India Includes Russia in Negotiations for 5th-Gen AMCA Fighter Jet Engine, 177S Engine with 146kN Thrust Emerges as Potential Contender

In a major development for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has opened the door for Russia to participate in negotiations regarding the engine for the indigenous fifth-generation fighter jet.

This represents a change in strategy, as previous discussions had largely centered on Western engine manufacturers like General Electric (US), Safran (France), and Rolls-Royce (UK).

The inclusion of Russia reflects a growing acknowledgement of the country's advancements in fighter jet engine technology. These advancements could offer substantial benefits to the AMCA, which is intended to be a stealth, multi-role combat aircraft.

Sources familiar with the AMCA program have confirmed that Russia's Rostec, a state-owned defense conglomerate, has proposed its 177S engine. The 177s is presented as a hybrid of the AL-41F1 and AL-51 powerplants. The 177S is specifically designed for fifth-generation tactical aircraft and is claimed to offer increased thrust, better fuel efficiency, and a longer operational lifespan.

The 177S engine, a product of Rostec's United Engine Corporation (UEC), is a significant step forward in Russian engine technology. It leverages technology from the AL-41F1 (currently powering the Sukhoi Su-57 "Felon") and the more advanced AL-51. The engine is reported to deliver a maximum thrust of 14,500 kgf (approximately 142 kN).

Its service life is projected to be up to 6,000 hours, significantly outlasting older engines like the AL-31FP used in India's Su-30 MKI fleet. Furthermore, reports indicate that the 177S achieves at least a 7% reduction in fuel consumption, which is crucial for extending the range of a stealth aircraft like the AMCA.

Further research suggests that the AL-41F1, on which the 177S is partially based, features a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system, enhancing engine management and responsiveness. This likely carries over to the 177S.

Russian officials have highlighted the 177S's adaptability, stating that it is designed to meet the rigorous demands of fifth-generation aircraft. They suggest that the engine's thrust can be even further increased by relaxing service life needs, offering potential performance gains.

This flexibility makes the 177S a potential candidate not only for the AMCA but also for other aircraft, including the Su-57E export variant, which Russia has previously proposed for co-production with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

A key consideration is the 177S engine's thrust rating. AMCA engineers have previously indicated a need for an engine in the 110-120 kN thrust range to achieve the desired balance of stealth, supercruise (the ability to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners), and overall performance. The 177S, with its 142 kN thrust, surpasses this requirement.

A Russian official has suggested that the additional power could provide significant advantages in terms of speed and maneuverability. The official further proposed that India could optimize the engine's performance by incorporating a 2D flat nozzle design, reminiscent of the one used on the American F-22 Raptor.

Unlike the more common axisymmetric nozzles, a 2D nozzle can improve an aircraft's stealth characteristics by reducing its infrared signature and enhance maneuverability through thrust vectoring. These are essential capabilities for a fifth-generation fighter expected to operate in challenging environments.

The inclusion of Russia in the engine negotiations broadens India's options as it moves forward with the critical AMCA program. A final decision on the engine selection will likely involve a complex evaluation of technical specifications, cost, technology transfer, and strategic considerations.

 

[Python]

Yup, that is why we are still importing. What good has Russian tech transfer or license production done to Bharat's defence industry? Zilch!! We are still dependent on them for parts.

Do you think their job is to transfer all their valuable technology and make us self reliant?

 

[sandy 007]

Wow, for a long time I have been saying the Super Sukhoi upgrade should consider an AL-51 derivative instead of the AL-31. Just look at the combo of an AL-51 derivative, the Virupaksha GaN-based AESA radar, plus the GANDIV BVR missile; it will make the Super Sukhoi dominate the sky. If Russian entry is allowed, that means there are some shortcomings from the West as far as sharing of tech is concerned.

Third, if it is accepted Russian Engine, then all drama/arm-twisting from the US for the GE-404 will end. Further, any delay in the fighter jet project. Only the question is the dimension & weight issue. Finally, chances of the Su-57 winning MRFA are bright. I have been commenting for the last few months, the Su-57 is a dark horse.

India needs to change tactics. It should go with the second option on HLFT, AMCA, and Tejas MK2 engines. Also, all these projects are on the drawing board, and we have done lots of R&D on this platform with the US engine and team. HAL must move ahead with the Russian engine on all these fighter aircraft programs. This will give us confidence if Americans stop the deal or hold the engine.

 

[Sandeep]

Even if India has no intention of buying any of their Russian engines then allowing them to participate in the AMCA engine competition makes good political and diplomatic sense.

This will also increase the competitiveness and competition among the companies which will reduce the expenses and costs a lot more than usual if Russia didn’t enter the competition. Russian engines will be much cheaper than any western French, Canadian, USA or UK engines but its technology, efficiency, effectiveness, quality, reliability, maintenance and lifespan will vary a lot.

