L&T and Navantia Propose S-80 Plus Submarines with High Indigenous Content for Indian Navy Tender

Larsen & Toubro (L&T), a major Indian engineering firm, has teamed up with Navantia, a shipbuilding company from Spain, to offer India a new generation submarine. They're calling their proposal the S-80 Plus, and it's designed to be a stealthy underwater weapon packed with the latest technology.

But there's another wrinkle to this story that might appeal to India in a big way: almost 60% of the parts for these submarines would be built right here in India! This is a major boost for the Indian government's "Make in India" initiative, which aims to turn India into a hub for manufacturing and technology.

If L&T-Navantia wins the bid, it would mean a big investment in Indian factories and workers. Indian companies would get the chance to build parts for these powerful submarines, gaining valuable skills and experience in the process. This could be a big jump forward for India's domestic defense industry.

Of course, L&T-Navantia isn't the only company vying for this contract. They'll be facing competition, but their focus on using Indian-made parts could be a major advantage.

 

[Satya Dev]

Local content 60% in terms of numbers or cost?

 

[NSR]

Local content of 60% for the first submarine only, then it must gradually increase up to 100% local content as specified by the RFI release.

Don't give up on getting 100% TOT by the 6th submarine for P-75I at all as it is the last great SSK India will be having until its own Indian Navy Warship Design Bureau (WDB) designed P-76 comes on stream.

Bargain hard for 100% TOT by the end of completion of contract.

 

[Arz786]

Local content of 60% for the first submarine only, then it must gradually increase up to 100% local content as specified by the RFI release.

Don't give up on getting 100% TOT by the 6th submarine for P-75I at all as it is the last great SSK India will be having until its own Indian Navy Warship Design Bureau (WDB) designed P-76 comes on stream.

Bargain hard for 100% TOT by the end of completion of contract.

ToT and Indigenous content may not go hand in hand. Even if you have full ToT, why would you want to make low-tech components on your own if such components are available commercially off the shelf and if your cost is higher because of lack of economy of scale?
Only the critical items or items that require technological maturity and is difficult to attain should be taken up for ToT. Actually, Navy should provide a list of required ToT to both vendors.

 

[NSR]

ToT and Indigenous content may not go hand in hand. Even if you have full ToT, why would you want to make low-tech components on your own if such components are available commercially off the shelf and if your cost is higher because of lack of economy of scale?
Only the critical items or items that require technological maturity and is difficult to attain should be taken up for ToT. Actually, Navy should provide a list of required ToT to both vendors.

We shall wait and see what consists of 40% non -local content and about their future.

 

[Sandeep]

Local content of 60% for the first submarine only, then it must gradually increase up to 100% local content as specified by the RFI release.

Don't give up on getting 100% TOT by the 6th submarine for P-75I at all as it is the last great SSK India will be having until its own Indian Navy Warship Design Bureau (WDB) designed P-76 comes on stream.

Bargain hard for 100% TOT by the end of completion of contract.

We might want 100% of the technology but nobody ever gives that as after finishing those 6 submarines India could start making it and selling the submarine for a much cheaper price which would kill any chance of Spain ever selling their submarine. Also Spain will want to make sure that they maintain technological supremacy over us because India could always sell a equipment or technology to another country and it might harm Spain's defence.

 

[Sandeep]

It's highly unlikely that India will want to buy the Navantia submarines as they are very new, has untested technology and capabilities and its life longevity is unknown. The navy favour the German submarines as it has better technology, combat suite, software, advanced and modern submarine computer, cheap reliable engine, good fuel efficiency, familiar with German technology and it can use advanced torpedos and missiles.

The government should quickly pick Germany and conclude price negotiations, technology negotiations along with the amount of indigenous content and the amount of local manufacturing we can do. This should be the last foreign submarine that India should ever buy from and we need to quickly start P76 as soon as possible because we need more submarines. We also need to quickly develop and continue with the last two larger Arihant class submarine as soon as possible. At the same time we will need to develop another 3-6 larger nuclear ballistic submarines that are twice as big as the Arihant submarines which will allow us to carry more nuclear weapons with a longer range. We also need to build P75 Alpha nuclear attack submarine using a more powerful engine that's twice as fast, good and power compared to the other submarine.

 

[NSR]

We might want 100% of the technology but nobody ever gives that as after finishing those 6 submarines India could start making it and selling the submarine for a much cheaper price which would kill any chance of Spain ever selling their submarine. Also Spain will want to make sure that they maintain technological supremacy over us because India could always sell a equipment or technology to another country and it might harm Spain's defence.

