India Includes Russia in Negotiations for 5th-Gen AMCA Fighter Jet Engine, 177S Engine with 146kN Thrust Emerges as Potential Contender

In a major development for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has opened the door for Russia to participate in negotiations regarding the engine for the indigenous fifth-generation fighter jet.

This represents a change in strategy, as previous discussions had largely centered on Western engine manufacturers like General Electric (US), Safran (France), and Rolls-Royce (UK).

The inclusion of Russia reflects a growing acknowledgement of the country's advancements in fighter jet engine technology. These advancements could offer substantial benefits to the AMCA, which is intended to be a stealth, multi-role combat aircraft.

Sources familiar with the AMCA program have confirmed that Russia's Rostec, a state-owned defense conglomerate, has proposed its 177S engine. The 177s is presented as a hybrid of the AL-41F1 and AL-51 powerplants. The 177S is specifically designed for fifth-generation tactical aircraft and is claimed to offer increased thrust, better fuel efficiency, and a longer operational lifespan.

The 177S engine, a product of Rostec's United Engine Corporation (UEC), is a significant step forward in Russian engine technology. It leverages technology from the AL-41F1 (currently powering the Sukhoi Su-57 "Felon") and the more advanced AL-51. The engine is reported to deliver a maximum thrust of 14,500 kgf (approximately 142 kN).

Its service life is projected to be up to 6,000 hours, significantly outlasting older engines like the AL-31FP used in India's Su-30 MKI fleet. Furthermore, reports indicate that the 177S achieves at least a 7% reduction in fuel consumption, which is crucial for extending the range of a stealth aircraft like the AMCA.

Further research suggests that the AL-41F1, on which the 177S is partially based, features a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system, enhancing engine management and responsiveness. This likely carries over to the 177S.

Russian officials have highlighted the 177S's adaptability, stating that it is designed to meet the rigorous demands of fifth-generation aircraft. They suggest that the engine's thrust can be even further increased by relaxing service life needs, offering potential performance gains.

This flexibility makes the 177S a potential candidate not only for the AMCA but also for other aircraft, including the Su-57E export variant, which Russia has previously proposed for co-production with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

A key consideration is the 177S engine's thrust rating. AMCA engineers have previously indicated a need for an engine in the 110-120 kN thrust range to achieve the desired balance of stealth, supercruise (the ability to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners), and overall performance. The 177S, with its 142 kN thrust, surpasses this requirement.

A Russian official has suggested that the additional power could provide significant advantages in terms of speed and maneuverability. The official further proposed that India could optimize the engine's performance by incorporating a 2D flat nozzle design, reminiscent of the one used on the American F-22 Raptor.

Unlike the more common axisymmetric nozzles, a 2D nozzle can improve an aircraft's stealth characteristics by reducing its infrared signature and enhance maneuverability through thrust vectoring. These are essential capabilities for a fifth-generation fighter expected to operate in challenging environments.

The inclusion of Russia in the engine negotiations broadens India's options as it moves forward with the critical AMCA program. A final decision on the engine selection will likely involve a complex evaluation of technical specifications, cost, technology transfer, and strategic considerations.

 

[Ammoman]

Russia is broke and desperate. Give them $2b or whatever the money is, in gold or cash if they want it. Buy the engine technology. Send 1000 of the best minds in India to learn every aspects of the engine and the technology to master all aspects of the technology. It's not trivial. We are talking about 75 years of Russian knowhow. Probably talking about $50b in today's dollars. India will never get there, too much graft, spies, bureaucracy and the damm babus. Thousand and thousands of Russians died to get where they are today. In the cold war it was life and death. For many, it was the gulag or firing squad. We started 50 years too late, money can let us catch up. India has to stop thinking they have made it when India is still a developing country. The next 20 years are going to be ugly, allies are not allies. Old empires don't go down without a fight. The fight is just starting. Look how the US is treating its best allies.

 

[AK S]

Russia's defence & aerospace R&D is stagnant... Their engines may have higher thrust with vectoring, but all the technologies are mostly of Soviet era. Example, the Su-57 is physically an enhanced, developed version of the Su-30MKI, which is why people doubt its RCS.

Further, Russian engines are more prone to Foreign Object Damage, which increases restrictions on aircraft operations and maintenance cost, as well as complex air intake designs.

Moreover, a common engine for the Su-30MKI and AMCA is not possible. They have a generation gap, and their MTOW differs by 13 tonnes! 110 kN is already an excess from a basic requirement of 105 kN per engine (check Wiki and respective sources). The F-35 has a total thrust output of 191 kN with afterburner, even though its MTOW is 4 tonnes higher than the expected MTOW of AMCA. So, a total of 220 kN is enough.

