Beyond IPR Transfer for AMCA Engine, Rolls-Royce Pledges Deep Collaboration with India for Complete Self-Reliance and Exports

Rolls-Royce, the British aerospace and defence giant, has signaled its strong interest in a deep partnership with India to co-develop a next-generation engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.

This collaboration aims to go beyond a simple transfer of intellectual property rights (IPR), focusing instead on building indigenous capabilities for India's long-term defence self-sufficiency and potential export opportunities.

Rolls-Royce is proposing a collaborative model designed to boost India's goal of "Atmanirbhar Bharat" (self-reliant India) in the defence sector. The company stated that its proposed engine co-development will offer India the chance to "create and own" the intellectual property for crucial combat engine technology.

This includes the potential not just to manufacture the engine, but also perform future upgrades and pursue export sales. This partnership aims to provide India with both the practical skills ("know-how") and the fundamental engineering understanding ("know-why") necessary for sustained technological advancement.

This comprehensive approach is crucial. Sharing both the "know-how" (the practical knowledge of building and maintaining the engine) and the "know-why" (the underlying engineering principles and design rationale) is intended to give India a strong foundation for future engine development programs. This level of engagement signifies a long-term commitment to fostering innovation within India's defence technology ecosystem.

The AMCA program, led by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is a crucial project to design and build a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet. Key features of the AMCA include advanced avionics, improved aerodynamic design, and cutting-edge weaponry.

The development of a domestically produced engine, potentially with the expertise of a company like Rolls-Royce, would represent a significant milestone for India's aerospace industry.

A successful partnership could have far-reaching consequences. It would allow India to acquire essential technologies, provide a foundation for future fighter jet projects, and potentially create new export markets for Indian-made defence equipment.

The Indian government's decision on the engine co-development will be a decisive factor in determining the trajectory of its indigenous fighter aircraft capabilities for decades to come.

Currently India is using GE made F404 and F414, engines in its LCA Tejas and Tejas MK2 program. The successful development of an indigenous engine would lessen India's reliance on foreign suppliers for this critical component.

 

[Akshat]

Will we ever see our own engine in our lifetime? Tired of the same cycle—first Safran collaboration, then Rolls-Royce, then GE, and finally Russia.

Safran collaboration is going on track as of now. It was declared that the deal might be signed this year, as per PMO's release after PM's Paris trip last year (or maybe it was 2023). As per reports (unofficial and without sources, of course), everything else has been finalized and the last remaining issue is how France would help in creating Academic capability in various fields of studies that go into engine making (like metallurgy). Once that is done, GoI will get the final report and then the deal can be signed.

 

[Shanker]

This is Amazing News....

Few days back, Russians wanted to share their engine technology, now RR is ready!!!! Perhaps, never ever had we got so much attention than now, indeed an Amrit Kaal for collaboration...

But, it should be in a TIME-BOUND manner..

Best would be to collaborate with BOTH.

Half of AMCA will fly with Russian TOT Engines, half with RR TOT Engines...

Get the BEST and develop the rest...

Money? CROWD FUND them, lots of PATRIOTIC INDIANS will chip in...

Another possibility is using the Russian engine for the SU-30MK, and possibly in the SU-57E, while using RR engines in the AMCA.

 

[Akshat]

I think the new engine will incorporate some 6th gen technology. While Russia, UK & France far away from adaptive cycle technology.

Just out of curiosity, do we even need adaptive cycle tech at this point? It is usually required to transition between high performance and high efficiency. And considering both our enemies are right at our border, we don't need to travel too far to fight them unlike US or Russia or China. Thus, the high efficiency mode is not much of an issue for IAF. So till the time we decide that we have to set up bases outside IOR or Navy has to get these planes and venture far outside IOR, adaptive Cycle tech is not even required for us.

 

[P2S2]

We had given Saffran a chance. Now we should give RR the chance to perfect our engines. One caution is to be incorporated in the agreement that, no matter what or any sanctions, the project must be completed and out of any sanctions.

An exclusion from sanctions or political considerations clause.

 

[Akshat]

When a lot is riding on this one technology, the secret to success would be to not count chickens before they hatch.

Rolls Royce will extract its pound of flesh before it transfers any bit of engine technology to India.

In the late 1960s, when the Americans were looking at the Soviets for technology on Titanium forging for their own SST aircraft, it was identified through diplomatic parleys that the Soviets would be interested in sharing the technology in exchange for American know-how regarding design elements of wing-mounted engines, where the Soviets were having trouble with their own aft-engined jet aircraft.