I think RFI terms indicate that OEM going to establish and do design and development and manufacturing wholly in India.
That is the important facet of P-75I as Scorpened hardly transferred even 40% of TOT and now asking for 3 additional subs contract with Indian AIPs.

South Koreans reverse engineered many features of German submarines and trying to sell them by themselves.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

We might want 100% of the technology but nobody ever gives that as after finishing those 6 submarines India could start making it and selling the submarine for a much cheaper price which would kill any chance of Spain ever selling their submarine. Also Spain will want to make sure that they maintain technological supremacy over us because India could always sell a equipment or technology to another country and it might harm Spain's defence.

Then it becomes pointless to buy them if it will lead to permanent dependency on imported parts

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

It's highly unlikely that India will want to buy the Navantia submarines as they are very new, has untested technology and capabilities and its life longevity is unknown. The navy favour the German submarines as it has better technology, combat suite, software, advanced and modern submarine computer, cheap reliable engine, good fuel efficiency, familiar with German technology and it can use advanced torpedos and missiles.

The government should quickly pick Germany and conclude price negotiations, technology negotiations along with the amount of indigenous content and the amount of local manufacturing we can do. This should be the last foreign submarine that India should ever buy from and we need to quickly start P76 as soon as possible because we need more submarines. We also need to quickly develop and continue with the last two larger Arihant class submarine as soon as possible. At the same time we will need to develop another 3-6 larger nuclear ballistic submarines that are twice as big as the Arihant submarines which will allow us to carry more nuclear weapons with a longer range. We also need to build P75 Alpha nuclear attack submarine using a more powerful engine that's twice as fast, good and power compared to the other submarine.

Will Germany give 100% TOT? If not it is even more useless. India can make submarines at 10+/year also if needed and 100% tech is indigenised. But indigenisation is key. Wasting time and resource buying imported items in limited quantity makes no sense. It is better to save up the money and go for more number of indian submarines after few years. If all parts are Indian, there will be no limit to the scaling of the submarine quantity

 

[abhinav srivastava]

ToT and Indigenous content may not go hand in hand. Even if you have full ToT, why would you want to make low-tech components on your own if such components are available commercially off the shelf and if your cost is higher because of lack of economy of scale?
Only the critical items or items that require technological maturity and is difficult to attain should be taken up for ToT. Actually, Navy should provide a list of required ToT to both vendors.

Some components may be costlier to produce but when we go for Project 76I, nuclear attack subs. Those components or new components based on them will turn out to be cost effective. Once we gain the expertise on a subsystem we can upgrade it and use it in other subs as well. Like how Tejas/AMCA development is leading to desi upgrades for SU30 MKI's.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Will Germany give 100% TOT? If not it is even more useless. India can make submarines at 10+/year also if needed and 100% tech is indigenised. But indigenisation is key. Wasting time and resource buying imported items in limited quantity makes no sense. It is better to save up the money and go for more number of indian submarines after few years. If all parts are Indian, there will be no limit to the scaling of the submarine quantity

10+/year is like asking for too much.

 

[Pink Panther]

Will Germany give 100% TOT? If not it is even more useless. India can make submarines at 10+/year also if needed and 100% tech is indigenised. But indigenisation is key. Wasting time and resource buying imported items in limited quantity makes no sense. It is better to save up the money and go for more number of indian submarines after few years. If all parts are Indian, there will be no limit to the scaling of the submarine quantity

Germany’s offer will even be worse than this offer, they usually never give any TOT.

 

[INDIAN]

Pakistan is already inducting submarines, and we Indian are in eternal limbo...Their is no urgency on part of Indian government or armed forces, and also Indian people are not interested.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

10+/year is like asking for too much.

If it is indigenous and India wants more submarines, it is possible to scale up at will. WW2 has seen much larger scale production than just 10/yr. So, not a difficult task. But imported weapons will always be quantity limited with vague statements like "balance of power", "operational needs" etc which are just indirect ways of saying foreign countries don't want India to be strong enough to challenge them.

 

[INDIAN]

Lets order them in large quantity , at least 10-12 of them , just 5, 6 will not suffice.
And don't kill time for eternal evaluation and negotiations ,approvals and releasing funds.
Learn it from Pakistan , even its inducting 8 Hangoor class submarine.