GE F414 for existing designs of AMCA, Tejas Mk2, and TEDBF is the best option, and we are largely locked in. Eurojet can potentially replace it, but it will need critical design changes involving CoG and air-intake, which will delay the production by a few years.

Though Russian Item 30 (or AL51) is still under final certification, it's much closer to Western standards in terms of MTB, T/W ratio, inlet temperature, fuel efficiency, etc. In a few areas (thermal signature and 2D/3D thrust vectoring), it is even better than the European options. Having said that, Item 177S is not yet ready and will need significant investment and about a decade for it to mature and successfully power Su30MKI. A new design based on Item 177S can potentially power AMCA, Tejas Mk2, and TEDBF, but, again, [it is] a good decade plus away.

In my opinion, the current arrangement with GE for the existing program and Safran as the co-development partner for a new design are the best choices.

 

[Roberto]

What I read is that minimum modification of the Su-30MKI is required for integrating the 177S engine. Whereas, the AL-41 and AL-51 engines will require major modification in the Su-30MKI.

You meant major mods for Tejas mk2

 

[P2S2]

The 177S engine is designed to fit into SU-30 and not AMCA, it's dimensions being significantly larger than GE F414. The article evades this key question and focuses on thrust, which the AMCA airframe might not be designed to handle as 130kn is the supposed upgradable thrust for the engine to be co-developed. Intregrating 177S would probably require significant changes to AMCA design delaying the program.

Dump those deficiencies. Get a clean board for all future planned technologies. Russia has woken up and leaned down to assist India. History has repeated itself. Thanks to our contributions through unsolicited comments. May our civilisation prosper.

 

[Anshuman Dev]

WOW !!! Incredible idea.
Someone is seriously thinking for the country....

Russia wouldn't have as much reservations in Engine TOT, as compared to Safran / GE....

BUT, make it Quick

 

[AK S]

What I read is that minimum modification of the Su-30MKI is required for integrating the 177S engine. Whereas, the AL-41 and AL-51 engines will require major modification in the Su-30MKI.

AL41 is drop-in replacement of AL31 and is improved version. It's in production. Item 177S is a TD and will require significant investment and time for it to mature and power Su30MKI. One can even start a fresh design based on Item 177S to replace GE F414 in future (this is what this article is alluding to).

 

[P2S2]

You meant major mods for Tejas mk2

Completely separate super Teja from a new drawing board. Get brand new young engineers to come up with possibilities. Switch the clock to ticking mode. New thinking new methods of delivery. First get that engine ToT in hand. In the meantime continue as usual. Every proposal, every bit of information, every way of thinking empowers us. If we continue mastering the basic Chinese tech that have used to challenge the west, we'll stop fearing them.

 

[P2S2]

AL41 is drop-in replacement of AL31 and is improved version. It's in production. Item 177S is a TD and will require significant investment and time for it to mature and power Su30MKI. One can even start a fresh design based on Item 177S to replace GE F414 in future (this is what this article is alluding to).

AL41 AL51 production runs will continue into 177S production solving powering systems deficiencies. 450 planned orders are possible It's a good prospect for any start up, money is assured, orders are guaranteed. All that needs to be proven is ability.

 

[SURESH RAO]

You meant major mods for Tejas mk2

Tejas MK2 design is frozen. Prototype under construction. Eight GE 414 engines already received from GE for prototypes. Tejas MK2 Airframe optimized for GE 414 engine

 

[P2S2]

Tejas MK2 design is frozen. Prototype under construction. Eight GE 414 engines already received from GE for prototypes. Tejas MK2 Airframe optimized for GE 414 engine

Good news.

 

[Sudha]

GE F414 for existing designs of AMCA, Tejas Mk2, and TEDBF is the best option, and we are largely locked in. Eurojet can potentially replace it, but it will need critical design changes involving CoG and air-intake, which will delay the production by a few years.

Really? Then, like F404, Bharat will have to wait for a long time since the US, even under Trump, is arm-twisting Bharat for engine tech. Think you have a magic wand to wish all these troubles away, right?

 

[Sudha]

We continue to have a trust deficit with respect to the West honoring a written contract. All of them have a history of agreeing to terms of tender and later reneging on agreed offset clauses. If Russia is offering to team up with India, not only with design but also material science & hot component metallurgy, we can leapfrog in turbojet engine technology.

Yup, that is why we are still importing. What good has Russian tech transfer or license production done to Bharat's defence industry? Zilch!! We are still dependent on them for parts.

 

[AK S]

Really? Then, like F404, Bharat will have to wait for a long time since the US, even under Trump, is arm-twisting Bharat for engine tech. Think you have a magic wand to wish all these troubles away, right?

Unfortunately, yes. We are fully locked in for F404, the worst hit. There is really no replacement. M88 (seriously under-powered) and RD33Modern (tech is old and suffers from low MTBH and low fuel efficiency) are out of the question. We have no choice but to appease Trump in the near term. That's the best.

