2 Rafale Per Month: Dassault Seeks Full Control of India Facility, Promises Speedier Production

Dassault Aviation, the French company behind the powerful Rafale fighter jet, has its eyes on a bigger piece of India's growing aerospace industry. They've made a bold move, offering to start building Rafales right in India – but there's a catch. Dassault wants full control of its existing Indian partnership, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd (DRAL).

The Promise: Faster Jets for India​

Why does Dassault think this is a good deal for India? They claim that with full ownership, they could ramp up production and build two Rafale jets every month at their Indian facility. That's huge! If they keep that pace, India could get all 114 jets it wants for its upcoming fighter jet competition in just five years.

A Reality Check​

Hold on a second, says a defense analyst. He points out that Dassault's factory in France only managed to produce 13 Rafales in 2023, even though they aimed for 15. Could they really do so much better in India? Analyst also thinks that Dassault might be able to build even more jets (around 25 per year) in other countries.

Politics and Timing​

There's also the matter of India's upcoming elections. The official request for companies to compete for that big fighter jet contract probably won't happen until after the elections. This adds another layer of "wait-and-see" to the whole situation.

The Bottom Line​

Dassault wants to bring more investment to India's defense industry. But, there are questions! Can they really build jets as fast as they say? And, when will India even officially start that big jet fighter competition? India's government and air force will have a lot to think about as they weigh Dassault's offer against other options.

 

[Sridhar]

In Telugu we call this ruse - "Nakka Jitthulu" which means Fox tricks.

Dassault is trying every which way it can to avoid transferring any TOT or full production to India and its HAL since it won L1 bidder award. It reneged on all commitments put in winning L1 bidder status.
Do not fall for France/Dassault/Safran tricks at all.

Better to invest that $30+ billions massively in Indian own programs like Tejas IA, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, and AMCA.

It must be a RED LINE and NO GO.

NSR garu , IAF needs fighter jets badly and sadly they are not getting this internally. So the best option is to get these jets under ToT and later on look at buying internally once the production capability increase.

 

[shivkumar sinha]

IAF lost a wonderful opportunity of going for additional Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 when both were offered under ToT to be manufactured in India. IAF is now paying the cost of falling Sqdns. Now IAF and MoD can really look at RAFALE under Made in India. HAL meanwhile can take their own sweet time for manufacturing Tejas MK1 A , MK2 , or whatever variants they want to build and which ever plant they want to.
IAF atleast can expect their jets to be delivered on time.

Observing the history of Dassault it is hard to believe their intentions in making Bharat self reliant. At least,there is no such evidence except to exploit defence marker of Bharat. Equally, Indian side is also faulty in not absorbing ToT . Su-30 mki , HDW and scorpenes submarines deals are glaring examples . Bharat can accept a delay of few years in indigenous platforms but can't rely on foreign suppliers for its critical defence needs . Do you really expect that our notorious defence acquisitions process will deliver MRFA within 10 years?

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

114*$275 (with inflation adjustments) = $31.35 billions.
Speaks volumes about acquiring 4+ generation fighter without TOT for $31.35+ billions.

And then India will keep paying for spares and logistic services. etc through its nose for next few decades for sure.

Spend that amount on Indian fighters only.
Nothing ventured and nothing gained.

A Fine Idea. Except with HAL messing up schedules again for both LCA MK2 and AMCA Mk1 they are unlikely to witness induction anytime before 2037 and 2040 respectively. So the question is what happens to our defense posture in the interim, especially when Jaguars are likely to be start phase out by end of 2024 or early 2025.

 

[Sandeep]

NSR garu , IAF needs fighter jets badly and sadly they are not getting this internally. So the best option is to get these jets under ToT and later on look at buying internally once the production capability increase.

The number of squadrons are lower than what we like but we are also buying more SAM which gives the area a permanent coverage 24/7 that a jet can't do as they have to keep flying. So our air defence capabilities aren't as weak as some people would like to think.

 

[NSR]

NSR garu , IAF needs fighter jets badly and sadly they are not getting this internally. So the best option is to get these jets under ToT and later on look at buying internally once the production capability increase.

Sridhar Garu,
Even if we order Rafale now, it will only start delivery by 3-4 years. By that time, I except at least two Tejas Mk2 prototypes and one would take to skies for flight tests.
I am sure France/Dassault will stick us F3 versions and then they will try to sell F4 upgrade like the Mirage-2000 upgrades.
Got to be careful.

India Integrated Air and Missile Defense system is expanding very rapidly so India may not need as many fighters immediately.

 

[Sandeep]

In this deal they would make 100% of the jet in India using local materials and content which works well in providing more jobs and help businesses by buying their parts, technology and other materials that is needed but India won't get any technology transfer from this deal.

