German U-212C/D Submarine Is A Strong Contender in India's Project 75I

The Indian Navy's pursuit of new submarines under Project 75I has reached a critical juncture, with the German-made ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) U-212CD submarine successfully completing field evaluation trials (FET) in March 2024.

These trials, conducted at the TKMS facility in Germany, rigorously assessed the U-212CD's adherence to the Navy's stringent technical requirements, solidifying its position as a frontrunner in the competition.

The U-212CD's appeal lies in its advanced features, including a state-of-the-art design that prioritizes stealth by minimizing its acoustic and magnetic signatures. The submarine's air-independent propulsion (AIP) system enables extended underwater endurance, reducing the need for frequent surfacing.

It is also equipped with cutting-edge sensors, weapons systems, and communication technology. Its lineage, derived from the proven Type 212A submarines currently in service with several European navies, further bolsters its credibility.

However, the Indian Navy is not limiting its options. Navantia's S-80 Plus submarine is also under consideration, with field trials in Spain provided a comprehensive comparison of both contenders. This dual evaluation approach ensures a transparent and competitive selection process, enabling the Navy to make an informed decision based on a thorough assessment of both submarines' capabilities.

Open-source information reveals that the U-212CD is a larger and more advanced variant of the Type 212A, incorporating design enhancements for improved stealth and expanded capabilities.

Germany's potential stake in TKMS and the recent easing of export restrictions on military equipment to India could further bolster the U-212CD's prospects.

Ultimately, the Indian Navy's final decision on Project 75I will have significant ramifications for the country's maritime security and defense cooperation landscape.

 

[Anant]

Hold on a minute? The FETs conducted were for the Type 212CD? Um, the Type 212CD still doesn't exist outside the design table. The first Type 212CD is still atleast half a decade from entering service.

That said, has Germany really offered the Type 212CD? The articles started off with the Type 214, then a Type 21w derivative, and now the Type 212CD? If true, this is a truly fantastic offering.

 

[Pink Panther]

Why wouln't it, it is the best (.), conventional diesel electric submarine, we just need to go with whoever offers more TOT.

 

[Pink Panther]

Hold on a minute? The FETs conducted were for the Type 212CD? Um, the Type 212CD still doesn't exist outside the design table. The first Type 212CD is still atleast half a decade from entering service.

That said, has Germany really offered the Type 212CD? The articles started off with the Type 214, then a Type 21w derivative, and now the Type 212CD? If true, this is a truly fantastic offering.

it does, Israels Dakar class uses Type-212CD as a baseline, who knows we might get the same variant that Israel is getting.

 

[PARTHAJIT JANA]

If germany really offered type212 cd ,India should grab it. Its a fantastic sub.

 

[GMR]

Great going..gaining real momentum..
It would been really great if VLS was available...

 

[RG]

U212CD is listed at 2500 Tonnage, SK KSSs III is somewhere near 4K ton similar to something like U-216 concepts that was circulating. So TKM has range of submarine till 4K ton. S-80 plus is around 3500 Ton. The tonnage increases due to verticle launcher module and AIP I guess. I doubt the U212/214 in its basic configuration has Verticle missile launch tube, adding it could bring it to the size of SK KSS III size with more fuel and better endurance capacity with a newer stealth design. Just imagining things here

 

[Anant]

U212CD is listed at 2500 Tonnage, SK KSSs III is somewhere near 4K ton similar to something like U-216 concepts that was circulating. So TKM has range of submarine till 4K ton. S-80 plus is around 3500 Ton. The tonnage increases due to verticle launcher module and AIP I guess. I doubt the U212/214 in its basic configuration has Verticle missile launch tube, adding it could bring it to the size of SK KSS III size with more fuel and better endurance capacity with a newer stealth design. Just imagining things here

No, the S80 Plus design is just larger. It doesn't have a VLS module despite it's higher displacement.

That said, while adding a VLS module to an existing design sounds good, it doesn't exactly work. You would have to undertake a significant redesign.

 

[Anant]

it does, Israels Dakar class uses Type-212CD as a baseline, who knows we might get the same variant that Israel is getting.

Perhaps. What little information is available on the Dakar-class does indicate some lessons from the Type 212CD design.

As they say in Hindi, "Agar aisa hai to aapke muh mein ghee-shakkar".