A meeting of the American and Soviet experts was organized at a neutral venue in a then-neutral Paris (France had withdrawn from NATO's military command in 1966).

During the meeting, set up at a hotel in Paris, the Americans provided the Soviets many sketches and drawings, drawn on napkin papers and table linen.

I wonder what it is that India would have to share with the Brits in exchange for their tech, which they will bring to the IPR table.

As and when this happens, we need to be prepared for our 'Paper Napkin' moment in history.

More important question is, does RR even have the tech to share? They had only a 30% or so share in the Eurojet. They were a partner of GE in the F35 program which many tout here, but the only component which RR was providing was related to vertical take off, and not the engine itself. Even for the older Ador planes, they have to import the compressors (which was identified as one of the trouble areas for Kaveri, unofficially). So there is little evidence that RR can even make a 3rd gen engine at this stage all by itself, let alone a full fledged 5th gen engine. Worse, it's not even the case that their strengths are complimentary to India's achievements and thus even combined we don't have enough components.

 

[Akshat]

We have already made considerable steps in developing high-temperature alloys, etc. We should, in any case, move to the development of several classes of engines. We cannot expect the best to be made immediately, and so a lower thrust-to-weight ratio could be acceptable, like China, which has developed engines that are far from fuel-efficient or perfection. But what is important is to start the road for development and not depend. Yes, take all help given, but do not depend, and have parallel programs to achieve several goals.

What I do not understand is our most egregious and regressive government cannot foresee the need to develop such an engine and give full support and test facilities, being the third-largest country by PPP, and close to the fourth-largest nation in the world by nominal GDP. It is very strange our R&D is close to that of Sub-Saharan Africa, and in critical areas, there are no proper facilities for testing and development of engines. It seems those in power do not listen to scientists and engineers and give them the proper tools, though scientists and engineers have moved on and fixed the problems of AL31F engines, which takes competency to fix such high-thrust engines and shows they may be able to develop such a class of engines.

Geopolitically, there are very much too many changes that the timeline to make such engines seems inconceivable, that it will come to fruition after ten years. As the old saying goes, you can only depend on yourself, maybe the hope of your family, but it is unlikely any stranger would help. So, it is best to make an effort and have proper tools and build engines instead of dreaming of holding hands and wasting time, as giving proper facilities to scientists and engineers is a less costly and most sound approach that has never been tried, like a flying test bed.

Oh, far more than full-throated support was given to GTRE. The issue is that your family-backed institutes were not able to develop the engine, despite a blank-check funding. So, now it is time is to give the entire tech of Kaveri, as well as all the tech we got from any offsets, to someone like Tatas and get it done. Give them billions of dollars, a blank check, and they will get it done, unlike your GTRE.

As for your claim regarding AL31, our scientists have only contributed 6% of the entire engine across GTRE and the private sector. So, that's nothing to boast about as of now.

 

[Akshat]

RR is a better bet overall due to having superior jet engine tech as compared to Safran and greater pressure to offer higher ToT as compared to GE.

I have a question for you buddy.

RR had a share of about 30% in development of Eurojet. (Though they later acquired the Italian partner and the manufacturing share increased to 43% or so).

In the F35 engine, their role was related to the vertical take off component, not the engine itself.

For 3rd gen Ador engines, they are importing components (from France, in fact).

So in the last 4 or 5 decades, RR has not demonstrated a single full fledged fighter jet engine, made entirely on their own. Forget an operational one. So why is it that you often say they have better engine tech as compared to Safran? Or any other engine maker for that matter?

 

[abhinav srivastava]

India should decide faster. Also, recall the FGFA story. We stopped AMCA for FGFA, which was meant to extract money from us. We should have our efforts in parallel with the foreign JV for engine development.

 

[Akshat]

Another possibility is using the Russian engine for the SU-30MK, and possibly in the SU-57E, while using RR engines in the AMCA.

India doesn't want any of those, bro. These are all offers from the vendors but most of those have been rejected by us and others haven't been commented upon.

 

[Akshat]

We had given Saffran a chance. Now we should give RR the chance to perfect our engines. One caution is to be incorporated in the agreement that, no matter what or any sanctions, the project must be completed and out of any sanctions.

We haven't just given them a chance, we are actually still going ahead with them. PMO itself is on record saying that we are negotiating with them. So no need of RR for now.

 

[Shanker]

India doesn't want any of those, bro. These are all offers from the vendors but most of those have been rejected by us and others haven't been commented upon.