The bulk of fighter jets have to be indigenous (or Russian). We can afford only a low, single-digit squadron of western jets. Even that will affect indigenous programs. I wish our government and military leadership had invested in Kaveri. Even if we'd invested after the Safran audit in 2018, by now, we would have Kaveri as an alternative. Certainly not as good, but still good enough.

 

[Sudha]

Unfortunately, yes. We are fully locked in for F404, the worst hit. There is really no replacement. M88 (seriously under-powered) and RD33Modern (tech is old and suffers from low MTBH and low fuel efficiency) are out of the question. We have no choice but to appease Trump in the near term. That's the best.

Knowing everything, the GOI has not even considered supporting a JV of DPSUs with the private sector and academia. This is very backward thinking by the "Make in India" government.

 

[Sudha]

India should seek Russian engine tech for AMCA program with IP rights !

Did Bharat get any high-tech from the Russians since 1947? If we had got it, then why are we still the second-biggest importer of military equipment?

 

[SURESH RAO]

AL41 is drop-in replacement of AL31 and is improved version. It's in production. Item 177S is a TD and will require significant investment and time for it to mature and power Su30MKI. One can even start a fresh design based on Item 177S to replace GE F414 in future (this is what this article is alluding to).

If AL41 is a drop in replacement for AL31. Then India should go for AL41 for Su 30MKI Upgrade. But AL41 is a high thrust engine compared to AL31. So modification in the Airframe may be required.

 

[SURESH RAO]

We need two GE414 engines to drive AMCA giving a total of 110*2 = 220 kN thrust

Or we need three Snecma M88 engines to drive AMCA giving a total of 75*3 = 225 kN thrust

Now the famous Chai Samosa Cartoon in this group can design AMCA powered with three Snecma Engines along with reputed Academicians

 

[Karan Gogoi]

For AMCA, TEDBF and Tejas Mk2, engine will be a fresh design, does not matter which development partner we use. Item 177S is still at TD stage (not even prototype). Even in the existing form, we need to invest deeply and wait for another decade for Item 177S to power Su30MKI.

How can an already existing jet engine be "too large" for something that's still on the drawing boards? Not even a prototype exists yet. There are no set dimensions for AMCA that have been locked and finalized.... It can't be because it's under development. Dimensions can always be altered considering the engine they chose to go with, and always change from concept to prototype (3-4 variations considering the test results) and production-ready airframe.

The latest F-16s, F-15EX, Su-57E, Su-57M, etc., are all perfect examples. All their dimensions are different from earlier versions depending upon upgrades.

177s - TD stage?
Well no, all the ground and lab tests have been completed. Only flight tests remain. The engine is complete in every other sense.

Like previously mentioned, AMCA, TEDBF, and Tejas Mk2 are all on the drawing boards, so they do not have any finalized dimensions. Even at the prototype stage, things change according to parts availability, supply chain, and test results. If there are delays, then more than likely, it would be slow-working bureaucracy at fault than anything else. HAL couldn't manufacture 1 Tejas Mk1A for Aero India even though GE has supplied 1 engine and the rest are delayed.

Russian fighter jet systems are fairly bad..... How exactly? Not saying that India shouldn't develop its own, but every Russian fighter has served in the IAF with excellent performance and record! And latest metallurgical breakthroughs have allowed Russia to make significant strides with AL-41, AL-51, AL-51F1, GTD-110M, etc. engines!

Just because something is hyper-costly doesn't mean it's good, and just because something is affordable/cheaper doesn't mean it's bad. The past few years have given more than enough examples of how Western equipment/systems, though hyped insanely well, fall short in real-life scenarios and are often just over-inflated. The F-35, with all its bells and whistles, falls from the skies almost every Tuesday and suffers more downtime/low combat readiness due to mechanical or technical failures than any other jet in history.

BTW, since Russia is the only nation that's offering ToT for engines, I don't think indigenization would be a problem.

People always forget that Russia is one of the only two BIGs (which includes the US) who have the longest consistent history of defense aviation in the world and also having invented helicopters. So they KNOW aviation, fighter jets, and jet engine designs better than most and have an extremely deep knowledge pool to draw upon.

 

[Sunny]

Your observation is correct. Having said that, it will be a fresh design... the same engine can't be used anyways. Item 177S is at a TD stage, not even at the prototype stage. So, we'd need deep investment and another decade for a production-ready engine that will power the entire range of fighter jets (AMCA, TEDBF, MK2, and even Su-30MKI, which will need another engine). If (and it's a very big IF) we do decide to forgo Western engine options (essentially GE F414, around which all existing designs are centered, or Eurojet, which can possibly replace GE F414), it will be one of the biggest strategic shifts, and only the US is to be blamed for it.