India now needs to quickly make a deal so that we can 100% indigenously design, develop and manufacture a proper 5th generation engine. Developing it will be very expensive regardless of whoever wins the contract and it will take around 6-8 years to develop and then production will begin.

 

[Andy]

While we wait for Kaveri to mature, we cannot afford USA snail speed. Better to get whatever is available, even if efficiency and reliability is lesser. This is a final wake up call for GE to get their house in order, or say Goodbye to India forever.

 

[Andy]

We can engage Russia to have an alternative for the F404 engine, based on Kaveri and RD-93, with increased thrust and better life expectancy, which could be used in the Tejas Mk1 MLU and HLFT.

Some DRDO employee said that the 414 derivative we will make will fit the Mk1A too and can replace the 404.

 

[Rajesh]

If they are offering this engine in terms similar to what we put for AMCA's engine with the West, then it should be considered at least for the Su-30 and Super Sukhoi. Instead of waiting for the American engine and the sword hanging over our heads with the American engine and blackmail tactics, at least we can use this engine for the Mk2 if we just increase the MTO similarly to the J-10. Having an engine will give us great leverage bargaining for a true 6th-gen engine. If the Russians are offering an engine with ToT & IP, then we must go for the AL-51 with the stealth nozzle set up, even if we have to shed a few more rubles in the process; it would be good.

 

[Surfer]

We can engage Russia to have an alternative for the F404 engine, based on Kaveri and RD-93, with increased thrust and better life expectancy, which could be used in the Tejas Mk1 MLU and HLFT.

We should ask the Russians to make a hybrid engine based on the Tumansky R-25-300, that's in the MiG-21, for the Mk1 and Mk2. This engine currently has almost the same thrust as the SNECMA M-88.

 

[P2S2]

If they are offering this engine in terms similar to what we put for AMCA's engine with the West, then it should be considered at least for the Su-30 and Super Sukhoi. Instead of waiting for the American engine and the sword hanging over our heads with the American engine and blackmail tactics, at least we can use this engine for the Mk2 if we just increase the MTO similarly to the J-10. Having an engine will give us great leverage bargaining for a true 6th-gen engine. If the Russians are offering an engine with ToT & IP, then we must go for the AL-51 with the stealth nozzle set up, even if we have to shed a few more rubles in the process; it would be good.

Another thing is we ourselves have to be proactive and offer something too, not wait for others to work out what will please us. Go out and HUNT for technology required by India. Go out and OFFER to buy, assist or whatever to move, upgrade, help with developments like AN225 etc. The Defence Minister talks about space expansion. We will need to move quickly to build planes, big planes to fly to the stratosphere and launch space fighter planes riding piggy back on them. Make up your minds and move up the capabilities chain.

 

[Surfer]

Some DRDO employee said that the 414 derivative we will make will fit the Mk1A too and can replace the 404.

It theoretically could, as it is the same dimension, but the intake requirements are different.

 

[P2S2]

We should ask the Russians to make a hybrid engine based on the Tumansky R-25-300, that's in the MiG-21, for the Mk1 and Mk2. This engine currently has almost the same thrust as the SNECMA M-88.

A proactive idea

 

[Madhu Joshi]

Entry of a new player who may be willing to undertake a ToT agreement will surely wake up the likes of GE Aerospace, seeing the contract going to Russia.
A Masterstroke by MoD ! Congrats.

 

[P2S2]

Do you think their job is to transfer all their valuable technology and make us self reliant?

We shouldn't think we have any idea what others will or won't do, that is plain silly. We know what we want, go and GET it.

 

[P2S2]

Wow, for a long time I have been saying the Super Sukhoi upgrade should consider an AL-51 derivative instead of the AL-31. Just look at the combo of an AL-51 derivative, the Virupaksha GaN-based AESA radar, plus the GANDIV BVR missile; it will make the Super Sukhoi dominate the sky. If Russian entry is allowed, that means there are some shortcomings from the West as far as sharing of tech is concerned.

Third, if it is accepted Russian Engine, then all drama/arm-twisting from the US for the GE-404 will end. Further, any delay in the fighter jet project. Only the question is the dimension & weight issue. Finally, chances of the Su-57 winning MRFA are bright. I have been commenting for the last few months, the Su-57 is a dark horse.

Mark my word, wake-up call for Dassault, it will lose all MRFA, engine partner for 110 kN race & consultant for the AMCA project too. A common engine for the Super Sukhoi upgrade & AMCA (142 kN Thrust) with economies of scale will be more beneficial than having two different category engines. From the eco-system to sourcing components and spares indigenously. Both being twin-engine fighter jets & with enhanced thrust, both fighter jets will be agile in the air. It can be integrated with dual, and triple pylons to carry more BVR/WVR missiles with an increase in thrust, plus hypersonic heavy missiles too.

The AIF needs planes urgently. France or SAAB have to come to the table and show what they can build in India quickly we should sign if it is reasonable and they can have their foot in the door while we go all out with Desi Sixth gen technology based on our traditional Russian mentality. When we reach Seventh generation stuff then we will be equal to the others or slightly ahead.