 

[INDIAN]

India needs numbers , just 5-6 submarine will not do good.
We need to order at least 10-12 submarines, and this way we could negotiate greater technolgoy transfer .
As this will be the last foreign orders that India will give , next India needs to develop indigenously , hence as much technology absorption will be good.

 

[Anant]

India needs numbers , just 5-6 submarine will not do good.
We need to order at least 10-12 submarines, and this way we could negotiate greater technolgoy transfer .
As this will be the last foreign orders that India will give , next India needs to develop indigenously , hence as much technology absorption will be good.

I have a feeling we could theoretically go for a 6+3 arrangement (that is, 6 submarines plus 3 options). 12 submarines in one order is not an option, however. Project 76 is in the works, and there is speculation that there may eventually be 12 submarines there, which, if we go with this 6+3 arrangement and exercise the options, would eventually give us 30 modern SSKs.

 

[NSR]

India must remember that ...

1. Japan refused to submit response to P-75I at all but it did for Australia, but France beat it to the contract, and then AUKUS toppled greedy France with its own extra sweeteners.

2. South Korea submitted its own HDW-214 derivative in response for P-75I but later withdrew the offer.
SK is very dubious vendor as it negotiated with India over Mine Counter Measures Vehicles and after five years of negotiations, flatly refused to do TOT at all.

3. France submitted response for P-75I and later withdrew it.

4. Russians had their own responses, but India is not at all impressed with their submittals or technology in them. And also USA CAATSA sanctions affecting arms trade with Russia.

Germany suffering from economic slowdown and so Chancellor Scholz is really trying to sell its HDW-212 variant.
Germany is willing to go to the length to offer 60% TOT by the last or 6th submarine build.
German HDW209s are still plying their trade even after 40+ years of service and did not read any complaints about them or their spare parts supply.
HDW-212 is an extremely sophisticated submarine by any standards and India will immensely benefit by its induction.

Just negotiate well and include enforceable penalty clauses for non-deliveries of submarines and future spares before going with it.
HDW212 will definitely make India a better submarine builder of P-76 than Scorpene ever did so far. India can use sub-assemblies from it in P-76s.

Go for it and get ready for two enemies.

 

[Sandeep]

The submarine Germany are offering is the Type 214 and not the older 212 which isn't capable to meet the modern threats. The navy favour the German submarines over the Spanish submarine but Germany has to be willing to give more critical technology like the sonar, engine, stealth hull, combat suite etc but also allow us to install and use our own torpedos and missiles when we develop it but install our indigenous technology that we have developed.

 

[Anant]

The submarine Germany are offering is the Type 214 and not the older 212 which isn't capable to meet the modern threats. The navy favour the German submarines over the Spanish submarine but Germany has to be willing to give more critical technology like the sonar, engine, stealth hull, combat suite etc but also allow us to install and use our own torpedos and missiles when we develop it but install our indigenous technology that we have developed.

What submarine exactly Germany is offering is still a matter of some debate, but the Type 212 is more capable than the Type 214 on any day. The Type 214 is, in many ways, a downgraded export version of the Type 212 that doesn't feature a number of critical technologies such as a non-magnetic hull.

Are you sure you are not confusing the Type 212 with the older Type 209?

 

[Anant]

India must remember that ...

1. Japan refused to submit response to P-75I at all but it did for Australia, but France beat it to the contract, and then AUKUS toppled greedy France with its own extra sweeteners.

2. South Korea submitted its own HDW-214 derivative in response for P-75I but later withdrew the offer.
SK is very dubious vendor as it negotiated with India over Mine Counter Measures Vehicles and after five years of negotiations, flatly refused to do TOT at all.

3. France submitted response for P-75I and later withdrew it.

4. Russians had their own responses, but India is not at all impressed with their submittals or technology in them. And also USA CAATSA sanctions affecting arms trade with Russia.

Germany suffering from economic slowdown and so Chancellor Scholz is really trying to sell its HDW-212 variant.
Germany is willing to go to the length to offer 60% TOT by the last or 6th submarine build.
German HDW209s are still plying their trade even after 40+ years of service and did not read any complaints about them or their spare parts supply.
HDW-212 is an extremely sophisticated submarine by any standards and India will immensely benefit by its induction.