First, they pushed Russia into a Chinese embrace, and now they are pushing India back to Russian arms. Great powers are prone to making silly mistakes.

Agreed. Russia offering the 117S engine is most likely a way to get funds to develop advanced variants of the AL-51, while offering us a somewhat less advanced engine. It's unlikely we will go with Russia, at least for the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, and AMCA engine development. If we decide to extend SU-30 production or develop a heavy category fighter, then we could go with the 117S or a similar engine with Russia.

 

[Dredd]

Fully agreed. For AMCA, TEDBF and Tejas Mk2, engine will be a fresh design, does not matter which development partner we use. Item 177S is still at TD stage (not even prototype). Even in the existing form, we need to invest deeply and wait for another decade for Item 177S to power Su30MKI.

We can engage Russia to have an alternative for the F404 engine, based on Kaveri and RD-93, with increased thrust and better life expectancy, which could be used in the Tejas Mk1 MLU and HLFT.

 

[Python]

Russia is the most reliable option for india compared with Britain and France.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

India should seriously consider Russian option and evaluate all of them in technology superiority terms and TOT offers. But we should decide fast keeping in mind that Russian have not cheated us as much as others.

 

[Praveen]

Unfortunately, yes. We are fully locked in for F404, the worst hit. There is really no replacement. M88 (seriously under-powered) and RD33Modern (tech is old and suffers from low MTBH and low fuel efficiency) are out of the question. We have no choice but to appease Trump in the near term. That's the best.

In fact, there is a replacement for even the F-404, not to mention the F-414; that is the EJ-200, which is used in the Eurofighter Typhoon. This engine is smaller than the F-404 but has even more thrust than the F-414. Many will ask how it has more thrust than the F-414. Well, in terms of dry thrust, it has 60 kN of thrust, which is the one normally used, compared to 53 kN of the F-404 and 58 kN of the F-414. Afterburning thrust is less, with only 90 kN, but it is greater than the F-404 and may be less than the F-414, but there are plans to increase the thrust by 20%. We can take that chance, not sit waiting like a joker.

 

[Pankaj]

Wow, for a long time I have been saying the Super Sukhoi upgrade should consider an AL-51 derivative instead of the AL-31. Just look at the combo of an AL-51 derivative, the Virupaksha GaN-based AESA radar, plus the GANDIV BVR missile; it will make the Super Sukhoi dominate the sky. If Russian entry is allowed, that means there are some shortcomings from the West as far as sharing of tech is concerned.

All the things are okay and seem good, but there is one main concern: that after a fresh deal with Russia, GE may stop the supply of F404 engines for the Tejas Mark 1A, which is unaffordable for us at the moment. We have already invested huge time and money in creating a complete ecosystem for the development of the Tejas Mark 1A. Replacing the engine may delay the whole process, such as integration, testing, certification, and induction, by at least 4-5 years.

 

[P2S2]

It is not about technological advancement; it is about sending a message to the West. India has realized from the GE-F404 that the delay is intentional, to squeeze the government of India into a tight spot. Because if the Tejas couldn't be delivered on time, it will put pressure on the IAF, followed by protests in Parliament by the opposition. As to why the squadron of the IAF is so low, even common people who don't know a thing about defense would be spitting fire because they would have heard from the news that Pakistan is buying 5th gen, and India is lagging in numbers, further increasing the demand of the GE-F404 to the highest. Then, the US will have very huge leverage, and it will put the F-15, F-21 (rebranded F-16) on the negotiation table (there maybe an F-35 package, but chances are low), alongside various other equipment to purchase in exchange for the GE-F404/414.

But since Russia entered the arena, now the leverage is with us, indicating that if the West is not ready to cooperate fully on engine development and 100% ToT with IPR, then we have another partner who is ready to do all of this at a low price. This will give an edge in the negotiation of engine co-development, as Europe desperately needs India's growing military manufacturing capacity to rearm itself in the coming decades. Since the USA can't be trusted, they are turning towards India as a potential partner to develop and manufacture weapons for Europe, as most of Europe's weapon facilities are destroyed by America's lobbying and monopoly on weapon supply. The only exception is France, which is somewhat independent.

In short, this is a great move to include Russia. It will put pressure on the other side to be more submissive on the negotiation table instead of exhibiting typical white, arrogant behavior. Because Europe also needs a 5th and 6th gen engine for its own needs, and they don't want to spend that much money alone, so they are trying to use India as a cash cow who will fund 50%, or perhaps more than 50%, of the project cost. And we are willing to do that, but the problem is their arrogance and hesitation in sharing technology. That is why this move is necessary to force them to share every niche technology. We should have done this earlier.

Absolutely correct.