Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine Engine is as much alive as the TAPAS drone. Though officially still under development both, have been deprioritized by government. That's almost as good as killing the project.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

Nope they cant. Though jet engines and gas turbines are functionally similar, there is a huge difference in its pressure rating. The compressor spool on a jet engine has much higher tolerances while gas turbine does not need to take such pressure.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I know that work is going on by HAL, alomg with DRDO for a marine gas turbine engine, it must be related to kaveri, and uses the teachings of it.

As for the failure of kaveri for marine engine usage, it is u derstandable that it failed after all you can put an engine designed for fighter jets in a ship and expect it to perform great. It was more for research in my opinion.

Work is indeed going on, but its bereft of Kaveri influence and is a clean sheet attempt. Till the time Kaveri demonstrates a capability to sufficiently deliver flat rated performance across its entire operation envelop, its not going to go any where near a manned platform. Neither a manned fighter nor a manned naval vessel.

 

[desigandu]

why not 85-90 with afterburners in Kaveri-2s, so we can use them for Tejas Mk1 and 1A engine replacements...

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Nope they cant. Though jet engines and gas turbines are functionally similar, there is a huge difference in its pressure rating. The compressor spool on a jet engine has much higher tolerances while gas turbine does not need to take such pressure.

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

Except they did not offer it as an experiment. They were seriously pitching for the conversion of Kaveri for marine engine applications to salvage the project. However, it failed even at sea level after persistently Navy which mind u is fairly amicable to trying out indigenous systems also lost interest as it just failed to comply with performance specifications.

I distinctly remember back then also there was a flurry of news items every now and then on the possibility of conversion of Kaveri for marine gas turbine applications. They kept creating a PR promotion campaign, and when it suddenly flunked it all returned to radio silence, hoping everybody would forget it and it can be buried without raising uncomfortable questions.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I have to agree with you here. You have consistently on multiple occassions made objective and pragmatic assertions, without the usual delusions of grandeur which is so rampant on this site. Brutal honesty and unflinching pragmatism I find is alien to most of my fellow citizens even more so amongst our administrative/policy making class.

This site has suddenly turned into a fanboy site, that just keeps chattering. What they forget is that problem-solving starts with identifying that you have a problem in the first place. Several people on this forum have a problem of "No Problem" and think everything is fine and hunky dory just because we are developing.

I believe analyze any situation we need to dispassionately look at the issue, honestly in the most pragmatic manner, without pushing glaring issues under the carpet. Just because it makes us uncomfortable, we can't close our eyes and hope issues will vanish. Till structural issues with DRDO/GTRE functioning are sorted, I don't foresee any major change in its performance unfortunately. Mind u even I want India to build its indigenous defense industry, but the way DRDO/GTRE/HAL functions, that wont happen any time soon.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Except they did not offer it as an experiment. They were seriously pitching for the conversion of Kaveri for marine engine applications to salvage the project. However, it failed even at sea level after persistently Navy which mind u is fairly amicable to trying out indigenous systems also lost interest as it just failed to comply with performance specifications.

I distinctly remember back then also there was a flurry of news items every now and then on the possibility of conversion of Kaveri for marine gas turbine applications. They kept creating a PR promotion campaign, and when it suddenly flunked it all returned to radio silence, hoping everybody would forget it and it can be buried without raising uncomfortable questions.

You are arguing semantics. I am sure HAL, DRDO, Navy, Air force DoD knew that it was research experiment. Media generally hypes up these things and we as public get riled up over it.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

They did notboffer it authentic reason I am blaming Kaveri and by extension GTRE is because, they ought to have known that you don't just take jet engine and deploy otbas a gas turbine engine. There are some modifications required to compressor spool and ignition chamber among other things. Without doing homework, without solving structural issues, they took a half baked engine with an equally half baked business proposal which by the way was not an Experiment.

