Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[NSR]

Where does the numbers 46/73 kN comes from?
Kaveri failed in high altitude test flights on Wet thrust?
Not believable at all.

If it is really true, then India can use to develop its twin engined fighters for IAF and IN because the total thrust would be around 146kN gross. Good enough power for a twin engined fighter.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

We will be requirring over a 1000 GE404 engines in all for all the tejas mk1 and mk 1a jets. And we have to import all of them.

The only reason that we didnt sign local production deal for GF404 is because DRDO and MoD were confident of developing kaveri to the point that it could replace GE404 in the tejas. Thus this kaveri 2.0 project is very crucial because we require a large number of them and if we dont get it ready, we have no other choice but to keep buying and importing GE404 for decades to come.

 

[Ranjeet Singh]

GTRE+Safran+ Godrej should make 90-95 KN engine for Tejas-1A and 98-110 KN engine for Tejas-AF-MK-II ! Our Tejas fighters must attain Mac 2.25 speed !

 

[Sentoki]

Reading between the lines of this article, it seems like GTRE has plans to redesign the hot section with single crystal blades instead of Directionally solidified blades used on the dry Kaveri. Possibly Blisks for weight reduction as well as improved cooling of the blades with higher TET by using laser drilling etc.

Sounds like simulations have been completed to validate what sort of thrust improvement can be anticipated. If these are consistent with other engine development cycles used around the world, then the govt should approve the $1bn funding now to fast track development parallely with testing of the Kaveri dry engine version.

It sounds like the Kaveri version 1 has gone as far as it can without additional funding.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Also, include IISc, midhani, Bharat Forge and PTC for development of jet engines. PTC has recently developed tech for single crystal blades. ~50 KN Kaveri is stuck. We should not stop at that. Let team A develop 30 KN Engine and team B develop ~70 KN engine. Spending 500 million dollars a year on jet engine R&D is not much for India. Time to plan big and build a ecosystem for civilian and military engines. Educate auditors that this is a bleeding edge tech. They should not expect success in first go. We will get a meaningful JV transfer the tech only when we are very near in developing our own.

 

[Paul]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

 

[ramdas]

Gather talented experts from around the globe to conquer challenging crises. Every country does

 

[wallisk]

wow thats very Good development advantage over US Engine which loose 10% Thrust in Indian hot condition , which one person from forum was not accepting the fact . if developed it not nly for Tejas MK1A & MK2 But may b for TEDBF tooooo.

GE-F404 older engine max. thrusts is only 75KN now dude... Now, the newer IN20 version is giving out closer to 80KN max. wet thrusts it seems so..

 

[wallisk]

see video Kaveri 2.0

 

[Vijay Anand]

Gather talented experts from around the globe to conquer challenging crises. Every country does

But we want everything at a discount, and a lot of "EDUCATED" lawmakers don't see long term benefits.

Few of the western nations were clever to take the expert and bright minds during and after world war2, and they're miles ahead in defense. Acquiring good talent is also such a skill. Take example of Marut aircraft developed by a scientist who migrated from Germany (I believe), had we maintained and continued further with the ecosystem. We wouldn't be sitting on MRFA for decades.

The utter negligence and ignorance of lawmakers is what stopping Bharat from being a super power.

 

[Deepak Hegde]

Kaveri at the current stage has not been proved good for any purpose, neither for manned aircraft nor for UAV's. What is the basis for asking for any further funding without demonstrating any success of any kind ??

 

[Kailash]

Stop the double standards - when shiny brochures from GE comes, IAF never asks for "flat-rated" performance across the length and breadth of this great country. At the very least, after buying a F-404 or F-414, you should declare the right thrust values "under Indian conditions" of say Mumbai (sea level) vs Rajasthan (desert) vs Leh (high and dry) vs Kashmiri winters.

