Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[Sandeep]

I have to agree with you here. You have consistently on multiple occassions made objective and pragmatic assertions, without the usual delusions of grandeur which is so rampant on this site. Brutal honesty and unflinching pragmatism I find is alien to most of my fellow citizens even more so amongst our administrative/policy making class.

Currently the Kaveri engine has passed its test and been certified to produce a reliable, resilient and efficient 50kn of thrust. This engine will be used on our stealth UCAV Ghatak drone which will cut down on foreign expensive imports. If we want to produce a higher amount of thrust then we need to develop and install a indigenous afterburner which can produce a higher amount of wet thrust and meet the engine requirements for our Tejas jet. This can allow us to then swap out the F404 engine when it completes its service life and if we have developed the afterburner and it passes all of the tests and is certified then we could replace those with the Kaveri engine rather than the USA F404 engine.

At the same time we are also developing the Kaveri marine engine which is going through many tests and it's showing a good performance. We can then use this for small to medium ships and could soon cut down on foreign expensive imports. The engine hasn't even been tested or used on any boat so far but it still has a while to go to ensure it is eventually certified. So your information and knowledge isn't correct at all and progress is being made as the Kaveri engine has passed all of its tests and trials and it has been certified.

 

[Sandeep]

The Kaveri which in the past has demonstrated serious issues in delivering flat thrust suddenly is so good that it will deliver performance without any loss of thrust? Gimme a break! It's almost impossible to build a jet engine that can deliver 100% thrust across all flight envelop. Even the adaptive cycle engines under development don't promise to deliver absolute thrust.

Besides, given the shoddy track record of the troubled project, it's difficult to trust GTRE. Thus as I said will believe it when they produce and demonstrate results in actual engine performance. Till then take whatever GTRE says or promises with a truck full of salt.

Your absolutely incorrect and knowledge is lacking. If the Kaveri engine has passed all of its test and certified to deliver 50kn of thrust how is that a failure?

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

I'm afraid your information is incorrect. Currently the Kaveri Marine engine is still going through the testing phase and it hasn't been tested on a boat out at sea. So there was no burial at sea at all.

Oh it will underrgo testing eternally, just won't clear it in its original form. It needed serious redesign of some critical components and sub systems which seems to be in the process of being implemented in prototype produced by Godrej. The one produced by Godrej has made several modifications and that's what is being tested.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I know that work is going on by HAL, alomg with DRDO for a marine gas turbine engine, it must be related to kaveri, and uses the teachings of it.

As for the failure of kaveri for marine engine usage, it is u derstandable that it failed after all you can put an engine designed for fighter jets in a ship and expect it to perform great. It was more for research in my opinion.

Not quite they were at one point of time seriously pushing for the failed Kaveri jet engine to be reporposed ad a Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine and even Navy was actually considering it. Had it performed well, idea was to salvage the project by repurposing it as marine engine to power small fast attack crafts and missile boats. However, as fate would have it it flunked at delivering flat rated output at even sea level.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Your absolutely incorrect and knowledge is lacking. If the Kaveri engine has passed all of its test and certified to deliver 50kn of thrust how is that a failure?

It's certified tn dry thrust format only and is not cleared for anything but applications on UAV. Moreover it's clearance is preliminary and provisional so as to commence testing on board UAV.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

China and US have hot and humid conditions available within their borders. Maybe you should pick up an Atlas

Nothing like India. The type of climate variation that India presents is one of kind. There is just way too much tempreature variation that will definitely put stress on engine far more than what would have been normally possible.This thing was attested by Lockheed themselves after their F16 suffered flameout during MRCA trials.

 

[Varaaah]

If the govt can grab all the illegal begotten wealth of the P. Chidambaran clan, then the development of this engine can be funded easily.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Not quite they were at one point of time seriously pushing for the failed Kaveri jet engine to be reporposed ad a Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine and even Navy was actually considering it. Had it performed well, idea was to salvage the project by repurposing it as marine engine to power small fast attack crafts and missile boats. However, as fate would have it it flunked at delivering flat rated output at even sea level.

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

 

[kumar]

Many people don't understand, how much effort is required in developing jet engine and going about giving gyan that kaveri engine is a failure. They don't even know the present status of kaveri engine and obviously, the comparative difference between kaveri engine and f404 engine technology level.

 

[Pink Panther]

very Good news I was always saying after Fine Tunning kaveri may produce 85 to 90 kN Thrust . so Indian Tech is far better than foreign Tech where it does not loose its Thrust against Foreign Engine which tends to loose 10%.

If this engine is not good enough for Tejas we can fit two of these engines and make ORCA, still 10KN more powerful than SNECMA M-88, for people who talk about thrust to wait ratio, ORCA could also be made much lighter with composites and titanium just like Rafale., we have expertise in both Composites and Titanium.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine Engine is as much alive as the TAPAS drone. Though officially still under development both, have been deprioritized by government. That's almost as good as killing the project.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

Nope they cant. Though jet engines and gas turbines are functionally similar, there is a huge difference in its pressure rating. The compressor spool on a jet engine has much higher tolerances while gas turbine does not need to take such pressure.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I know that work is going on by HAL, alomg with DRDO for a marine gas turbine engine, it must be related to kaveri, and uses the teachings of it.

