Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[Sudha]

U have no other option than to make your own engine . Steal , borrow or do whatever but make it work. U can't trust on French , British or anyone for that matter .

Best is to steal, for foreign OEM will not give the tech & GTRE unable to do it. Begging we tried to no avail. In the advancement of "kn"s private sector has played a pivotal role to which DRDO nor GTRE will ever mention. After giving the private sector to manufacture the engine all these advancements are being trumpeted now.

 

[Sudha]

Not close to 1Bln, they wanted $1.5Bln for using their core and then royalties on top of that, making a robust indegenous core is the only solution.

Instead of blaming private sector you have convince the GOI to fund R&D the private sector (maybe as a loan) even DPSUs & government labs are getting funding from government for R&D. Why not give a level playing field?

 

[UKumar]

Have you checked per hour flying cost of Tejas vs F-16 vs Gripen?
There is life cycle cost to air craft. Tejas are increasingly becoming easy to maintain. Mk1A is better maintainable compared to mk 1. And Mk-2 will improve upon from mk1A.

Also, USD spent are within and with India except engine. Which is being worked !! For which you are commenting.

Also initially every aircraft while developing it will be costlier, later when it we increase the total no`s of aircraft purchase the cost will start to come down also still we are using some of the main part imported (like engine, ejection seat etc) once we start manufacturing it the cost will be less and we will have our own Eco systems (both Pvt and govt players) there will be further reduction in prices

 

[UKumar]

It is indeed. It is comparable fighters of far heavier classes. The cost paid for Mk1a is 78 million usd. For the home country!!!

For comparison, Su30 mki (2019) being manufactured by HAL for 68 million USD. F18 costs about 65 million barebones. Even your favorite Rafale was reported to cost about 69 million USD to the French Senate (2014). And the prices since 2014 have decreased for Rafale packages, if anything. So yeah, LCA is one of the costliest planes around,

Pl; go to this link to know the cost of each aircraft, also pl; note Russia/ France has there own Eco system they do not have to buy critical products like engine/ ejection seat etc as they are manufactured by the same country also when the total no: of Aircraft increases the price too will come down

Top 10 most expensive fighter jets in 2024

Explore the top 10 list featuring high-tech aircraft with the highest price tags in today's aviation market. Discover the most expensive fighter jets of 2024.

www.aerotime.aero

 

[Utopian]

Well if it’s a fact then it’s a fact. Tejas is about 55% indigenous. Rest is going out of the country. In MRFA we are asking for 50% local content. Even for Rafale we had 50% offsets. So the amount of money kept in India and sent outside will be comparable.

And as for cost, Tejas is indeed one of the costliest planes around. And I am comparing with planes of far superior quality and capabilities.

As for per hour costs, are there any reliable sources which confirm this?

Being a DRDO apologist doesn’t help anyone. We should call a spade a spade and blame them for holding back our progress.

Hey firstly you need to understand, the costs are not only for machine, but for technologies as well. Most of the money HAL is charging is somehow rerouting in developing better technology.
today we have AESA radar
composite technology, know how of designing and building quality jets, many of these technologies have multiple applications, such as metallurgy of a ship is also useful for developing quality turbines.

So remember when you develop, you actually narrow the technology gap with west. It's complex, but we all need to understand and stay patient

 

[Jaydeep Gupta]

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is optimistic that the Dry Kaveri engine's successful demonstration on the Tejas Mk1 Trainer will pave the way for the development of the advanced Kaveri 2.0 engine. This development is not only crucial for securing much-needed funding but also for reducing India's dependency on foreign engines for its fighter jets.

The current Dry Kaveri engine, while impressive with its 46kN dry thrust and 73kN wet thrust, falls short of the power required for the Tejas Mk1A and MkII. However, its successful deployment on the Tejas Mk1 Trainer will demonstrate GTRE's capabilities and strengthen the case for additional investment.

GTRE, buoyed by a positive feasibility study conducted with French aerospace firm Safran, plans to seek nearly $1 billion in fresh investment for the Kaveri 2.0 engine. The upgraded engine is projected to deliver 55-58kN dry thrust and 90kN wet thrust, making it suitable to power both the Tejas Mk1A and MkII.

A key advantage of the Kaveri engines, including the future Kaveri 2.0, is their flat-rated design. This means they maintain consistent performance regardless of variations in ambient temperature and forward speed, a critical factor in India's hot and humid climate where traditional engines can lose significant power.

GTRE officials believe that the Kaveri 2.0's high reliability and efficiency in Indian conditions could make it a competitive alternative to foreign engines. However, the development timeline for the Kaveri 2.0 might not align with the immediate needs of the Tejas Mk1A and MkII programs.

While the Kaveri 2.0 may not be an immediate solution, its development signifies a significant step towards India's self-reliance in aerospace technology. If successful, it could reduce India's reliance on foreign engines and offer a cost-effective, high-performance solution for future fighter jet programs.

The road ahead is challenging, but the potential rewards are significant. The Kaveri 2.0, if realized, could be a game-changer for India's aerospace industry.

 

[sanket]

wow thats very Good development advantage over US Engine which loose 10% Thrust in Indian hot condition , which one person from forum was not accepting the fact . if developed it not nly for Tejas MK1A & MK2 But may b for TEDBF tooooo.

 

[bonito]

GTRE should ingrain this into their brains "Kaveri is only slated for UCAV", not Tejas. Start from scratch utilize the KM and all the ecosystem to redesign and recreate a new engine.