 

[DNA57]

Great decision by GOI. After GE404 fiasco, GOI realised that Bharat can't bank on single engine supplier. Modiji should call Dolandji and request delivery of GE404 engines asap. GE414 engine deal hasn't been signed as well. Situation looks bleak for IAF.

US will not supply GE404 or GE414 jet engines anytime soon and will give all excuses until India succumbs to internal and external pressure and is forced to buy a US jet off the shelf, along with as much US defence products as possible. The GOI must resist this and must not fall into the trap.

 

[P2S2]

Entry of a new player who may be willing to undertake a ToT agreement will surely wake up the likes of GE Aerospace, seeing the contract going to Russia.
A Masterstroke by MoD ! Congrats.

Thanks partner. We will assist make the world at peace. Please stop shedding blood in Ukraine, we will assist them build AN225 types of flying machines more economical.

 

[Dredd]

We should ask the Russians to make a hybrid engine based on the Tumansky R-25-300, that's in the MiG-21, for the Mk1 and Mk2. This engine currently has almost the same thrust as the SNECMA M-88.

1950s Engine?

 

[P2S2]

Russia is broke and desperate. Give them $2b or whatever the money is, in gold or cash if they want it. Buy the engine technology. Send 1000 of the best minds in India to learn every aspects of the engine and the technology to master all aspects of the technology. It's not trivial. We are talking about 75 years of Russian knowhow. Probably talking about $50b in today's dollars. India will never get there, too much graft, spies, bureaucracy and the damm babus. Thousand and thousands of Russians died to get where they are today. In the cold war it was life and death. For many, it was the gulag or firing squad. We started 50 years too late, money can let us catch up. India has to stop thinking they have made it when India is still a developing country. The next 20 years are going to be ugly, allies are not allies. Old empires don't go down without a fight. The fight is just starting. Look how the US is treating its best allies.

Yes. Let's go out proactively and earn more money. Modi should fly to Moscow and stop the war. The Antonov used to be built in Ukraine. India should send peace keepers and slowly make Ukraine withdraw from Kursk.

 

[Dredd]

Some DRDO employee said that the 414 derivative we will make will fit the Mk1A too and can replace the 404.

Sounds like plug and play, but in reality, it will require changes in air intakes.

 

[Surfer]

1950s Engine?

The engine in Bison is the same age as the SNECMA M-88, and the tech [is] not 1950, [but rather] 1970-1980.

 

[P2S2]

Sounds like plug and play, but in reality, it will require changes in air intakes.

That ain't rocket science. Get AI to assist.

 

[AK S]

How can an already existing jet engine be "too large" for something that's still on the drawing boards? Not even a prototype exists yet. There are no set dimensions for AMCA that have been locked and finalized.... It can't be because it's under development. Dimensions can always be altered considering the engine they chose to go with, and always change from concept to prototype (3-4 variations considering the test results) and production-ready airframe.

AMCA CDR completed long time back. Dimensions are frozen. Metal cutting is in progress.

BTW, changing engine is a serious business and it's not just changing the dimension of the engine bay. It affects air-intake and centre of gravity and everything needs to be redesigned. It will be almost like a new design costing at least couple of years.

 

[AK S]

Knowing everything, the GOI has not even considered supporting a JV of DPSUs with the private sector and academia. This is very backward thinking by the "Make in India" government.

Not investing in indigenous jet engines is the single biggest mistake in our military aviation history. No one is going to give us the tech, no matter who says what. Besides, we'll be subjected to the push and pull of that government's geopolitics and exploitative economics.

 

[AK S]

Yup, that is why we are still importing. What good has Russian tech transfer or license production done to Bharat's defence industry? Zilch!! We are still dependent on them for parts.

It's not correct. Let us not belittle one of our most valued partners. True, Russian tech in certain areas, like jet engines and electronics, is inferior. But they have kept their part of the bargain. We have been maintaining Russian systems for years, despite Russia being at war with NATO-backed Ukraine. In fact, in many cases, we even upgraded them as well. These efforts have been very cost-effective. Our missiles (e.g., Brahmos) and SSBN (and maybe SSN) have a strong presence of Russian tech. The list of Russian tech is really long.

 

[coke]

If this engine is already developed, what will our engineers learn from this, as they were supposed to from co-development with Safran or RR? Or is it not developed yet? Again, if it is not developed yet, then again DRDO will take a year in exchanging or negotiating terms like share of co-production, IPR, and ToT.

 

[Shiva]

Always, there exist optimizations.

First, replace the engine and, with minimal modifications, let it function and test it, and hand it over to the IAF to use. There is a depletion of resources. There will be many more orders for next versions. So, first focus on handing over some products to the IAF after testing with minimal changes.

Otherwise, these discussions will lead to decades of delay. It seems these R&D people are habituated too much to optimization, ignoring delays and giving scope to imports.