As for the failure of kaveri for marine engine usage, it is u derstandable that it failed after all you can put an engine designed for fighter jets in a ship and expect it to perform great. It was more for research in my opinion.

Work is indeed going on, but its bereft of Kaveri influence and is a clean sheet attempt. Till the time Kaveri demonstrates a capability to sufficiently deliver flat rated performance across its entire operation envelop, its not going to go any where near a manned platform. Neither a manned fighter nor a manned naval vessel.

 

[desigandu]

why not 85-90 with afterburners in Kaveri-2s, so we can use them for Tejas Mk1 and 1A engine replacements...

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Nope they cant. Though jet engines and gas turbines are functionally similar, there is a huge difference in its pressure rating. The compressor spool on a jet engine has much higher tolerances while gas turbine does not need to take such pressure.

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

Except they did not offer it as an experiment. They were seriously pitching for the conversion of Kaveri for marine engine applications to salvage the project. However, it failed even at sea level after persistently Navy which mind u is fairly amicable to trying out indigenous systems also lost interest as it just failed to comply with performance specifications.

I distinctly remember back then also there was a flurry of news items every now and then on the possibility of conversion of Kaveri for marine gas turbine applications. They kept creating a PR promotion campaign, and when it suddenly flunked it all returned to radio silence, hoping everybody would forget it and it can be buried without raising uncomfortable questions.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I have to agree with you here. You have consistently on multiple occassions made objective and pragmatic assertions, without the usual delusions of grandeur which is so rampant on this site. Brutal honesty and unflinching pragmatism I find is alien to most of my fellow citizens even more so amongst our administrative/policy making class.

This site has suddenly turned into a fanboy site, that just keeps chattering. What they forget is that problem-solving starts with identifying that you have a problem in the first place. Several people on this forum have a problem of "No Problem" and think everything is fine and hunky dory just because we are developing.

I believe analyze any situation we need to dispassionately look at the issue, honestly in the most pragmatic manner, without pushing glaring issues under the carpet. Just because it makes us uncomfortable, we can't close our eyes and hope issues will vanish. Till structural issues with DRDO/GTRE functioning are sorted, I don't foresee any major change in its performance unfortunately. Mind u even I want India to build its indigenous defense industry, but the way DRDO/GTRE/HAL functions, that wont happen any time soon.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Except they did not offer it as an experiment. They were seriously pitching for the conversion of Kaveri for marine engine applications to salvage the project. However, it failed even at sea level after persistently Navy which mind u is fairly amicable to trying out indigenous systems also lost interest as it just failed to comply with performance specifications.

I distinctly remember back then also there was a flurry of news items every now and then on the possibility of conversion of Kaveri for marine gas turbine applications. They kept creating a PR promotion campaign, and when it suddenly flunked it all returned to radio silence, hoping everybody would forget it and it can be buried without raising uncomfortable questions.

You are arguing semantics. I am sure HAL, DRDO, Navy, Air force DoD knew that it was research experiment. Media generally hypes up these things and we as public get riled up over it.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So why are you blaming Kaveri for not performing well in marine trials? They just wanted to experiment and collect data.

They did notboffer it authentic reason I am blaming Kaveri and by extension GTRE is because, they ought to have known that you don't just take jet engine and deploy otbas a gas turbine engine. There are some modifications required to compressor spool and ignition chamber among other things. Without doing homework, without solving structural issues, they took a half baked engine with an equally half baked business proposal which by the way was not an Experiment.

 

[RonitBisht]

The Kaveri Debate: Upgrade or Start From Scratch?​

India's efforts to develop cutting-edge engines for its fighter jets face a strategic crossroads. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) plans to create the Kaveri 2.0 – a powerful engine intended for the Tejas Mk1A fighter. On the surface, this seems like a sound upgrade from the Tejas' current American-made engines. Yet, the Kaveri 2.0's development sparks debate when considered alongside a more ambitious project on the horizon.

India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a next-generation fighter, demands an engine far more powerful than the Kaveri 2.0 can offer. The AMCA program may involve international collaboration, potentially leading to an engine capable of an impressive 130kN thrust – power that could pave the way for India's potential 6th-generation fighter projects.

This is where the Kaveri 2.0's role becomes uncertain. Experts suggest that the AMCA engine, if designed for adaptability, could be "detuned" to a lower thrust output suitable for the Tejas Mk1A when it undergoes a major upgrade decades from now. This strategy would streamline costs and logistics, but it also means that the Kaveri 2.0 itself may take a decade and considerable investment to develop, only to potentially be outclassed by the adapted AMCA engine.

So, why push for the Kaveri 2.0? National pride and security play a role – developing indigenous engines reduces reliance on foreign suppliers. Additionally, the Kaveri 2.0 could act as a learning experience for Indian engineers, laying foundations for the AMCA engine. A successful Kaveri 2.0 might even appeal to other countries operating similar jets.

The choice remains with the GTRE. Will they prioritize the Kaveri 2.0 or focus on building a flexible AMCA engine with enough potential for future adaptation? Defense analysts believe India would be better served by refining the AMCA engine and exploring its potential for multiple applications. They argue that a separate Kaveri 2.0 program is unnecessary as the AMCA engine will ultimately be superior.

Some envision a future where India develops AMCA engine variants versatile enough for unmanned combat vehicles, transport aircraft, and even commercial planes.