 

[RonitBishtVerified member]

The Kaveri Debate: Upgrade or Start From Scratch?​

India's efforts to develop cutting-edge engines for its fighter jets face a strategic crossroads. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) plans to create the Kaveri 2.0 – a powerful engine intended for the Tejas Mk1A fighter. On the surface, this seems like a sound upgrade from the Tejas' current American-made engines. Yet, the Kaveri 2.0's development sparks debate when considered alongside a more ambitious project on the horizon.

India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a next-generation fighter, demands an engine far more powerful than the Kaveri 2.0 can offer. The AMCA program may involve international collaboration, potentially leading to an engine capable of an impressive 130kN thrust – power that could pave the way for India's potential 6th-generation fighter projects.

This is where the Kaveri 2.0's role becomes uncertain. Experts suggest that the AMCA engine, if designed for adaptability, could be "detuned" to a lower thrust output suitable for the Tejas Mk1A when it undergoes a major upgrade decades from now. This strategy would streamline costs and logistics, but it also means that the Kaveri 2.0 itself may take a decade and considerable investment to develop, only to potentially be outclassed by the adapted AMCA engine.

So, why push for the Kaveri 2.0? National pride and security play a role – developing indigenous engines reduces reliance on foreign suppliers. Additionally, the Kaveri 2.0 could act as a learning experience for Indian engineers, laying foundations for the AMCA engine. A successful Kaveri 2.0 might even appeal to other countries operating similar jets.

The choice remains with the GTRE. Will they prioritize the Kaveri 2.0 or focus on building a flexible AMCA engine with enough potential for future adaptation? Defense analysts believe India would be better served by refining the AMCA engine and exploring its potential for multiple applications. They argue that a separate Kaveri 2.0 program is unnecessary as the AMCA engine will ultimately be superior.

Some envision a future where India develops AMCA engine variants versatile enough for unmanned combat vehicles, transport aircraft, and even commercial planes.

 

[Hari Sud]

Very confusing and stupid third rate info gathered from ‘informed sources’.

 

[sanket]

Kaveri -2 Should b developed, it will Build confidence. depending on only one Engine is not good .

 

[abhinav srivastava]

A tie up will always be prone to negative surprises. Rather than spending on hope that a friendly country will provide us bleeding edge tech for few billion dollars. Let us put 25% of those billion dollars in indigenous programs. Also pursue foreign collaboration let us see how far it takes us. A derated AMCA engine may turn out to be heavy for Tejas Mk1A.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

1. We should go for Kaveri 2 as it would give us invaluable experience in engine development. It would fully atmanirbhar effort and the engine would be useful even otherwise for advanced UAV applications in future, apart from exports
2. AMCA engine will be another stream of development with a foreign collaborator and that must also go ahead.
3. As regards funding, India should and can afford such twin track if it wishes to be one of the top 3 powers in the world.

 

[Sanatani Yodha]

People must always remember that we have Kaveri engine program in advanced stage that why US is giving us F404 and F414 engines… just to kill desi effort… ask them to sell us F35 engine, they will refuse and once we get near making a desi engine similar to that, they will happily offer us…. Its a standard practices by superpowers so that no one else could come close to them……
Just see, thay r offering F16 (as we have desi Tejas), offering Striker (as we have Whap), conventional subs, etc basically alternative to all desi programs….
So we should follow Chinese model and should develop engines for all class of fighters….

 

[Akshat]

A tie up will always be prone to negative surprises. Rather than spending on hope that a friendly country will provide us bleeding edge tech for few billion dollars. Let us put 25% of those billion dollars in indigenous programs. Also pursue foreign collaboration let us see how far it takes us. A derated AMCA engine may turn out to be heavy for Tejas Mk1A.

But the government gave a blank check to GTRE and they couldn’t do anything. So we need alternatives.

 

[Akshat]

People must always remember that we have Kaveri engine program in advanced stage that why US is giving us F404 and F414 engines… just to kill desi effort… ask them to sell us F35 engine, they will refuse and once we get near making a desi engine similar to that, they will happily offer us…. Its a standard practices by superpowers so that no one else could come close to them……
Just see, thay r offering F16 (as we have desi Tejas), offering Striker (as we have Whap), conventional subs, etc basically alternative to all desi programs….
So we should follow Chinese model and should develop engines for all class of fighters….

