Global 6gen Sixth Generation Aircraft Projects (NGAD, F/A-XX, FCAS, GCAP, B-21, etc)

[Bhartiya Sainik]

For now, as you have not yet decided on tree structure, i would like to combine all 6gen jets in this 1 thread, bcoz it is altogether a future topic with R&D in preliminary stage.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Welcome to the era of development of latest Fighter jets, popularly known as 6th generation Fighters, the 5th gen hunter-killers.

There may not be ISO standard of complex product as a whole like combat aircraft, just like many household & commercial products like trains, trucks, cars, bikes, computers, networking devices, operating systems, applications. But the H/w & S/w components do have ISO standards, Patents, IPR (Intellectual Property Right) with numerous permutation, combination of final product/service. The basic objective remains same in every domain - compete & defeat rivals.
Hence, a leader country/company in any domain won't stop to try to maintain their dominance & will 'de-facto' dictate the characteristics & aspects of that domain's products.
Nobody is stopping anybody to do R&D & come at par with or overtake leader(s).
Any military product/service is also a business opportunity. Wars errupt suddenly & the outcome matters, not excuses & reasons - social, political, financial, etc.

From 1st to 6th gen & future, just like today it is difficult to consider some jets as 4th/5th gen due to overlaps caused by MLUs, same was the case since beginning b/w all previous gens & will be there till eternity. We can say there are primary & secondary features.

Following is a superficial comparison b/w 4th, 5th, 6th gen features. You can refine it further.

> Italy, Japan, UK have teamed up & publicly outlined GCAP (Global Combat Air Program)
> France, Germany, Spain have teamed up & publicly outlined their FCAS (Future Combat Air System)
> Russia is researching on PAKDP, also referred to as MiG-41
> USA is researching on NGAD & F/A-XX programs.
> China has shared a preliminary tail-less airframe with diamond shaped wings.
> Bhartiya Vayu Sena (Indian Air Force) has stated they have a roadmap for 6th gen jet, but have not showed any concept outline yet.


Mitsubishi F-X

BAe Tempest

GCAP (Mitsubishi F-X+ Tempest)

FCAS

Chinese concept

NGAD notional concept in advertisements

No matter how the 6th gen fighters will look, according to preliminary requirements outlined & the upgrades happening on F-22 & F-35, all parameters like size, volume, empty weight, gross weight, MTOW, fuel, longer range weapons, more EW capability, dry/wet thrust, more A/c range, cost, etc would be 30-60% more than present heavy jets like F-22, F-15, Su-57, Su-35, etc.

 

[PRO]

UK Spearheads Multinational Effort with Italy and Japan to Develop Sixth-Generation Fighter Aircraft​

The United Kingdom is taking the lead in a landmark multinational effort to develop a cutting-edge, sixth-generation fighter aircraft. This collaborative endeavor, called the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), brings together the UK, Italy, and Japan in the pursuit of an aerial platform designed to dominate future battlespaces.

The UK has underlined its commitment to GCAP with a multi-billion dollar investment pledge. The March 2021 Defence Command Paper allocated over £2 billion ($2.5 billion) towards the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), the country's component of GCAP, to be spent before 2025. This initial investment is part of a broader £12 billion ($15 billion) budget planned for the project over the next decade. However, the total sum will depend on future assessments.

To propel the project forward, the Ministry of Defence has been highly active in financing vital research and development (R&D). The Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative (FCAS TI) has already received over £1.1 billion ($1.4 billion) in government funding. This commitment is complemented by an additional £600 million ($750 million) from Team Tempest, the UK's industry partners within the project.

GCAP's ambition is to create a next-generation fighter jet that will leverage advanced stealth capabilities and eclipse existing technologies. Envisioned as a replacement for models like the Eurofighter Typhoon – utilized by the Royal Air Force and Italian Air Force – and Japan Air Self-Defense Force's Mitsubishi F-2, this new aircraft has the potential to redefine aerial combat.

 

[PARTHAJIT JANA]

I hope someday amca mk2 can compete with these projects.

 

[sanket]

France have Low Budget best R&D Compare to other western and US ...Rafale project cost is very Low compare to similar project.

 

[Pink Panther]

It is going to be super expensive than Rafale’s $300Mlm, but it will be much capable and more advanced than the 4th gen jet though.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

It is going to be super expensive than Rafale’s $300Mlm, but it will be much capable and more advanced than the 4th gen jet though.