Just negotiate well and include enforceable penalty clauses for non-deliveries of submarines and future spares before going with it.
HDW212 will definitely make India a better submarine builder of P-76 than Scorpene ever did so far. India can use sub-assemblies from it in P-76s.

Go for it and get ready for two enemies.

1. The South Korean offering to Project 75I was not directly derived from the Type 214. It was essentially a KSS-III submarine without the VLS module. Then again, the KSS-III has taken lessons from South Korea's Type 209 and Type 214 boats, so some connection does exist. Ironically enough, the MCMVs that South Korea was offering (and later pulled out of) are an unlicensed copy of the Italian Lerici-class themselves.

2. Russia's initial offering for the Amur-class (a co-development project) or the Lada-class made some sense. However, the main problem was that Russia doesn't use AIP. Even their newest boats today do not use AIP. Hence, their expertise would be doubtful, to say the least. Their final offering was for Improves Kilo-class submarines (Project 636), which made absolutely no sense.

3. While the reasons for Germany offering the Type 212 can be debates, there is no doubt that these are excellent submarines. As you pointed out, there have been almost no issues with the Type 209-1500 boats we operate (as opposed to a more troubled history for the Kilo-class). In fact, while the original procurement planned a 35 year life for these boats, a combination of their excellent performance and lack of replacements has already led to their life being extended to 4t years.

 

[NSR]

1. The South Korean offering to Project 75I was not directly derived from the Type 214. It was essentially a KSS-III submarine without the VLS module. Then again, the KSS-III has taken lessons from South Korea's Type 209 and Type 214 boats, so some connection does exist. Ironically enough, the MCMVs that South Korea was offering (and later pulled out of) are an unlicensed copy of the Italian Lerici-class themselves.

2. Russia's initial offering for the Amur-class (a co-development project) or the Lada-class made some sense. However, the main problem was that Russia doesn't use AIP. Even their newest boats today do not use AIP. Hence, their expertise would be doubtful, to say the least. Their final offering was for Improves Kilo-class submarines (Project 636), which made absolutely no sense.

3. While the reasons for Germany offering the Type 212 can be debates, there is no doubt that these are excellent submarines. As you pointed out, there have been almost no issues with the Type 209-1500 boats we operate (as opposed to a more troubled history for the Kilo-class). In fact, while the original procurement planned a 35 year life for these boats, a combination of their excellent performance and lack of replacements has already led to their life being extended to 4t years.

Three tracks will put India on a solid track in SSK submarines areas.

1. Upgrade of 6 older Scorpenes with Indian AIPs + 3 new Scorpenes with Indian AIP
2. 6 HDW212+ with German Lion lus AIPs and a possible 6 if Germany cedes 100% TOT by 12th submarine
3. Consecutive design and development of Indian P-76s with all the technologies learned from SSBN, HDW209, Kilos, and future HDW212+s would realize fully indigenous SSK submarine someday.

Worth trying this with dogged determination to safeguard Indian coastlines.

SSBN and SSN stories are getting unfurled with successful 190MW miniaturized nuclear reactor ready to go for larger classes of boats.

All in all India will be successful eventually with its own submarine programs.

 

[Philippe Picard]

Why wouln't it, it is the best (.), conventional diesel electric submarine, we just need to go with whoever offers more TOT.

Indeed, Netherlands ditch them for the barracuda's Groupe Naval (naval group in English)... Google if you don't believe me...

 

[PARTHAJIT JANA]

The submarine Germany are offering is the Type 214 and not the older 212 which isn't capable to meet the modern threats. The navy favour the German submarines over the Spanish submarine but Germany has to be willing to give more critical technology like the sonar, engine, stealth hull, combat suite etc but also allow us to install and use our own torpedos and missiles when we develop it but install our indigenous technology that we have developed.

No type 214 is older than type212 cd. Type 214 is an inferior export variants. Type 212cds are the newest subs for germany and norway.

 

[Sandeep]

No type 214 is older than type212 cd. Type 214 is an inferior export variants. Type 212cds are the newest subs for germany and norway.

Yes which we will never get because we aren’t part of NATO or allies with them.

 

[Ranjeet Singh]

We should go form German SSK and its India specific requirement must have vertical launch tubes capable to fire Nirbhay and BrhaMos-II ( 1000+ km) missiles !