The Kaveri Debate: Upgrade or Start From Scratch?

India's efforts to develop cutting-edge engines for its fighter jets face a strategic crossroads. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) plans to create the Kaveri 2.0 – a powerful engine intended for the Tejas Mk1A fighter. On the surface, this seems like a sound upgrade from the Tejas' current American-made engines. Yet, the Kaveri 2.0's development sparks debate when considered alongside a more ambitious project on the horizon.

India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a next-generation fighter, demands an engine far more powerful than the Kaveri 2.0 can offer. The AMCA program may involve international collaboration, potentially leading to an engine capable of an impressive 130kN thrust – power that could pave the way for India's potential 6th-generation fighter projects.

This is where the Kaveri 2.0's role becomes uncertain. Experts suggest that the AMCA engine, if designed for adaptability, could be "detuned" to a lower thrust output suitable for the Tejas Mk1A when it undergoes a major upgrade decades from now. This strategy would streamline costs and logistics, but it also means that the Kaveri 2.0 itself may take a decade and considerable investment to develop, only to potentially be outclassed by the adapted AMCA engine.

So, why push for the Kaveri 2.0? National pride and security play a role – developing indigenous engines reduces reliance on foreign suppliers. Additionally, the Kaveri 2.0 could act as a learning experience for Indian engineers, laying foundations for the AMCA engine. A successful Kaveri 2.0 might even appeal to other countries operating similar jets.

The choice remains with the GTRE. Will they prioritize the Kaveri 2.0 or focus on building a flexible AMCA engine with enough potential for future adaptation? Defense analysts believe India would be better served by refining the AMCA engine and exploring its potential for multiple applications. They argue that a separate Kaveri 2.0 program is unnecessary as the AMCA engine will ultimately be superior.

Some envision a future where India develops AMCA engine variants versatile enough for unmanned combat vehicles, transport aircraft, and even commercial planes.

 

[Sentoki]

This is not a very sound argument. By this logic, GE404 should have been phased out as soon as 414 was developed and so on.

The reality is that, there are always different engine and thrust requirements based on different classes of fighters from light combat to air superiority fighters.

With regards to using a detuned AMCA engine for Tejas for midlife refit, again several holes in this logic.

1. The initial consideration for Tejas MK2 was a MK1 airframe with GE414 engine to provide additional thrust and payload. This was soon realized as not very viable without airframe changes, hence the current MK2 design.
2. Now imagine what it's going to take to detune a 130KN engine down to 85-90Kn. At the very least you are to be struck with extra weight which will be detrimental for SFC/Range.
3. Even if it were feasible, that's 12-15 years out assuming that the base AMCA engine is developed in 10 years which in itself is questionable with a brand new project. Neither Safran nor Rolls have a 5th Gen engine of this class. So this is an ambitious project for them let alone GTRE.
4. GTRE already has a functional engine with 73KN thrust demonstrated per public records at least 5 years ago. Whose to say they have not made progress since then to increase thrust and reduce weight while resolving flutter in the AB section. I would be surprised if they have not already. I would be surprised if they have not made some progress towards this in last 5 years but have not made it public.
5. Development of an 85-90KN engine will benefit Tejas, HLFT42 and potentially even TEDBF depending on when it gets CCS approval.

In summary, Kaveri 2.0 can be closer to fruition than AMCA engine if the government pulls its finger out and provides adequate resource on this project.

 

[War is good for business]

But the government gave a blank check to GTRE and they couldn’t do anything. So we need alternatives.

There is never a blank check in government spending. Why don't you quote the total project cost spent on kaveri?

 

[Vf Feb]

This is an article to Confuse others from a a confused journalist who is miles away from specifics in Metallurgical technology .. Just Time Pass

 

[Pramkumar]

Step by step approach will win the race even present Kaveri engine should be fixed with trainers which will give valuable inputs and required experience for building the aero engine for the country

 

[ASHOK CARROL]

No short cut to success . Sustained training in IITS , IISC, refining by scientists engineers deputed to MIT , CIT and work experience of Indians working in Boeing , Lockheed Martin , Pratt and Whitney , Rolls Royce , Developing and purchasing Latest 7th and 9th CNC machines , welding/brazing technology , development of high temperature metals , carbon composites , Ceramics and setting up of testing infrastructure including a wide body Engine test bedaircraft and high Altitude test facility all require time and billions of investment . Afocused 10 yrs of sustained effort involving the best brains of the country from scientists , designers , HAL , IAF , BEL , Mishra Dhatu Nigam , GTRE , private companies like Tatas , Godrej , Bharat forge need to be copted into a public private consortium for engine development under a financially empowered board of directors and Chairmran not answerable to mod babus of defence ministry , finance , pmo reporting directly to the NSA and PM . Chinese have allocated 60 billion $ for engine development . In India the clueless babus hope to do so with a few millions thus perpetually delaying the development research and testing and keeping the nation dependent of foreign power s.