India needs to scrap this MRFA deal which will cost around 25+ billion dollars which makes it very expensive. We need to focus more on the Tejas MK1A and MK2 along with the AMCA and speed up developing the technology along with manufacturing most of it in India. We also need to order more MR-SAM squadrons along with Akash SAM and quickly develop the upcoming future Akash NG and QRSAM as soon as possible which will cover our integrated defence shield strongly by filling the gaps.

 

[NSR]

A Fine Idea. Except with HAL messing up schedules again for both LCA MK2 and AMCA Mk1 they are unlikely to witness induction anytime before 2037 and 2040 respectively. So the question is what happens to our defense posture in the interim, especially when Jaguars are likely to be start phase out by end of 2024 or early 2025.

India must concentrate on Integrated Air and Missile Defense architecture until enough fighters comes on stream.
With AkashNG, MRSAM, LRSAM, and S-400 interceptors in deployment, two enemies will be extra careful to attack India.

 

[Sridhar]

Sridhar Garu,
Even if we order Rafale now, it will only start delivery by 3-4 years. By that time, I except at least two Tejas Mk2 prototypes and one would take to skies for flight tests.
I am sure France/Dassault will stick us F3 versions and then they will try to sell F4 upgrade like the Mirage-2000 upgrades.
Got to be careful.

India Integrated Air and Missile Defense system is expanding very rapidly so India may not need as many fighters immediately.

We can depend upon DASSAULT to humour their delivery schedules. But our own co ?

 

[Sridhar]

The number of squadrons are lower than what we like but we are also buying more SAM which gives the area a permanent coverage 24/7 that a jet can't do as they have to keep flying. So our air defence capabilities aren't as weak as some people would like to think.

SAM cannot replace fighter jets. SAM system are basically for denying enemy aircrafts the freedom to operate in Indian airspace. But jets are required to mount offensive operations which a SAM cannot do.

 

[beencensured]

French AESA RADAR and METEOR missile are contemporary. UTTAM RADAR and ASTRA Missile Mk 2 and MK 3 are upcoming. So comparing the present and the future does not make any sense.

You can lie , but next year they will make nothing and the next too. Rafale order is in future not present.

 

[beencensured]

Does a fighter only need Astra3 and uttam? Is Astra 3 better than meteor? Can't these be integrated into Rafales?

Astra 3 is better then meteor.

 

[beencensured]

And where is either of them?

Uttam has past trials and going into production phase and probably start integration in 2025, Astra 3 is in trials stage.

 

[Akshat]

Uttam has past trials and going into production phase and probably start integration in 2025, Astra 3 is in trials stage.

‘Probably’, ‘trials’….too many uncertainties. So basically the answer is that none of them is anywhere.

 

[Akshat]

Saab has already set up a 100% owned company in India to make Karl Gustaf Mk-4 in India.

I was talking about Gripen, but true.

 

[Akshat]

Observing the history of Dassault it is hard to believe their intentions in making Bharat self reliant. At least,there is no such evidence except to exploit defence marker of Bharat. Equally, Indian side is also faulty in not absorbing ToT . Su-30 mki , HDW and scorpenes submarines deals are glaring examples . Bharat can accept a delay of few years in indigenous platforms but can't rely on foreign suppliers for its critical defence needs . Do you really expect that our notorious defence acquisitions process will deliver MRFA within 10 years?

Well Dassault did a great job of ToT and offsets in the Rafale deal. Same for Scorpene. So the history is rather inspiring.

 

[Akshat]

Get real.
If India signs contract today, then it will get first Rafale in 3 to 4 years.
By that time Tejas Mk2 will be in flight tests...

And it will take another 15+ years to induct mk2.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

‘Probably’, ‘trials’….too many uncertainties. So basically the answer is that none of them is anywhere.

Astra Mk2 has completed development trials. So, it is pretty close, Astra Mk2 can do most of the job. Only difference will be Astra3 will have slightly longer range due to RAMJET but that is not critical since Astra 2 has 160km range anyways

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Does a fighter only need Astra3 and uttam? Is Astra 3 better than meteor? Can't these be integrated into Rafales?

Astra 3 is likely SFDR. But India has completed development trials of Astra mk2 which is equal to AIM120D and is only inferior to Meteor/ Astra 3 in range. But with 160km range for Astra mk2, it does not matter

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Saab has already set up a 100% owned company in India to make Karl Gustaf Mk-4 in India.

Carl Gustaf was already produced by OFB with some royalty fees to SAAB. So, there was no real TOT, just royalty replaced with direct profits

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

1. Amount of ToT depends on how much we are ready to pay. ToT is never free. The more you are ready to pay, the more ToT can be achieved. However, 100% is rather difficult. Say, they won't give you the tech for M88, will they? Regarding penalties, France doesn't need them as their record for offsets and ToT is rather stellar in recent deals like Rafale and Scorpene.
2. Govt. recently allowed 100% FDI in defense to boost local production. They will have to create an Indian subsidiary which will be an Indian company for all practical reasons. The GoI must close this loophole for bigger projects. Even Saab is looking at this route. Having said that, DRDO does get all the tech transferred. But we must ensure a local participant.

