India Includes Russia in Negotiations for 5th-Gen AMCA Fighter Jet Engine, 177S Engine with 146kN Thrust Emerges as Potential Contender

In a major development for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has opened the door for Russia to participate in negotiations regarding the engine for the indigenous fifth-generation fighter jet.

This represents a change in strategy, as previous discussions had largely centered on Western engine manufacturers like General Electric (US), Safran (France), and Rolls-Royce (UK).

The inclusion of Russia reflects a growing acknowledgement of the country's advancements in fighter jet engine technology. These advancements could offer substantial benefits to the AMCA, which is intended to be a stealth, multi-role combat aircraft.

Sources familiar with the AMCA program have confirmed that Russia's Rostec, a state-owned defense conglomerate, has proposed its 177S engine. The 177s is presented as a hybrid of the AL-41F1 and AL-51 powerplants. The 177S is specifically designed for fifth-generation tactical aircraft and is claimed to offer increased thrust, better fuel efficiency, and a longer operational lifespan.

The 177S engine, a product of Rostec's United Engine Corporation (UEC), is a significant step forward in Russian engine technology. It leverages technology from the AL-41F1 (currently powering the Sukhoi Su-57 "Felon") and the more advanced AL-51. The engine is reported to deliver a maximum thrust of 14,500 kgf (approximately 142 kN).

Its service life is projected to be up to 6,000 hours, significantly outlasting older engines like the AL-31FP used in India's Su-30 MKI fleet. Furthermore, reports indicate that the 177S achieves at least a 7% reduction in fuel consumption, which is crucial for extending the range of a stealth aircraft like the AMCA.

Further research suggests that the AL-41F1, on which the 177S is partially based, features a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system, enhancing engine management and responsiveness. This likely carries over to the 177S.

Russian officials have highlighted the 177S's adaptability, stating that it is designed to meet the rigorous demands of fifth-generation aircraft. They suggest that the engine's thrust can be even further increased by relaxing service life needs, offering potential performance gains.

This flexibility makes the 177S a potential candidate not only for the AMCA but also for other aircraft, including the Su-57E export variant, which Russia has previously proposed for co-production with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

A key consideration is the 177S engine's thrust rating. AMCA engineers have previously indicated a need for an engine in the 110-120 kN thrust range to achieve the desired balance of stealth, supercruise (the ability to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners), and overall performance. The 177S, with its 142 kN thrust, surpasses this requirement.

A Russian official has suggested that the additional power could provide significant advantages in terms of speed and maneuverability. The official further proposed that India could optimize the engine's performance by incorporating a 2D flat nozzle design, reminiscent of the one used on the American F-22 Raptor.

Unlike the more common axisymmetric nozzles, a 2D nozzle can improve an aircraft's stealth characteristics by reducing its infrared signature and enhance maneuverability through thrust vectoring. These are essential capabilities for a fifth-generation fighter expected to operate in challenging environments.

The inclusion of Russia in the engine negotiations broadens India's options as it moves forward with the critical AMCA program. A final decision on the engine selection will likely involve a complex evaluation of technical specifications, cost, technology transfer, and strategic considerations.

 

[sanket]

Wow, for a long time I have been saying the Super Sukhoi upgrade should consider an AL-51 derivative instead of the AL-31. Just look at the combo of an AL-51 derivative, the Virupaksha GaN-based AESA radar, plus the GANDIV BVR missile; it will make the Super Sukhoi dominate the sky. If Russian entry is allowed, that means there are some shortcomings from the West as far as sharing of tech is concerned.

Third, if it is accepted Russian Engine, then all drama/arm-twisting from the US for the GE-404 will end. Further, any delay in the fighter jet project. Only the question is the dimension & weight issue. Finally, chances of the Su-57 winning MRFA are bright. I have been commenting for the last few months, the Su-57 is a dark horse.