The rejection is for AL 41 on SU 30 only. The engines on offer now have not been considered yet. Their performance specifications look impressive on paper!🙂

 

[Surfer]

We had given Saffran a chance. Now we should give RR the chance to perfect our engines. One caution is to be incorporated in the agreement that, no matter what or any sanctions, the project must be completed and out of any sanctions.

SAFRAN only has 1980-90 tech, they haven’t made any engine since 1990, why not work with RR on the engine based on EJ200 and with the Russians on 177S engine, we need more than one engine to power all our future local jets.

 

[Rajender Avasthi]

We may opt for company which gives 100% TOT & IPR and it should support us for Tejas MK2 engines too as we can't rely on USA for this critical project too

 

[Akshat]

The rejection is for AL 41 on SU 30 only. The engines on offer now have not been considered yet. Their performance specifications look impressive on paper!🙂

On paper being the key word. And you also mentioned Su57, which again has been rejected by us. On the rest, there has been no word so far. In fact, IAF chief has specifically mentioned RR and Safran but not Russia or any of it's engines when discussing foreign countries/companies we are negotiating with.

 

[Rokuth]

SAFRAN only has 1980-90 tech, they haven’t made any engine since 1990, why not work with RR on the engine based on EJ200 and with the Russians on 177S engine, we need more than one engine to power all our future local jets.

The EJ 200 is the Eurojet which powers the Eurofighter, which Rolls-Royce has a stake in. SAFRAN is a French company which is the supplier of the engines on the Rafale. So...🤷

 

[Arya Veer]

At a critical juncture, a global slowdown of the economy, at a time when India has better options to look at, it's always the buyer who decides what to opt for, and the huge Indian market is the only reason for more user power. The Indian market is key to Europe for whatever they have to sell. India should have a US proposal & another having an edge in this technology from GE for the same level of detail, for whatever reason they have an edge in engine performance and better manufacturing. All fighter programs will be based on indigenous engine platform development and complete know-how. That's how you get a strategic business opportunity for making it all going.

 

[ASHOK CARROL]

Both the British and French do not have the engine and will take 10-12 years to come up with a 120-130kN engine. The Americans, though willing, can provide the GE 414-EPE / .EDE, upgrading the existing reliable 414 with millions of hours of flight time, yet the trust deficiency exists. India would be better off joining either the Tempest GCAP Programme or the FCAS of French, wherein the MRFA and engine development will automatically fall into place. A separate partnership with Russians for 117s or IZ-30 will provide the initial powerful engines for the AMCA SU-30 MKI. The babus of MOD, Finance, PMO and politicians need to act fast and decide, as billions in investment are required.

 

[T54]

Collaboration with a foreign engine maker in producing 110kN engine for AMCA has been on the news too many times more than any progression in negotiations actually taking place in reality. I understand the decision to conclude the deal will take time but every decision making in crucial deals takes too long causing the projects dragged to long years leaving Indian defence products lagging far behind turkey and S Korea and china is running out of India's sight. It is really pathetic that our bureaucrats and GTRE officials are not bothered about the delays causing setbacks in our self reliance policy. This is the reason why India took more than two decades to come up with a fully certified fighter aircraft, Tejas. Now still struggling to fulfil the contract deal with IAF. Do the bureaucrats and the top management people in HAL ever feel ashamed of the inefficiency in getting things done in an efficient and proactive manner. When will this foreign partner in collaboration with GTRE on 110kN engine for AMCA, GE engine 80/20 ToT partnership and Rafael M deals signed to move forward to stay in par with our adversaries? Always take ages to make decision to keep the pace progress.

The system of governance of old Colonial procedures does not have any responsibility or accountability of Beurucrats HAL officials who are I’ll qualified and are products of unions political reservation policies and suck up to their political and beurucratic bosses in the rotten socialist communist public enterprises system lacking competition , meritocracy and sackings or rewards . Like rats they nibble at the organisation and its profits into their pickets with gifts and ghood given above .

 

[Surfer]

The EJ 200 is the Eurojet which powers the Eurofighter, which Rolls-Royce has a stake in. SAFRAN is a French company which is the supplier of the engines on the Rafale. So...🤷

France used to be part of EF Typhoon and EJ200 program for 15 years before they got into misunderstanding with other partners and went alone with Rafale and made SNECMA M88 with the experience they gained from EF Typhoon program.