 

[Akhil]

But the government gave a blank check to GTRE and they couldn’t do anything. So we need alternatives.

Give statistics buddy. What was the total cheque given to GTRE for Kaveri project?

 

[Akhil]

Please provide wind tunnel testing sites, test beds to GTRE. Need hypersonic wind tunnels in India.

We can't keep to&fro between India and Russia. FFS our economy is bigger than them. Imagine US picking whole as* planes to India to test them.

 

[Sandeep]

This article is absolute rubbish and incorrect. Firstly HAL have already signed a deal with Safran to develop a brand new 100-130kn engine for the AMCA where India will own 100% of the technology, make 100% of the entire engine in India, we will own 100% of the intellectual property right and we can sell the engine to whoever without needing permission from France as well. This is the best deal ever that no other country would ever give.

Another key benefit is that our scientists and engineers right from the start will be able to learn, design and develop such a complex, difficult and advanced piece of technology and in future we will be able to advance and upgrade the technology to produce different types of engine and thrust levels by ourselves.

Another possible benefit is that if the engine dimensions on the AMCA are the same size for the Tejas MK1A, MK2 and TEDBF then we can use this indigenous engine to replace the F404/F414 after it completes its lifespan which will cut down on importing foreign expensive engines, parts, repairs and services. If the dimensions aren't the exact same then we can always modify it or the jet so we can install and use our indigenous engine.

At the same time India still needs to work on developing different type of engines with different type of thrust levels for jets or missiles and the Kaveri engine is crucial. With the B J P and PM they are the only party that cared on developing our own advanced engine technology and since then we have developed a reliable, efficient and cost effective 100% indigenous Kaveri engine which was deliberately held back by the corrupt jihadi party in favour of importing which earned them the bribes.

For the Kaveri MK2 engine HAL will need to either modify or redesign the Kaveri MK1 engine entirely so they need to increase the amount of thrust and develop a afterburner that achieves the engine requirements for the Tejas MK1A and MK2 jets. The Kaveri MK1 engine has passed all tests and trials and gives us a reliable 50kn of thrust with no afterburner yet it has all been certified and we will use this on the upcoming stealth UCAV Ghatak. At the same time we are developing the Kaveri Marine engine which has been making a lot of progress and it can easily replace small to medium size ship engines with the first indigenous engine which will make us self reliant.

 

[kumar]

The engine for amca will be of different class of engine. It won't fit into tejas mk1a and also there will be weight penalty. Kaveri 2.0 is the right choice.

 

[Sandeep]

They have been offering LCA and F18 since 2006. F35 since 2019. Patriot since 2017. Kaveri is a super failure. It’s not gonna work as long as it’s with GTRE.

The Kaveri engine isn't a failure at all. We have already run all of the tests and trials so it's a certified jet engine that gives 50kn of thrust and it will be used on the stealth UCAV Ghatak drone which cuts down on expensive foreign imports.

We are also developing the Kaveri Marine engine and it's currently going through a lot of tests and trials but it's showing very good progress and it will be ideal to use on our small to medium naval ships which makes this our first indigenous marine engine without needing or relying on foreign engine, parts, upgrades or technology which benefits our military and military companies.

 

[Sandeep]

This is not a very sound argument. By this logic, GE404 should have been phased out as soon as 414 was developed and so on.

The reality is that, there are always different engine and thrust requirements based on different classes of fighters from light combat to air superiority fighters.

With regards to using a detuned AMCA engine for Tejas for midlife refit, again several holes in this logic.

1. The initial consideration for Tejas MK2 was a MK1 airframe with GE414 engine to provide additional thrust and payload. This was soon realized as not very viable without airframe changes, hence the current MK2 design.
2. Now imagine what it's going to take to detune a 130KN engine down to 85-90Kn. At the very least you are to be struck with extra weight which will be detrimental for SFC/Range.
3. Even if it were feasible, that's 12-15 years out assuming that the base AMCA engine is developed in 10 years which in itself is questionable with a brand new project. Neither Safran nor Rolls have a 5th Gen engine of this class. So this is an ambitious project for them let alone GTRE.
4. GTRE already has a functional engine with 73KN thrust demonstrated per public records at least 5 years ago. Whose to say they have not made progress since then to increase thrust and reduce weight while resolving flutter in the AB section. I would be surprised if they have not already. I would be surprised if they have not made some progress towards this in last 5 years but have not made it public.
5. Development of an 85-90KN engine will benefit Tejas, HLFT42 and potentially even TEDBF depending on when it gets CCS approval.

In summary, Kaveri 2.0 can be closer to fruition than AMCA engine if the government pulls its finger out and provides adequate resource on this project.

We have already made a deal with Safran to design and develop a brand new engine for the AMCA where we will own 100% of the technology, make 100% of the engine in India, sell to whoever we want to without needing permission from France first. This deal is perfect and nobody else would help to develop engines for any foreign country so India needs to make the most of it.