Mark my word, wake-up call for Dassault, it will lose all MRFA, engine partner for 110 kN race & consultant for the AMCA project too. A common engine for the Super Sukhoi upgrade & AMCA (142 kN Thrust) with economies of scale will be more beneficial than having two different category engines. From the eco-system to sourcing components and spares indigenously. Both being twin-engine fighter jets & with enhanced thrust, both fighter jets will be agile in the air. It can be integrated with dual, and triple pylons to carry more BVR/WVR missiles with an increase in thrust, plus hypersonic heavy missiles too.

 

[swatkats_razor]

Noice.
Deng Xiaoping, the paramount leader of China between 1978 and 1989, had once said,
"it doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice".
This is probably the Indian Air Force's Deng Moment.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

This means that the final decision is going to be delayed again

 

[Rinku Pandey]

Great decision by GOI. After GE404 fiasco, GOI realised that Bharat can't bank on single engine supplier. Modiji should call Dolandji and request delivery of GE404 engines asap. GE414 engine deal hasn't been signed as well. Situation looks bleak for IAF.

 

[DNA57]

A very good decision taken Govt of India.... this will effectively counter the decite taken by all western jet engine makers.

 

[Baiju Bhaskaran]

Finally a good decision after a long time. The west can never be trusted.

 

[Sparkle Studio]

We continue to have a trust deficit with respect to the West honoring a written contract. All of them have a history of agreeing to terms of tender and later reneging on agreed offset clauses. If Russia is offering to team up with India, not only with design but also material science & hot component metallurgy, we can leapfrog in turbojet engine technology.

 

[Bharat]

Wow, for a long time I have been saying the Super Sukhoi upgrade should consider an AL-51 derivative instead of the AL-31. Just look at the combo of an AL-51 derivative, the Virupaksha GaN-based AESA radar, plus the GANDIV BVR missile; it will make the Super Sukhoi dominate the sky. If Russian entry is allowed, that means there are some shortcomings from the West as far as sharing of tech is concerned.

The only concern is time, why so much time is wasted? We know its lengthy process but not this much...

 

[Vasugali]

Perhaps even Tejas Mk2 may be redesigned to accommodate 177s engine in face of the GE 404/414 drama

 

[Sunny]

The 177S engine is designed to fit into SU-30 and not AMCA, it's dimensions being significantly larger than GE F414. The article evades this key question and focuses on thrust, which the AMCA airframe might not be designed to handle as 130kn is the supposed upgradable thrust for the engine to be co-developed. Intregrating 177S would probably require significant changes to AMCA design delaying the program.

 

[Paul]

Mark my word, wake-up call for Dassault, it will lose all MRFA, engine partner for 110 kN race & consultant for the AMCA project too. A common engine for the Super Sukhoi upgrade & AMCA (142 kN Thrust) with economies of scale will be more beneficial than having two different category engines. From the eco-system to sourcing components and spares indigenously. Both being twin-engine fighter jets & with enhanced thrust, both fighter jets will be agile in the air. It can be integrated with dual, and triple pylons to carry more BVR/WVR missiles with an increase in thrust, plus hypersonic heavy missiles too.

How is it possible for such a large engine to be used in the AMCA project? The dimensions are completely different.

 

[Ayush raj]

It is not about technological advancement; it is about sending a message to the West. India has realized from the GE-F404 that the delay is intentional, to squeeze the government of India into a tight spot. Because if the Tejas couldn't be delivered on time, it will put pressure on the IAF, followed by protests in Parliament by the opposition. As to why the squadron of the IAF is so low, even common people who don't know a thing about defense would be spitting fire because they would have heard from the news that Pakistan is buying 5th gen, and India is lagging in numbers, further increasing the demand of the GE-F404 to the highest. Then, the US will have very huge leverage, and it will put the F-15, F-21 (rebranded F-16) on the negotiation table (there maybe an F-35 package, but chances are low), alongside various other equipment to purchase in exchange for the GE-F404/414.