They have been offering LCA and F18 since 2006. F35 since 2019. Patriot since 2017. Kaveri is a super failure. It’s not gonna work as long as it’s with GTRE.

 

[Akshat]

1. We should go for Kaveri 2 as it would give us invaluable experience in engine development. It would fully atmanirbhar effort and the engine would be useful even otherwise for advanced UAV applications in future, apart from exports
2. AMCA engine will be another stream of development with a foreign collaborator and that must also go ahead.
3. As regards funding, India should and can afford such twin track if it wishes to be one of the top 3 powers in the world.

Agreed that we should go for an indigenous engine. But Kaveri is long gone. As they say, don’t throw good money after bad. Move on from GTRE and find alternatives.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

If, and a very big if, GTRE can muster enough capabilities to substitute GE-F404 with a Kaveri 2.0? What is the problem with that?

Some defence experts are just full of themselves.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Agreed that we should go for an indigenous engine. But Kaveri is long gone. As they say, don’t throw good money after bad. Move on from GTRE and find alternatives.

That is if the bad money was indeed bad to begin with.

Know the story of HF-24 Marut?
The Government of India under Nerwoo, developed cold feet financing 13 Million pounds to Bristol for the development of Bristol BOr.12 Orpheus, for which Bristol Aircraft offered HAL complete IP ownership, and 13 Million was not a princely sum for India even in 1960s. But Nerwoo, as we all know, did not have an appetite for strategic thinking.

Due to Nerwoo's shortsightedness, HAL was forced to make do with non-afterburning Orpheus 703 turbojets which paralyzed the HF-24 for good and also devoid India with an opportunity to kick-start manufacturing and development of a very decent jet engine.

Good money after bad money? Depends.

 

[Aravind Raveendran]

We should put our efforts in making kaveri 2.0 a success. What we can achieve is invaluable.

 

[AK S]

Agreed that we should go for an indigenous engine. But Kaveri is long gone. As they say, don’t throw good money after bad. Move on from GTRE and find alternatives.

Well so much for your blank check propaganda, program itself was stopped in 2007-8. It’s only need for Ghatak UCAV engine that restarted the program. About $300m(in today’s money) was all that Govt. spent and we have a functional engine heading for certification. Ideally this figure should be around 15-20 times more. During Rafale offset, Govt had the offer to invest another $250m to integrate the Snecma hot core. Of course Govt looked the other way.

Forget about testbed, there is no absolutely no infra in country, not even software simulation labs, more so for a software powerhouse with global power ambitions. Even ask for a MiG29 for rudimentary trstbed were denied by IAF who has half of that fleet grounded at anytime.

No other country would run a high-tech program in this fashion.

Imagine the outcome if it was funded and manned properly in those lost 15 years too like national project of priority.

Let’s see what Govt and IAF does now. IAF is still beholden to foreign maal.

 

[Sridhar]

KAVERI 2.0 Reality or a Myth ? I definitely wish to see KAVERI ASAP.

 

[Akshat]

Well so much for your blank check propaganda, program itself was stopped in 2007-8. It’s only need for Ghatak UCAV engine that restarted the program. About $300m(in today’s money) was all that Govt. spent and we have a functional engine heading for certification. Ideally this figure should be around 15-20 times more. During Rafale offset, Govt had the offer to invest another $250m to integrate the Snecma hot core. Of course Govt looked the other way.

Forget about testbed, there is no absolutely no infra in country, not even software simulation labs, more so for a software powerhouse with global power ambitions. Even ask for a MiG29 for rudimentary trstbed were denied by IAF who has half of that fleet grounded at anytime.

No other country would run a high-tech program in this fashion.

Imagine the outcome if it was funded and manned properly in those lost 15 years too like national project of priority.