Another possible benefit is that if the engine dimensions on the AMCA are the same size for the Tejas MK1A, MK2 and TEDBF then we can use this indigenous engine to replace the F404/F414 after it completes its lifespan which will cut down on importing foreign expensive engines, parts, repairs and services. If the dimensions aren't the exact same then we can always modify it or the jet so we can install and use our indigenous engine.

For the Kaveri MK2 engine HAL will need to either modify or redesign the Kaveri MK1 engine entirely so they need to increase the amount of thrust and develop a afterburner that achieves the engine requirements for the Tejas MK1A and later on for the MK2 jets. The Kaveri MK1 engine has passed all tests and trials and it gives us a reliable 50kn of thrust with no afterburner yet so it has all been certified and we will use this on the upcoming stealth UCAV Ghatak. At the same time we are developing the Kaveri Marine engine which has been making a lot of progress and it can easily replace small to medium size naval ship engines making it the first indigenous engine which will make us self reliant.

 

[Sandeep]

KAVERI 2.0 Reality or a Myth ? I definitely wish to see KAVERI ASAP.

Kaveri 1 has passed all of its test and the technology has been certified to use it on the stealth UCAV Ghatak drone.

We have already made a deal with Safran to design and develop a brand new engine for the AMCA where we will own 100% of the technology, make 100% of the engine in India, sell to whoever we want to without needing permission from France first. This deal is perfect and nobody else would help to develop engines for any foreign country so India needs to make the most of it.

For the Kaveri MK2 engine HAL will need to either modify or redesign the Kaveri MK1 engine entirely so they need to increase the amount of thrust and develop a afterburner that achieves the engine requirements for the Tejas MK1A and later on for the MK2 jets. The Kaveri MK1 engine has passed all tests and trials and it gives us a reliable 50kn of thrust with no afterburner yet so it has all been certified and we will use this on the upcoming stealth UCAV Ghatak. At the same time we are developing the Kaveri Marine engine which has been making a lot of progress and it can easily replace small to medium size naval ship engines making it the first indigenous engine which will make us self reliant.

 

[Akshat]

The Kaveri engine isn't a failure at all. We have already run all of the tests and trials so it's a certified jet engine that gives 50kn of thrust and it will be used on the stealth UCAV Ghatak drone which cuts down on expensive foreign imports.

We are also developing the Kaveri Marine engine and it's currently going through a lot of tests and trials but it's showing very good progress and it will be ideal to use on our small to medium naval ships which makes this our first indigenous marine engine without needing or relying on foreign engine, parts, upgrades or technology which benefits our military and military companies.

Which one of them is in active service or is certified by any agency? Name one. Else it’s a colossal waste and nothing else.

 

[Akshat]

Give statistics buddy. What was the total cheque given to GTRE for Kaveri project?

Yup. They were given so much money that funds were left unspent. Whatever they asked for was given (monetary terms).

 

[Akshat]

There is never a blank check in government spending. Why don't you quote the total project cost spent on kaveri?

What is meant by a blank cheque? It means whatever the party asks is provided for. GoI gave as much funds as needed, and then some. So it was a blank cheque. Exact amount is pointless if GTRE never asked for more money.

 

[Akshat]

After 2014 , situations have changed in all sectors of development. GTRE has at least 48 KN dry thrust engine in its hand , developing an AF section to increase peak thrust of 73 KN . GoI must vigorously pursue Kaveri -2 in parallel with AMCA engine with foreign collaboration.

Has anything so far been operationalised? They were developing even before 2014. So that’s pointless. Nothing has changed when it comes to DRDO and DPSUs

 

[Akshat]

Well it will get certified in Tejas under GTRE and Ghatak will fly with it.

Which private sector company is able and willing ? Well if you have Safran in mind, then it’s a different story.

Unfortunately for you, Kaveri will remain an indigenous effort and that too under GTRE. If govt and IAF invests money, there is a decent chance of success too and in fact it’s already tasting success and foreign interests are so restless and offering their tech too.

GoI has already given a blank cheque. So funding isn’t an issue. As for who is capable, I don’t know. If an open tender is launched, we will find out.

‘Will be operationalised with Tejas. The typical future promises of socialists with nothing to show for in present or past.

And indeed. GoI has given up on Kaveri and that’s why it’s letting GTRE play with it while going for a joint venture.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

But the government gave a blank check to GTRE and they couldn’t do anything. So we need alternatives.

Check the funding till date, limited ground based test facilities, lack of aerial platform for tests. Not very encouraging signs from govts.

 

[Aayush Dhaundiyal]

What is the requirement to be eligible to post on this website? The quality is dropping everyday

 

[Pramkumar]

Turkey is going with even half of powered engine for its 5th gen fighter program. chinese are ready to fly their aircraft whatever the engine they make. what is the problem with the imported air force.