 

[Rishav Raj]

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

I think ur bot, of not it's better to read test result

 

[Pramkumar]

IAF must work around the Kaveri eco system for the future

 

[NSR]

Where does the numbers 46/73 kN comes from?
Kaveri failed in high altitude test flights on Wet thrust?
Not believable at all.

If it is really true, then India can use to develop its twin engined fighters for IAF and IN because the total thrust would be around 146kN gross. Good enough power for a twin engined fighter.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

We will be requirring over a 1000 GE404 engines in all for all the tejas mk1 and mk 1a jets. And we have to import all of them.

The only reason that we didnt sign local production deal for GF404 is because DRDO and MoD were confident of developing kaveri to the point that it could replace GE404 in the tejas. Thus this kaveri 2.0 project is very crucial because we require a large number of them and if we dont get it ready, we have no other choice but to keep buying and importing GE404 for decades to come.

 

[Ranjeet Singh]

GTRE+Safran+ Godrej should make 90-95 KN engine for Tejas-1A and 98-110 KN engine for Tejas-AF-MK-II ! Our Tejas fighters must attain Mac 2.25 speed !

 

[Sentoki]

Reading between the lines of this article, it seems like GTRE has plans to redesign the hot section with single crystal blades instead of Directionally solidified blades used on the dry Kaveri. Possibly Blisks for weight reduction as well as improved cooling of the blades with higher TET by using laser drilling etc.

Sounds like simulations have been completed to validate what sort of thrust improvement can be anticipated. If these are consistent with other engine development cycles used around the world, then the govt should approve the $1bn funding now to fast track development parallely with testing of the Kaveri dry engine version.

It sounds like the Kaveri version 1 has gone as far as it can without additional funding.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Also, include IISc, midhani, Bharat Forge and PTC for development of jet engines. PTC has recently developed tech for single crystal blades. ~50 KN Kaveri is stuck. We should not stop at that. Let team A develop 30 KN Engine and team B develop ~70 KN engine. Spending 500 million dollars a year on jet engine R&D is not much for India. Time to plan big and build a ecosystem for civilian and military engines. Educate auditors that this is a bleeding edge tech. They should not expect success in first go. We will get a meaningful JV transfer the tech only when we are very near in developing our own.

 

[Paul]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

 

[ramdas]

Gather talented experts from around the globe to conquer challenging crises. Every country does

 

[wallisk]

wow thats very Good development advantage over US Engine which loose 10% Thrust in Indian hot condition , which one person from forum was not accepting the fact . if developed it not nly for Tejas MK1A & MK2 But may b for TEDBF tooooo.

GE-F404 older engine max. thrusts is only 75KN now dude... Now, the newer IN20 version is giving out closer to 80KN max. wet thrusts it seems so..

 

[wallisk]

see video Kaveri 2.0

 

[Vijay Anand]

Gather talented experts from around the globe to conquer challenging crises. Every country does

But we want everything at a discount, and a lot of "EDUCATED" lawmakers don't see long term benefits.

Few of the western nations were clever to take the expert and bright minds during and after world war2, and they're miles ahead in defense. Acquiring good talent is also such a skill. Take example of Marut aircraft developed by a scientist who migrated from Germany (I believe), had we maintained and continued further with the ecosystem. We wouldn't be sitting on MRFA for decades.

The utter negligence and ignorance of lawmakers is what stopping Bharat from being a super power.

 

[Deepak Hegde]

Kaveri at the current stage has not been proved good for any purpose, neither for manned aircraft nor for UAV's. What is the basis for asking for any further funding without demonstrating any success of any kind ??

 

[Kailash]

Stop the double standards - when shiny brochures from GE comes, IAF never asks for "flat-rated" performance across the length and breadth of this great country. At the very least, after buying a F-404 or F-414, you should declare the right thrust values "under Indian conditions" of say Mumbai (sea level) vs Rajasthan (desert) vs Leh (high and dry) vs Kashmiri winters.

If the right thrust figures are out, Kaveri wont look so bad, GE might still lead, but not by as big a margin as their "brochure" claims. In a way accepting flat rating requirement screwed up the Kaveri engine effort. The second biggest issue being not enough funds, and a weak will to provide cash and approvals use to use Mig29s or Su-30mki or dedicated engine flying test beds. Change of requirements for Tejas to be able to carry wing tip A2A missiles and subsequent strengthening/weight gain was the final nail on the coffin for Kaveri.

One thing is certain, there is no way to go but forward. Kaveri has to be made in large numbers, used in aircrafts, ships, trains anywhere possible.

 

[Akshat]

IAF must work around the Kaveri eco system for the future

No thanks. We can’t sacrifice our soldiers just to satisfy DRDO’s ego.

 

[Akshat]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

 

[Akshat]

Stop the double standards - when shiny brochures from GE comes, IAF never asks for "flat-rated" performance across the length and breadth of this great country. At the very least, after buying a F-404 or F-414, you should declare the right thrust values "under Indian conditions" of say Mumbai (sea level) vs Rajasthan (desert) vs Leh (high and dry) vs Kashmiri winters.

If the right thrust figures are out, Kaveri wont look so bad, GE might still lead, but not by as big a margin as their "brochure" claims. In a way accepting flat rating requirement screwed up the Kaveri engine effort. The second biggest issue being not enough funds, and a weak will to provide cash and approvals use to use Mig29s or Su-30mki or dedicated engine flying test beds. Change of requirements for Tejas to be able to carry wing tip A2A missiles and subsequent strengthening/weight gain was the final nail on the coffin for Kaveri.

One thing is certain, there is no way to go but forward. Kaveri has to be made in large numbers, used in aircrafts, ships, trains anywhere possible.

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.