But since Russia entered the arena, now the leverage is with us, indicating that if the West is not ready to cooperate fully on engine development and 100% ToT with IPR, then we have another partner who is ready to do all of this at a low price. This will give an edge in the negotiation of engine co-development, as Europe desperately needs India's growing military manufacturing capacity to rearm itself in the coming decades. Since the USA can't be trusted, they are turning towards India as a potential partner to develop and manufacture weapons for Europe, as most of Europe's weapon facilities are destroyed by America's lobbying and monopoly on weapon supply. The only exception is France, which is somewhat independent.

In short, this is a great move to include Russia. It will put pressure on the other side to be more submissive on the negotiation table instead of exhibiting typical white, arrogant behavior. Because Europe also needs a 5th and 6th gen engine for its own needs, and they don't want to spend that much money alone, so they are trying to use India as a cash cow who will fund 50%, or perhaps more than 50%, of the project cost. And we are willing to do that, but the problem is their arrogance and hesitation in sharing technology. That is why this move is necessary to force them to share every niche technology. We should have done this earlier.

 

[Avada kedavra]

I have a feeling this is a silent admission that they are not getting the deal they were expecting from Rolls-Royce and Safran. By adding Russia, they are trying to say they have options, even though they don't.

Russian jets are just outright inferior. They consume too much fuel. Their maintenance cycle is high, the main reason why half of the time the rooski jets are grounded.

 

[Rajesh]

India should seek Russian engine tech for AMCA program with IP rights !

 

[AK S]

The 177S engine is designed to fit into SU-30 and not AMCA, it's dimensions being significantly larger than GE F414. The article evades this key question and focuses on thrust, which the AMCA airframe might not be designed to handle as 130kn is the supposed upgradable thrust for the engine to be co-developed. Intregrating 177S would probably require significant changes to AMCA design delaying the program.

Your observation is correct. Having said that, it will be a fresh design... the same engine can't be used anyways. Item 177S is at a TD stage, not even at the prototype stage. So, we'd need deep investment and another decade for a production-ready engine that will power the entire range of fighter jets (AMCA, TEDBF, MK2, and even Su-30MKI, which will need another engine). If (and it's a very big IF) we do decide to forgo Western engine options (essentially GE F414, around which all existing designs are centered, or Eurojet, which can possibly replace GE F414), it will be one of the biggest strategic shifts, and only the US is to be blamed for it.

First, they pushed Russia into a Chinese embrace, and now they are pushing India back to Russian arms. Great powers are prone to making silly mistakes.

 

[PrasannaBJN]

These europeans like France just say TOT but later charge high amount and they dont transfer critical components technology and blackmail us. US on the other hand keeps delaying purposefully to supply engines. Its better to Trust snakes rather than US and Europe. Always Russia is a Friend and eventhough its not as high quality as western counterparts ateaest there is a Trust between India and Russia..

 

[abhinav srivastava]

For next decade or so we have to be dependent on foreign engines. It would be very big failure if we don't invest sufficiently and develop our own jet engines. No one will offer full tech transfer.

 

[SURESH RAO]

This engine is too big (in size and thrust) for AMCA. It can fit well into Su-30 MKI. India should look at this engine for Su-30 MKI upgradation. Moreover, AMCA Airframe is designed keeping GE 414 in mind. Any change in the Engine, will require re designing the AMCA Airframe and Engine Bay

The empty weight of AMCA is 12.5 tonnes. The empty weight of Su-30 MKI is 17.5 tonnes.

 

[MANIVANNAN N]

Right decision. Super engune. Reliable partner. Scaling down not going to be problem.

 

[AK S]

How is it possible for such a large engine to be used in the AMCA project? The dimensions are completely different.

Fully agreed. For AMCA, TEDBF and Tejas Mk2, engine will be a fresh design, does not matter which development partner we use. Item 177S is still at TD stage (not even prototype). Even in the existing form, we need to invest deeply and wait for another decade for Item 177S to power Su30MKI.