If the right thrust figures are out, Kaveri wont look so bad, GE might still lead, but not by as big a margin as their "brochure" claims. In a way accepting flat rating requirement screwed up the Kaveri engine effort. The second biggest issue being not enough funds, and a weak will to provide cash and approvals use to use Mig29s or Su-30mki or dedicated engine flying test beds. Change of requirements for Tejas to be able to carry wing tip A2A missiles and subsequent strengthening/weight gain was the final nail on the coffin for Kaveri.

One thing is certain, there is no way to go but forward. Kaveri has to be made in large numbers, used in aircrafts, ships, trains anywhere possible.

 

[Akshat]

IAF must work around the Kaveri eco system for the future

No thanks. We can’t sacrifice our soldiers just to satisfy DRDO’s ego.

 

[Akshat]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

 

[Akshat]

Stop the double standards - when shiny brochures from GE comes, IAF never asks for "flat-rated" performance across the length and breadth of this great country. At the very least, after buying a F-404 or F-414, you should declare the right thrust values "under Indian conditions" of say Mumbai (sea level) vs Rajasthan (desert) vs Leh (high and dry) vs Kashmiri winters.

If the right thrust figures are out, Kaveri wont look so bad, GE might still lead, but not by as big a margin as their "brochure" claims. In a way accepting flat rating requirement screwed up the Kaveri engine effort. The second biggest issue being not enough funds, and a weak will to provide cash and approvals use to use Mig29s or Su-30mki or dedicated engine flying test beds. Change of requirements for Tejas to be able to carry wing tip A2A missiles and subsequent strengthening/weight gain was the final nail on the coffin for Kaveri.

One thing is certain, there is no way to go but forward. Kaveri has to be made in large numbers, used in aircrafts, ships, trains anywhere possible.

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

 

[Anurag]

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

When did it happen?? Can you please clarify it??

 

[Anurag]

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

Blank check what a joke!!
We never have flying test bed even to certify engine we don't have anyone at the first place we don't have the ecosystem to build a fighter jet engine and amount you are talking about if they make a working prototype of a fighter jet engine in this amount then they have done a tremendous job!!

 

[Ramaka Sakala]

RD33MK used in Mig29UPG has better performance numbers than kaveri. RD33 was always available in the last 30 years. India went for Kaveri saying, life cycle of own engine will be better than Russian engines. But we do not hear about it. So what is really achieved apart from wasting 30 years of valuable time?

If engines were available now for TejasMk1A, at least it would have achieved the goal. But engines could be made available after 10 years...well, we will see then.

same mistake for Kaveri2.0. AL31FP used in SU30MKI has a better thrust and is a available. There is no new risk, as engines are used in large number of SU30MKI.

Till Kaveri fulfills the need of MK1A, Kaveri2.0 should not be invested into. Instead start a parallel technology demonstrator to build AMCA (non stealth) with available AL31FP. We could see a working fighter plane in 5 years.

 

[The Presence]

RD33MK used in Mig29UPG has better performance numbers than kaveri. RD33 was always available in the last 30 years. India went for Kaveri saying, life cycle of own engine will be better than Russian engines. But we do not hear about it. So what is really achieved apart from wasting 30 years of valuable time?

If engines were available now for TejasMk1A, at least it would have achieved the goal. But engines could be made available after 10 years...well, we will see then.

same mistake for Kaveri2.0. AL31FP used in SU30MKI has a better thrust and is a available. There is no new risk, as engines are used in large number of SU30MKI.

Till Kaveri fulfills the need of MK1A, Kaveri2.0 should not be invested into. Instead start a parallel technology demonstrator to build AMCA (non stealth) with available AL31FP. We could see a working fighter plane in 5 years.

Out of those 30 years, how many were utilised in active development ?

The Government delinked the Kaveri far ago in 2008 and nothing happened for nearly a decade.

This is peak example of Myopic Vision.

 

[Kailash]

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

Blew the FTB?? Do you mean FTB/prototype exploded/destroyed?
Nothing in this reply is factual and the lesser I respond, the more civil this will be. You could believe wholeheartedly what you like 🙂