Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

China and US have hot and humid conditions available within their borders. Maybe you should pick up an Atlas

Nothing like India. The type of climate variation that India presents is one of kind. There is just way too much tempreature variation that will definitely put stress on engine far more than what would have been normally possible.This thing was attested by Lockheed themselves after their F16 suffered flameout during MRCA trials.

 

[Varaaah]

If the govt can grab all the illegal begotten wealth of the P. Chidambaran clan, then the development of this engine can be funded easily.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Not quite they were at one point of time seriously pushing for the failed Kaveri jet engine to be reporposed ad a Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine and even Navy was actually considering it. Had it performed well, idea was to salvage the project by repurposing it as marine engine to power small fast attack crafts and missile boats. However, as fate would have it it flunked at delivering flat rated output at even sea level.

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

 

[kumar]

Many people don't understand, how much effort is required in developing jet engine and going about giving gyan that kaveri engine is a failure. They don't even know the present status of kaveri engine and obviously, the comparative difference between kaveri engine and f404 engine technology level.

 

[Pink Panther]

very Good news I was always saying after Fine Tunning kaveri may produce 85 to 90 kN Thrust . so Indian Tech is far better than foreign Tech where it does not loose its Thrust against Foreign Engine which tends to loose 10%.

If this engine is not good enough for Tejas we can fit two of these engines and make ORCA, still 10KN more powerful than SNECMA M-88, for people who talk about thrust to wait ratio, ORCA could also be made much lighter with composites and titanium just like Rafale., we have expertise in both Composites and Titanium.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine Engine is as much alive as the TAPAS drone. Though officially still under development both, have been deprioritized by government. That's almost as good as killing the project.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

Nope they cant. Though jet engines and gas turbines are functionally similar, there is a huge difference in its pressure rating. The compressor spool on a jet engine has much higher tolerances while gas turbine does not need to take such pressure.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I know that work is going on by HAL, alomg with DRDO for a marine gas turbine engine, it must be related to kaveri, and uses the teachings of it.

As for the failure of kaveri for marine engine usage, it is u derstandable that it failed after all you can put an engine designed for fighter jets in a ship and expect it to perform great. It was more for research in my opinion.

Work is indeed going on, but its bereft of Kaveri influence and is a clean sheet attempt. Till the time Kaveri demonstrates a capability to sufficiently deliver flat rated performance across its entire operation envelop, its not going to go any where near a manned platform. Neither a manned fighter nor a manned naval vessel.

 

[desigandu]

why not 85-90 with afterburners in Kaveri-2s, so we can use them for Tejas Mk1 and 1A engine replacements...

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Nope they cant. Though jet engines and gas turbines are functionally similar, there is a huge difference in its pressure rating. The compressor spool on a jet engine has much higher tolerances while gas turbine does not need to take such pressure.

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

Except they did not offer it as an experiment. They were seriously pitching for the conversion of Kaveri for marine engine applications to salvage the project. However, it failed even at sea level after persistently Navy which mind u is fairly amicable to trying out indigenous systems also lost interest as it just failed to comply with performance specifications.

I distinctly remember back then also there was a flurry of news items every now and then on the possibility of conversion of Kaveri for marine gas turbine applications. They kept creating a PR promotion campaign, and when it suddenly flunked it all returned to radio silence, hoping everybody would forget it and it can be buried without raising uncomfortable questions.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I have to agree with you here. You have consistently on multiple occassions made objective and pragmatic assertions, without the usual delusions of grandeur which is so rampant on this site. Brutal honesty and unflinching pragmatism I find is alien to most of my fellow citizens even more so amongst our administrative/policy making class.

This site has suddenly turned into a fanboy site, that just keeps chattering. What they forget is that problem-solving starts with identifying that you have a problem in the first place. Several people on this forum have a problem of "No Problem" and think everything is fine and hunky dory just because we are developing.

I believe analyze any situation we need to dispassionately look at the issue, honestly in the most pragmatic manner, without pushing glaring issues under the carpet. Just because it makes us uncomfortable, we can't close our eyes and hope issues will vanish. Till structural issues with DRDO/GTRE functioning are sorted, I don't foresee any major change in its performance unfortunately. Mind u even I want India to build its indigenous defense industry, but the way DRDO/GTRE/HAL functions, that wont happen any time soon.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Except they did not offer it as an experiment. They were seriously pitching for the conversion of Kaveri for marine engine applications to salvage the project. However, it failed even at sea level after persistently Navy which mind u is fairly amicable to trying out indigenous systems also lost interest as it just failed to comply with performance specifications.

I distinctly remember back then also there was a flurry of news items every now and then on the possibility of conversion of Kaveri for marine gas turbine applications. They kept creating a PR promotion campaign, and when it suddenly flunked it all returned to radio silence, hoping everybody would forget it and it can be buried without raising uncomfortable questions.

You are arguing semantics. I am sure HAL, DRDO, Navy, Air force DoD knew that it was research experiment. Media generally hypes up these things and we as public get riled up over it.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

They did notboffer it authentic reason I am blaming Kaveri and by extension GTRE is because, they ought to have known that you don't just take jet engine and deploy otbas a gas turbine engine. There are some modifications required to compressor spool and ignition chamber among other things. Without doing homework, without solving structural issues, they took a half baked engine with an equally half baked business proposal which by the way was not an Experiment.

 

[RonitBisht]

The Kaveri Debate: Upgrade or Start From Scratch?​

India's efforts to develop cutting-edge engines for its fighter jets face a strategic crossroads. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) plans to create the Kaveri 2.0 – a powerful engine intended for the Tejas Mk1A fighter. On the surface, this seems like a sound upgrade from the Tejas' current American-made engines. Yet, the Kaveri 2.0's development sparks debate when considered alongside a more ambitious project on the horizon.