For the existing designs of AMCA, TEDBF and Tejas MK2, Eurojet is the only existing engine, which can potentially replace F414. Even that would delay Tejas Mk2 and even AMCA by few years. Tejas MK1A situation is worse as there is no realistic replacement for F404, M88 is the closest but lacks in thrust. So we need to cajole US, if need be incentivise. We cant afford western jets (either French or American) in large numbers. They are super expensive. Backbone will be either indigenous system or cheaper Russian options. Worst case, we will be forced to do a hard reset and completely go back to Russian fighter jet system, fairly bad choice but then it's the absolute worst case.

 

[The_rED_dEVIL]

Wow, for a long time I have been saying the Super Sukhoi upgrade should consider an AL-51 derivative instead of the AL-31. Just look at the combo of an AL-51 derivative, the Virupaksha GaN-based AESA radar, plus the GANDIV BVR missile; it will make the Super Sukhoi dominate the sky. If Russian entry is allowed, that means there are some shortcomings from the West as far as sharing of tech is concerned.

Third, if it is accepted Russian Engine, then all drama/arm-twisting from the US for the GE-404 will end. Further, any delay in the fighter jet project. Only the question is the dimension & weight issue. Finally, chances of the Su-57 winning MRFA are bright. I have been commenting for the last few months, the Su-57 is a dark horse.

Mark my word, wake-up call for Dassault, it will lose all MRFA, engine partner for 110 kN race & consultant for the AMCA project too. A common engine for the Super Sukhoi upgrade & AMCA (142 kN Thrust) with economies of scale will be more beneficial than having two different category engines. From the eco-system to sourcing components and spares indigenously. Both being twin-engine fighter jets & with enhanced thrust, both fighter jets will be agile in the air. It can be integrated with dual, and triple pylons to carry more BVR/WVR missiles with an increase in thrust, plus hypersonic heavy missiles too.

Russia's defence & aerospace R&D is stagnant... Their engines may have higher thrust with vectoring, but all the technologies are mostly of Soviet era. Example, the Su-57 is physically an enhanced, developed version of the Su-30MKI, which is why people doubt its RCS.

Further, Russian engines are more prone to Foreign Object Damage, which increases restrictions on aircraft operations and maintenance cost, as well as complex air intake designs.

Moreover, a common engine for the Su-30MKI and AMCA is not possible. They have a generation gap, and their MTOW differs by 13 tonnes! 110 kN is already an excess from a basic requirement of 105 kN per engine (check Wiki and respective sources). The F-35 has a total thrust output of 191 kN with afterburner, even though its MTOW is 4 tonnes higher than the expected MTOW of AMCA. So, a total of 220 kN is enough.

 

[Roberto]

This engine is too big (in size and thrust) for AMCA. It can fit well into Su-30 MKI. India should look at this engine for Su-30 MKI upgradation. Moreover, AMCA Airframe is designed keeping GE 414 in mind. Any change in the Engine, will require re designing the AMCA Airframe and Engine Bay

The empty weight of AMCA is 12.5 tonnes. The empty weight of Su-30 MKI is 17.5 tonnes.

It makes more sense for the Su-30 upgrade (and possibly the Mk2) and for a scaled-down version of the AL-51 for the AMCA.

 

[Roberto]

I have a feeling this is a silent admission that they are not getting the deal they were expecting from Rolls-Royce and Safran. By adding Russia, they are trying to say they have options, even though they don't.

Russian jets are just outright inferior. They consume too much fuel. Their maintenance cycle is high, the main reason why half of the time the rooski jets are grounded.

F-35 is very similar in this regard - too much power for a single engine that's not variable cycle (bypass), coating issues... It's true for old RUS engines, but they're catching up. Looks like the AL-51 is a variable engine - that's why it takes so long (and by the thrust figures too). Btw, Russia made a fiberglass "cover" for stealth paint, so it's lifetime, which is a huge operational advantage.

 

[SURESH RAO]

It makes more sense for the Su-30 upgrade (and possibly the Mk2) and for a scaled-down version of the AL-51 for the AMCA.

What I read is that minimum modification of the Su-30MKI is required for integrating the 177S engine. Whereas, the AL-41 and AL-51 engines will require major modification in the Su-30MKI.