 

[Anant]

Will Germany give 100% TOT? If not it is even more useless. India can make submarines at 10+/year also if needed and 100% tech is indigenised. But indigenisation is key. Wasting time and resource buying imported items in limited quantity makes no sense. It is better to save up the money and go for more number of indian submarines after few years. If all parts are Indian, there will be no limit to the scaling of the submarine quantity

10 submarines a year? Seriously? Please do us a favour and either become better acquainted with reality, or visit a doctor.

10 submarines a year is utterly crazy for anyone. Quite literally anyone. The last time a nation hit 10 submarines a year was the US doing that in World War 2, and believe you me that those submarines were far simpler the ones we build today.

With massive funding, political willpower, a large enough order, given enough time, etc, we could theoretically reach 1 or 2 submarines a year (so 6-12 submarines under construction at any point), but that's about it.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

10 submarines a year? Seriously? Please do us a favour and either become better acquainted with reality, or visit a doctor.

10 submarines a year is utterly crazy for anyone. Quite literally anyone. The last time a nation hit 10 submarines a year was the US doing that in World War 2, and believe you me that those submarines were far simpler the ones we build today.

With massive funding, political willpower, a large enough order, given enough time, etc, we could theoretically reach 1 or 2 submarines a year (so 6-12 submarines under construction at any point), but that's about it.

With increased population, improved tech & machinery. what was done in WW2 can be replicated. USA made over 60 subs a year & Germany over a 100. 10 is much smaller than that. Since you don't have any logic or reason other than your own delusions and low IQ incapable of understanding contexts & change, I can't help you

 

[Pink Panther]

It's highly unlikely that India will want to buy the Navantia submarines as they are very new, has untested technology and capabilities and its life longevity is unknown. The navy favour the German submarines as it has better technology, combat suite, software, advanced and modern submarine computer, cheap reliable engine, good fuel efficiency, familiar with German technology and it can use advanced torpedos and missiles.

The government should quickly pick Germany and conclude price negotiations, technology negotiations along with the amount of indigenous content and the amount of local manufacturing we can do. This should be the last foreign submarine that India should ever buy from and we need to quickly start P76 as soon as possible because we need more submarines. We also need to quickly develop and continue with the last two larger Arihant class submarine as soon as possible. At the same time we will need to develop another 3-6 larger nuclear ballistic submarines that are twice as big as the Arihant submarines which will allow us to carry more nuclear weapons with a longer range. We also need to build P75 Alpha nuclear attack submarine using a more powerful engine that's twice as fast, good and power compared to the other submarine.

S80 plus is nothing but a elongated scorpene with Spanish Built AIP and ACS, Lockheed guided them through the project and even tested the stability, so S80 plus is not something new, it has some sort of commonality with Scorpene.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

If it is indigenous and India wants more submarines, it is possible to scale up at will. WW2 has seen much larger scale production than just 10/yr. So, not a difficult task. But imported weapons will always be quantity limited with vague statements like "balance of power", "operational needs" etc which are just indirect ways of saying foreign countries don't want India to be strong enough to challenge them.

Theoretically, yes. But don't think it's practically possible in India. However I would be happy if proven wrong.

 

[desigandu]

Will Germany give 100% TOT? If not it is even more useless. India can make submarines at 10+/year also if needed and 100% tech is indigenised. But indigenisation is key. Wasting time and resource buying imported items in limited quantity makes no sense. It is better to save up the money and go for more number of indian submarines after few years. If all parts are Indian, there will be no limit to the scaling of the submarine quantity

10 subs a year by any country today, lest alone India is impossible and not even desirable - we are not Militarizing our entire industrial base, like was done in WW2...Realism is essential for military planning that should stem from a formal national security strategy...Of course you are entitled to your views, but I would caution against insults and anger - a fact based discussion is not just proper ethically, but also helpful for all.

 

[desigandu]

I think like MRFA (unless scrapped) may go to the French Rafales, P-75Is may go to Germany's TKMS 212s...Question - can anyone say with facts which German sub is in play - 212/214/216/218 or heavily customized like the Israeli Dakar class???

 

[Oleg Olkha]

@ desigandu https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...-to-acquire-stake-in-tkms/article68142895.ece
"...The design offered by the TKMS for P-75I is based on its highly successful Class 214 submarine as well as Class 212CD, with the submarine featuring angular design ( Common Design) for minimised radar cross-section, it has been learnt. Meanwhile, Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL), the Indian partner of the TKMS, has begun work on the first phase of submarine design, sources in the know said." Regards...

 

[Oleg Olkha]

Have to say I was pretty surprised myself: Conceptual Design is the initial stage of design, success!