India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a next-generation fighter, demands an engine far more powerful than the Kaveri 2.0 can offer. The AMCA program may involve international collaboration, potentially leading to an engine capable of an impressive 130kN thrust – power that could pave the way for India's potential 6th-generation fighter projects.

This is where the Kaveri 2.0's role becomes uncertain. Experts suggest that the AMCA engine, if designed for adaptability, could be "detuned" to a lower thrust output suitable for the Tejas Mk1A when it undergoes a major upgrade decades from now. This strategy would streamline costs and logistics, but it also means that the Kaveri 2.0 itself may take a decade and considerable investment to develop, only to potentially be outclassed by the adapted AMCA engine.

So, why push for the Kaveri 2.0? National pride and security play a role – developing indigenous engines reduces reliance on foreign suppliers. Additionally, the Kaveri 2.0 could act as a learning experience for Indian engineers, laying foundations for the AMCA engine. A successful Kaveri 2.0 might even appeal to other countries operating similar jets.

The choice remains with the GTRE. Will they prioritize the Kaveri 2.0 or focus on building a flexible AMCA engine with enough potential for future adaptation? Defense analysts believe India would be better served by refining the AMCA engine and exploring its potential for multiple applications. They argue that a separate Kaveri 2.0 program is unnecessary as the AMCA engine will ultimately be superior.

Some envision a future where India develops AMCA engine variants versatile enough for unmanned combat vehicles, transport aircraft, and even commercial planes.

 

[Hari Sud]

Very confusing and stupid third rate info gathered from ‘informed sources’.

 

[sanket]

Kaveri -2 Should b developed, it will Build confidence. depending on only one Engine is not good .

 

[abhinav srivastava]

A tie up will always be prone to negative surprises. Rather than spending on hope that a friendly country will provide us bleeding edge tech for few billion dollars. Let us put 25% of those billion dollars in indigenous programs. Also pursue foreign collaboration let us see how far it takes us. A derated AMCA engine may turn out to be heavy for Tejas Mk1A.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

1. We should go for Kaveri 2 as it would give us invaluable experience in engine development. It would fully atmanirbhar effort and the engine would be useful even otherwise for advanced UAV applications in future, apart from exports
2. AMCA engine will be another stream of development with a foreign collaborator and that must also go ahead.
3. As regards funding, India should and can afford such twin track if it wishes to be one of the top 3 powers in the world.

 

[Sanatani Yodha]

People must always remember that we have Kaveri engine program in advanced stage that why US is giving us F404 and F414 engines… just to kill desi effort… ask them to sell us F35 engine, they will refuse and once we get near making a desi engine similar to that, they will happily offer us…. Its a standard practices by superpowers so that no one else could come close to them……
Just see, thay r offering F16 (as we have desi Tejas), offering Striker (as we have Whap), conventional subs, etc basically alternative to all desi programs….
So we should follow Chinese model and should develop engines for all class of fighters….

 

[Akshat]

A tie up will always be prone to negative surprises. Rather than spending on hope that a friendly country will provide us bleeding edge tech for few billion dollars. Let us put 25% of those billion dollars in indigenous programs. Also pursue foreign collaboration let us see how far it takes us. A derated AMCA engine may turn out to be heavy for Tejas Mk1A.

But the government gave a blank check to GTRE and they couldn’t do anything. So we need alternatives.

 

[Akshat]

People must always remember that we have Kaveri engine program in advanced stage that why US is giving us F404 and F414 engines… just to kill desi effort… ask them to sell us F35 engine, they will refuse and once we get near making a desi engine similar to that, they will happily offer us…. Its a standard practices by superpowers so that no one else could come close to them……
Just see, thay r offering F16 (as we have desi Tejas), offering Striker (as we have Whap), conventional subs, etc basically alternative to all desi programs….
So we should follow Chinese model and should develop engines for all class of fighters….

They have been offering LCA and F18 since 2006. F35 since 2019. Patriot since 2017. Kaveri is a super failure. It’s not gonna work as long as it’s with GTRE.

 

[Akshat]

1. We should go for Kaveri 2 as it would give us invaluable experience in engine development. It would fully atmanirbhar effort and the engine would be useful even otherwise for advanced UAV applications in future, apart from exports
2. AMCA engine will be another stream of development with a foreign collaborator and that must also go ahead.
3. As regards funding, India should and can afford such twin track if it wishes to be one of the top 3 powers in the world.

Agreed that we should go for an indigenous engine. But Kaveri is long gone. As they say, don’t throw good money after bad. Move on from GTRE and find alternatives.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

If, and a very big if, GTRE can muster enough capabilities to substitute GE-F404 with a Kaveri 2.0? What is the problem with that?

Some defence experts are just full of themselves.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Agreed that we should go for an indigenous engine. But Kaveri is long gone. As they say, don’t throw good money after bad. Move on from GTRE and find alternatives.

That is if the bad money was indeed bad to begin with.

Know the story of HF-24 Marut?
The Government of India under Nerwoo, developed cold feet financing 13 Million pounds to Bristol for the development of Bristol BOr.12 Orpheus, for which Bristol Aircraft offered HAL complete IP ownership, and 13 Million was not a princely sum for India even in 1960s. But Nerwoo, as we all know, did not have an appetite for strategic thinking.

Due to Nerwoo's shortsightedness, HAL was forced to make do with non-afterburning Orpheus 703 turbojets which paralyzed the HF-24 for good and also devoid India with an opportunity to kick-start manufacturing and development of a very decent jet engine.

Good money after bad money? Depends.