 

[Arin Kumar]

There will be NO tech Transfer. Rolls Royce and Safran will only be after the 4-5 billion USD that India has earmarked for tech transfer. In the end we will be getting a completed engine - which we will NOT be able to replicate in India.
Why?
Because we don't have enough Material Science, Aeronautical and Mechanical Engineers in India that have any experience in Aero Engine development.
The very few that we have in GTRE are all elevated to Management positions - cutting off their links with actual manufacturing.
In India we have ZERO colleges that are teaching "Precision Machining" - NOT EVEN the IITs.
In China they have 10s of universities offering these courses.

Only hope we have is to make the Kaveri Engine fly and then improve upon that.

It may be under powered, it may be heavy , but we must try to build an aircraft around it - to test whether it can fly. If not a fighter aircraft - we must go for a trainer aircraft.

 

[Arin Kumar]

India should decide faster. Also, recall the FGFA story. We stopped AMCA for FGFA, which was meant to extract money from us. We should have our efforts in parallel with the foreign JV for engine development.

Only hope we have is to make the Kaveri Engine fly and then improve upon that.

It may be under-powered, it may be heavy, but we must try to build an aircraft around it - to test whether it can fly. If not a fighter aircraft, we must go for a trainer aircraft.

 

[Rokuth]

France used to be part of EF Typhoon and EJ200 program for 15 years before they got into misunderstanding with other partners and went alone with Rafale and made SNECMA M88 with the experience they gained from EF Typhoon program.

Not sure where you're getting your info from, but one of the reasons why France left the talks for the Eurofighter program was their insistence that the SNECMA/SAFRAN M88 engine be used for the aircraft, and the other countries refused to agree with this. The EJ200 was based on the Rolls-Royce XG40 engine. One has nothing to do with the other. There may be common features in both the M88, and EJ200, but there was no shared information between Rolls-Royce, and SNECMA, as far as I know. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Avada kedavra]

I have a question for you buddy.

RR had a share of about 30% in development of Eurojet. (Though they later acquired the Italian partner and the manufacturing share increased to 43% or so).

In the F35 engine, their role was related to the vertical take off component, not the engine itself.

For 3rd gen Ador engines, they are importing components (from France, in fact).

So in the last 4 or 5 decades, RR has not demonstrated a single full fledged fighter jet engine, made entirely on their own. Forget an operational one. So why is it that you often say they have better engine tech as compared to Safran? Or any other engine maker for that matter?

Pretty obvious Rolls-Royce is the main man for the Eurojet engine.

Don't think, apart from France and the UK, any other European nation has the real know-how to make one.

And since France was not part of the Eurofighter program, it pretty much is them only.

43% share must include the core section and the turbine blades, right?

Rolls-Royce has been making aircraft engines since World War 1, and they are among the top 3 in civilian aviation.

 

[Akshat]

Pretty obvious Rolls-Royce is the main man for the Eurojet engine.

Don't think, apart from France and the UK, any other European nation has the real know-how to make one.

And since France was not part of the Eurofighter program, it pretty much is them only.

43% share must include the core section and the turbine blades, right?

Rolls-Royce has been making aircraft engines since World War 1, and they are among the top 3 in civilian aviation.

There is nothing obvious here bro. It has been publicly accepted, by UK and other partners, that UK had only about 33% share of the total developmental effort. The rest of the countries did the bulk of the work. Then they bought the Italian company, and their production share is 43% (give or take) but they only had developed the 33%.

Well, there is nothing called 'core' section as such. The blades are also not restricted to just one section. Assuming you mean the so called 'hot core', which refers to all the parts that reach extremely high temperatures, then no, Rolls Royce didn't develop all of them. The after burner, for example, was made by Italy (and wasn't acquired during the take over either). They also didn't develop all the turbine blades, as Italy again did a significant part of that work. Plus the compressor, which was made by Germany.

So a large part of the work was not done by RR. And mind you, the engine was based on an engine developed by RR, but these countries still had to do so much of work, which shows that those parts were totally unacceptable in the original engine (or else they wouldn't have spent so much time and money reinventing it). So RR clearly was not capable of developing the engine on it's own at all.

 

[atuls1590]

Better to continue relation with GE and take it further ahead.110kn engine can be jointly developed with GE based on F414 and negotiate for make in India with TOT and IP Rights.

GE is American firm and they will do what American President wants them to do. Americans used their technology just for arm twisting of others and want them to buy their junk items which they want to sell. You have seen how Tejas MK1A program got delayed due to non-supply of their F-404 engine. So in my view India should go for Rolls-Royce engine and along with it Russian 177S engine should also be developed with full IPR.