The french inflate the price of rafale. The french govt buys rafale at half the price they sell it to international customers. I know that it is the norm. But still.

That is why we should just buy the few dozen rafale M, and delete MRFA. Invest that money in increasing production of domestic jets and missiles and R&D

 

[Akshat]

The french inflate the price of rafale. The french govt buys rafale at half the price they sell it to international customers. I know that it is the norm. But still.

That is why we should just buy the few dozen rafale M, and delete MRFA. Invest that money in increasing production of domestic jets and missiles and R&D

And yet it defeated EF and F18 on price!

 

[CCPSmasher]

Don't care. Our mighty HAL is going to build our 6th gen in 2340. UK can cry with their 6th gen fighter with reasonable timelines and solid partnerships all around we just don't give a hoot.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

And yet it defeated EF and F18 on price!

I dont know about that. after all the order size was reduced. Details of the deal are murky.

 

[Akshat]

I dont know about that. after all the order size was reduced. Details of the deal are murky.

Nothing murky or unclear. Rafale beat them down on price. It has been officially stated. Unless you wanna allege corruption despite SC and CAG’s clear clean chit.

 

[desigandu]

India should try and become an equity partner in GCAP, now provided UK+Japan+Italy agree.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Nothing murky or unclear. Rafale beat them down on price. It has been officially stated. Unless you wanna allege corruption despite SC and CAG’s clear clean chit.

no I am not alleging corruption. But if rafale beat them on price why was the order cut from original to just 36? I dont believe rafales were cheaper that F-18. Rafales were mainly chosen for being superior and matching our requirements better. The same is the case for Rafale marine.

 

[amerjit johal]

India should try and become an equity partner in GCAP, now provided UK+Japan+Italy agree.

Japan has already said no to Saudi’s
These countries are friends of India
Other than money- I think we have very little to offer technology wise
But we should try and I think they will agree

 

[Akshat]

no I am not alleging corruption. But if rafale beat them on price why was the order cut from original to just 36? I dont believe rafales were cheaper that F-18. Rafales were mainly chosen for being superior and matching our requirements better. The same is the case for Rafale marine.

Your belief doesn’t matter. Navy chief is on record that the requirements were met by both planes and MoD will decide. DPP clearly states that cost shall be the sole factor in case of multiple equipments meeting the requirements. So yes, Rafale beat down F18 on cost. Nothing else but cost.

As for 36, we all know the saga. Nothing to discuss there. Mod has given official statement that Rafale beat EF on cost.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Your belief doesn’t matter. Navy chief is on record that the requirements were met by both planes and MoD will decide. DPP clearly states that cost shall be the sole factor in case of multiple equipments meeting the requirements. So yes, Rafale beat down F18 on cost. Nothing else but cost.

As for 36, we all know the saga. Nothing to discuss there. Mod has given official statement that Rafale beat EF on cost.

I know EF was costly, but I know that F-18 was cheaper. We went for expensive rafale because it was more capable. Just because rafale was cheaper than EF, does not mean it was not super costly. Because it was costly its number was cut down to 36.

 

[De_SECULARISED]

Your belief doesn’t matter. Navy chief is on record that the requirements were met by both planes and MoD will decide. DPP clearly states that cost shall be the sole factor in case of multiple equipments meeting the requirements. So yes, Rafale beat down F18 on cost. Nothing else but cost.

As for 36, we all know the saga. Nothing to discuss there. Mod has given official statement that Rafale beat EF on cost.

You forgot about strings pulling part.

 

[Tanishq Bafila]

The french inflate the price of rafale. The french govt buys rafale at half the price they sell it to international customers. I know that it is the norm. But still.

That is why we should just buy the few dozen rafale M, and delete MRFA. Invest that money in increasing production of domestic jets and missiles and R&D

Difference between CAPEX & OPEX , happens in every procurement...

In india it happens with Tejas mk-1a deals , in USA it happens with F-35 , for Russia it happens in Su-30 and other Sukhoi jets that has already been inducted in various numbers..

I m also not in the favour of MRFA because it will take out $ 30 billion + in long term ( engines , mid life upgrades , Spares ) but it a must considering Tejas mk-2 production timelines...

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Difference between CAPEX & OPEX , happens in every procurement...

In india it happens with Tejas mk-1a deals , in USA it happens with F-35 , for Russia it happens in Su-30 and other Sukhoi jets that has already been inducted in various numbers..

