ! So better GTRE+Indian Pvt sector+ Rolls Royce should make 90 Kn+110KN+ 125+ KN engines for Indian fighter jet program ! We don't need Mac 1.8 speed fighters we need Mac 2.35 to Mac 2.50 speed fighter jets !

 

[Kailash]

French only have 4th gen tech made in the 1980’s.

They have access to some 5th gen material and machining tech. But they don't have a full fledged 5th gen engine. We will end up sponsoring their effort, while hoping we get something more than just hardware back

 

[Air Cmde KI Ravi AVSM VSM]

Let us first analyze where we are and what we have. The Su-30 is powered by the AL-31FP, the most powerful engine, with two per aircraft. Russian. The Western Rafale has the M88-2, next below the AL-31FP, with 2 engines per aircraft. The latter engine is 4.5 gen. Question: with 39 of these flying with us, has our GTRE completely studied these two engines and mastered the technology? No. First, let them do that so that they can move to a 5th-gen engine. The best we have on the Western side to study is the GE F414 engine; 8 of them are gathering dust and waiting for the LCA Mk2. How much data on this engine have we gathered at HAL, ETBRDC, or GTRE? None. Do this first. AMCA is still on the drawing board, struggling to find out how it can be carved into a 5th-gen fighter. Did the IAF release an ASR for AMCA? No. First, tell the customer to release an ASR. Just because China is sounding off about 6th gen, we have started beating drums. First, meet the customer, the IAF's, requirement of 42 squadrons of aircraft to protect our nation. 6th gen is not even to be spoken of. Why are we talking only of GE, RR, Safran, and Eurojet? None of them have crossed a 110kN engine, whereas P&W have produced 191kN for the F-35. At least we can tie up with them for a 150kN engine design and development. Alternately, Russian engines have thrusts crossing 140kN. Joint development with Russia is a better option, like the successful BrahMos project. No GTRE, etc. A cohesive team and project like ADA was created for LCA has to be formed, steered by the Raksha Mantri himself. Don't burn your fingers with Safran or GE. This is my solution. Do it.

 

[Sandeep]

The deal will result in cutting-edge testing, trials, and production facilities with expansion of trained manpower. This investment the government must do by involving large public-private, medium companies involved with HAL, DRDO, GTRE, ISRO, Atomic Energy, Bharat Forge, Godrej, BEL, BHEL, Mishra Dhatu, PTC, and many other companies. Production facilities within India should cut down the costs. The French and British do not have the engine yet. They will use the Indian money to produce a 6th-generation adaptive engine for their own fighter programs. What India gains, whether 70% or 80% or 90%, is not yet known, but the "Goras" will never transfer 100%. That's for sure. However, the Indian capabilities and capacities will become formidable and world-class for it to then move on its own. To ensure the money is well spent, India must either join the French FCAS or British-led GCAP program, where her own programs will move forward instead of moving alone, especially when infrastructure, facilities, and manpower simply do not exist.

No in this deal they will have to because we will be designing, developing and manufacturing a completely brand new engine which gives us 100% of the technology along with the IPR protection and get to manufacture 100% of it in India. France will get the same rights as well and neither party can sell any engines or parts of it or its technology without our permission first. The education, engineering, scientific and metallurgical knowledge and skills is the key area as now we can develop improvements on it in future or develop a brand new one.

 

[Sandeep]

It is absolutely essential that we design, develop and manufacture this 6th generation engine that we need for the AMCA. In this deal we will be designing, developing and manufacturing a completely brand new engine which gives us 100% of the technology along with the IPR protection and get to manufacture 100% of it in India using Indian raw materials. France will get the same rights as well and neither party can sell any engines or parts of it or its technology without the permission of either one of us first.

The main benefit in making this deal is that we will receive the very advanced technology, education, engineering requirements, scientific knowledge, metallurgical knowledge, machine requirements and we get to develop the advanced knowledge and skills. Once we develop the engine this is a key achievement as now we can develop improvements on the engine in future or develop a completely brand new engine.

 

[PKPRS]

They have access to some 5th gen material and machining tech. But they don't have a full fledged 5th gen engine. We will end up sponsoring their effort, while hoping we get something more than just hardware back

why would we do that and waste precious time and money and bet on a novice while GE and RR already have a working engine, also do you think French don’t have money.