Let’s see what Govt and IAF does now. IAF is still beholden to foreign maal.

So much for your lies. Additional funding for the program was approved in Parliament in 2011. DRDO gave a status update to Parliament committee in 2016, report of which is available in public domain.

So much for the lies of Socialists.

 

[AK S]

They have been offering LCA and F18 since 2006. F35 since 2019. Patriot since 2017. Kaveri is a super failure. It’s not gonna work as long as it’s with GTRE.

Well it will get certified in Tejas under GTRE and Ghatak will fly with it.

Which private sector company is able and willing ? Well if you have Safran in mind, then it’s a different story.

Unfortunately for you, Kaveri will remain an indigenous effort and that too under GTRE. If govt and IAF invests money, there is a decent chance of success too and in fact it’s already tasting success and foreign interests are so restless and offering their tech too.

 

[Akshat]

That is if the bad money was indeed bad to begin with.

Know the story of HF-24 Marut?
The Government of India under Nerwoo, developed cold feet financing 13 Million pounds to Bristol for the development of Bristol BOr.12 Orpheus, for which Bristol Aircraft offered HAL complete IP ownership, and 13 Million was not a princely sum for India even in 1960s. But Nerwoo, as we all know, did not have an appetite for strategic thinking.

Due to Nerwoo's shortsightedness, HAL was forced to make do with non-afterburning Orpheus 703 turbojets which paralyzed the HF-24 for good and also devoid India with an opportunity to kick-start manufacturing and development of a very decent jet engine.

Good money after bad money? Depends.

Again, not against development of indigenous engine. But anything given to DRDO automatically becomes bad. Nothing comes out of that organization as per the original budget, timeline and specifications. So indeed, very very bad money.

 

[Ut]

This article seems more like western propaganda rathern than a rationale for future engine development.

 

[shivkumar sinha]

But the government gave a blank check to GTRE and they couldn’t do anything. So we need alternatives.

After 2014 , situations have changed in all sectors of development. GTRE has at least 48 KN dry thrust engine in its hand , developing an AF section to increase peak thrust of 73 KN . GoI must vigorously pursue Kaveri -2 in parallel with AMCA engine with foreign collaboration.

 

[AK S]

If, and a very big if, GTRE can muster enough capabilities to substitute GE-F404 with a Kaveri 2.0? What is the problem with that?

Some defence experts are just full of themselves.

That is indeed a big IF. But this IF is more for GoI and IAF and less for which institution leads it. If they want it badly they’ll find required resources and methods to deploy.

 

[Sentoki]

This is not a very sound argument. By this logic, GE404 should have been phased out as soon as 414 was developed and so on.

The reality is that, there are always different engine and thrust requirements based on different classes of fighters from light combat to air superiority fighters.

With regards to using a detuned AMCA engine for Tejas for midlife refit, again several holes in this logic.

1. The initial consideration for Tejas MK2 was a MK1 airframe with GE414 engine to provide additional thrust and payload. This was soon realized as not very viable without airframe changes, hence the current MK2 design.
2. Now imagine what it's going to take to detune a 130KN engine down to 85-90Kn. At the very least you are to be struck with extra weight which will be detrimental for SFC/Range.
3. Even if it were feasible, that's 12-15 years out assuming that the base AMCA engine is developed in 10 years which in itself is questionable with a brand new project. Neither Safran nor Rolls have a 5th Gen engine of this class. So this is an ambitious project for them let alone GTRE.
4. GTRE already has a functional engine with 73KN thrust demonstrated per public records at least 5 years ago. Whose to say they have not made progress since then to increase thrust and reduce weight while resolving flutter in the AB section. I would be surprised if they have not already. I would be surprised if they have not made some progress towards this in last 5 years but have not made it public.
5. Development of an 85-90KN engine will benefit Tejas, HLFT42 and potentially even TEDBF depending on when it gets CCS approval.

In summary, Kaveri 2.0 can be closer to fruition than AMCA engine if the government pulls its finger out and provides adequate resource on this project.