I m also not in the favour of MRFA because it will take out $ 30 billion + in long term ( engines , mid life upgrades , Spares ) but it a must considering Tejas mk-2 production timelines...

what if we invest that 30 billion in our own defence industrial base and set up 2 or 3 production lines for tejas mk2 and another for mk1a. We can 3 times the return.

Important point is that there is local production component of rafale, so if we place order today, how long it will take to setup local production line, and producing 114 aircrafts. I believe that it will take more than 15 years from today to get the last rafale from MRFA. How is this timeline better than just tejas mk2. We can make 2 times the number of tejas mk2 in that much time using that much money.

 

[Abhinay Singh 48]

what if we invest that 30 billion in our own defence industrial base and set up 2 or 3 production lines for tejas mk2 and another for mk1a. We can 3 times the return.

Important point is that there is local production component of rafale, so if we place order today, how long it will take to setup local production line, and producing 114 aircrafts. I believe that it will take more than 15 years from today to get the last rafale from MRFA. How is this timeline better than just tejas mk2. We can make 2 times the number of tejas mk2 in that much time using that much money.

True, we can also invest those money on ORCA program also. We can do many things with those 30 billion.
Even if we have to invest 30 billion on buying foreign jeta then we should go for fifth generation SU-57 with local assembling and should ask Russians for technology transfer of SU-57 engine and we should use that engine in AMCA mk2

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

True, we can also invest those money on ORCA program also. We can do many things with those 30 billion.
Even if we have to invest 30 billion on buying foreign jeta then we should go for fifth generation SU-57 with local assembling and should ask Russians for technology transfer of SU-57 engine and we should use that engine in AMCA mk2

russian engines are subpar, they have lower lifetimes and lower Power to weight than western engines. Anyways I doubt we can make large deals with russians, since america has sanctions on them. We got a special pass for S400 deal. Also, russia is fighting a war right now, so depending on them for anything is out of the question. Looking at SIPRI data, India has not made any new orders from russia for defence products in last 2 years. All our exports from russia in last 2 years in defence sector were based on deals made more than 2 years ago.

 

[NSR]

India must definitely join this project as a fourth partner.
At 1/4th cost of about $4 billions, India will get a 6th generation fighter by 2035.
Best way to catch up to the new generation of fighters.

Partnership will also gains access to new generation of technologies for Indian fighters too.

 

[Primary Goal]

France have Low Budget best R&D Compare to other western and US ...Rafale project cost is very Low compare to similar project.

Rafale is also decade behind compared to F-22 and F-35. Selling older technology is always cheaper. Let’s see how much their FCA costs

 

[Pad UwU]

I hope someday amca mk2 can compete with these projects.

How can it compete it's a 5gen only and still stuck on paper without any working prototype

 

[Pad UwU]

France have Low Budget best R&D Compare to other western and US ...Rafale project cost is very Low compare to similar project.

LMAO I saw a video on YouTube video that rafale f4 and it's latest variant had only a 20mbps fiberoptic speed bust vs f35 military grade fiberoptic speed bust of 3.2gbps.... 😹😹😹
I wonder if it can simultaneously control it's drone and sensor camera's on that kind of speed of 20mbps....

We should insist France of putting a different hardware on our rafales

 

[Pad UwU]

If India join GCAP we just add $5b for the R&D and our expertise in IT programming/computer engineering...plus a a bunch more of engineer in many fields.... Add that we have more raw materials we can be the manufacturing hub for not so crucial components and the other 3 countries should focus on the critical advance subsystems.... As the time flies the other parties would involve of future advance subsystems and transfer the previous production of it's subsystems to India and we will be the maintain provider of the wider group 😺.... Getting India in would make GCAP a $20b project that would benefit us more in the long run. Or if we just let it go we will be on the mercy hands of HAL for more decades to come 😹😹😹

 

[Gooner]

India must definitely join this project as a fourth partner.
At 1/4th cost of about $4 billions, India will get a 6th generation fighter by 2035.
Best way to catch up to the new generation of fighters.

Partnership will also gains access to new generation of technologies for Indian fighters too.

They'll never let them join, India is too close to Russia! They'll sell you their weapons but never their technology.

 

[NSR]

They'll never let them join, India is too close to Russia! They'll sell you their weapons but never their technology.

UK PM Rishi Sunak and his successive defense ministers requested India to join their 6th Generation fighter program.
It is all in the news.

 

[Akshat]

You forgot about strings pulling part.

Talk about facts, not conspiracy theories.

 

[Varaaah]

If India wants to become an independent block and the leader of the Global South, it must never join this project.