If 100% is not possible, with critical parts not being transferred, it does not make sense to buy them as it will create eternal dependency on spare parts. It will serve no purpose during major wars of attrition and only useful for minor skirmishes

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

It's not a conspiracy but a corporate move based on existing laws. GoI recently allowed 100% FDI in defense. Even Saab is said to be considering this route. So this is very much allowed by GoI itself. GoI must close off this loophole.

But what is the point of getting more rafales if TOT is not there for key tech? Either India should make Rafales with Kaveri engine in which case, why would India want French company to make the planes at all?

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Well Dassault did a great job of ToT and offsets in the Rafale deal. Same for Scorpene. So the history is rather inspiring.

Unless critical parts & data is given, it is not really useful. Half TOT for simple tech is practically useless when India can do it by itself. Either give the critical tech or get lost.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Observing the history of Dassault it is hard to believe their intentions in making Bharat self reliant. At least,there is no such evidence except to exploit defence marker of Bharat. Equally, Indian side is also faulty in not absorbing ToT . Su-30 mki , HDW and scorpenes submarines deals are glaring examples . Bharat can accept a delay of few years in indigenous platforms but can't rely on foreign suppliers for its critical defence needs . Do you really expect that our notorious defence acquisitions process will deliver MRFA within 10 years?

France refused to give basic helicopter engines for ALH despite 40 years of JV for helicopters. Why would you expect them to give Mirage engines or radars or other electronics to India?
Even if MRFA is delivered, without TOT for key tech, it will only create eternal dependency. As we saw in Iraq war of 1991, Iraq had 5th largest army in the world (after USA, Russia, China, India) but was crushed quickly as USSR had collapsed and it could not get spare parts supply for its equipments

 

[Sridhar]

You can lie , but next year they will make nothing and the next too. Rafale order is in future not present.

What was the lie i uttered ? UTTAM RADAR is planned to be integrated from 41st TEJAS MK1 A according to MD of HAL. ASTRA MK2 and MK 3 are work in progress. METEOR is a reality. THALES RBE 2 AESA RADAR is a reality. Did i say anything negative either about ASTRA or UTTAM RADAR. If UTTAM RADAR and ASTRA variants are operational , I will be one among the million happy Indian citizen.
But at the same time I would go with what is available currently not with what can come tomorrow or the day after. Wars are won on superior weapons and strategies not on hopes.

 

[Puneet]

Wonderful. India should go for it

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

I do not think any ToT payment will be involved if these planes are made in India by a company that is a 100% owned by Dassault.

All tech is transferred to DRDO if made in India. So, yes, there will be payment. But if it is only useless tech like landing lights, exhaust ports etc, then it is not needed

 

[beencensured]

If India decides to do Rafales for MRFA (I have reservations) then Dassault must guarantee (with severe penalties) full TOT, F4 version and future upgrades, Indian weapons and sensor integration, domestic production (with indigenous suppliers) of at least 12 (1st year, rising to 18 and then 24 by year 3) within 3 years of contract signing and all planes in 5 years thereafter, on a fixed upfront price...I would suggest against 100% Dassault control, and require a JV say with TATAS of 49%, so we can have a long term player along with HAL...Of course Dassault will promise everything but we must be careful how we structure the contract and ensure not only commercial, but also technical, speed, cost guarantees including by the French Government (with TOT and Export Controls)....In the past we have done a poor job with Mirage 2000, Su-30 MKIs and we did not have a spine, hopefully now we do and must drive a good deal with national interest in mind.

Long term French are worse then Russians. At least we know how to upgrade Russian aircraft, but French re special breed of white elephants that makes them OEM dependent.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

Buy one or two more Rafale squadrons and that is it. Let us speed up on AMCA and Tejas-2 instead. Of course, Rafael can buy out Anil Ambani share to be 100% owner of DRDL and export its products from here. That is welcome.

 

[Tabaahi]

We should go for Rafales only when few critical conditions are met as it is a costly project atleast above 15 billions dollars even when that cost would be spent across a decade.

1. We must link this project with Safran support for engine tech. We can negotiate the cost for it separately.
2. Most important point is there must be a Indian local player from private industry as majority holder with Tot.
3. If this deal materialize then Dassault must have capacity to deliver atleast a dozen plane starting from 2029-30. Otherwise it would clash with our indigenous project timelines. I know both of our project are under development and there are high chances of delay but we must take that gamble.

If none of the above points are met just simply go with 36 off shelf purchase and double down on homegrown project.

 

[Arz786]

Carl Gustaf was already produced by OFB with some royalty fees to SAAB. So, there was no real TOT, just royalty replaced with direct profits

OFB was making older model of Karl Gustaf from 1980s. Saab facility is for Mark-4 that was introduced in 2017. If OFB was already producing it in India, then why someone will spend money to build a duplicate production line ?