No Alternate Engine Available for Tejas Mk1A as Kaveri Engine Still Facing Delays

India's ambitious Tejas Mk1A program is facing potential setbacks due to the ongoing delays in the supply of F404 engines from GE Aerospace. These delays, stemming from supply chain constraints, are predicted to push back the delivery of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) by 10-12 months.

A critical concern lies in the lack of a readily available alternative engine for the Tejas Mk1A. The aircraft was specifically designed around the F404 engine, and other options are either not feasible or years away from being ready. India's indigenous Kaveri engine, though promising, faces its own set of delays and won't be production-ready for another 5-6 years. Meanwhile, the RD-33 engine, once considered a fallback option, is no longer viable.

Despite the engine supply hiccups, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will continue manufacturing the Tejas Mk1A at its current pace. This strategy aims to ensure the jets are ready for immediate delivery once the F404 engines become available again. GE Aerospace has stated it is working with HAL to address the supply chain bottlenecks and has set a target of September 2024 for resuming engine deliveries.

These delays are likely to have a cascading effect on the Indian Air Force's (IAF) plans for inducting the Tejas Mk1A. The IAF is actively looking to expand its fighter squadrons, and the Tejas Mk1A plays a crucial role in this strategic plan. Any delay in the aircraft's delivery could potentially impact the IAF's operational preparedness.

 

[Swapy]

Another bungling by HAL. MK1a was HAL's baby & they decided to use an engine variant which had closed its line of producion. GOI should seriously restructure HAL so that it will run efficiently. Moreover only people with merit should be recruited by HAL (& to any other DPSUs) & a management which understands the commercial aspect of timely delivery & wise decision making. The management should not be from the military & recruited purely on the basis of capability of the candidate.

SK FA50 jet getting same GE404 engine on time. From where this engine coming from any idea? recently KA50 got export orders too. you meant they have got this engines before giving orders?

 

[Sandeep]

India has no other option but to wait for GE to resume manufacturing it and supplying it to us.

India needs to make a deal that’s similar to the F414 engine. We should receive 80% of the technology and manufacture it in India with Indian content. India will have at least 200 Tejas MK1A jets in service and throughout their 30-40 year lifespan they will use at least 600-800 engines. This is a huge long term order and we should make a deal and manufacture the engines in India to avoid problems like this. We should also set up several MRO facilities in India that’s close to the border to reduce travel time and avoid delays in servicing them.

 

[R. Singh]

ADA/HAL should first ink deal with Rolls Royce to make 90KN engines here in India with 80% TOT with IP rights and then modify engine fuselage accordingly for upcoming 97 Tejas-1A order !

 

[Akshat]

HAL can Integrate Airframes But what about Engines.............??? GE should have started Ramping up production once they signed the deal in 2021 (Three years ago) Production is depended on Orders IAF wants another 97 Tejas MK1A. There is good Business For GE. Its up too GE how they deal it now. wait & see september 2024 deadline From Last 10 months they are Giving new deadlines add one more to that.Testing Time for Indo-US Defence partnership.a very hard Time India is passing Through.

Before blaming GE, why don't you ask where are the trainers themselves which should have been delivered a long way back? Where is the first Mk1A, for which engines are present? So engine is still not the critical bottleneck. HAL is.

 

[Akshat]

Another bungling by HAL. MK1a was HAL's baby & they decided to use an engine variant which had closed its line of producion. GOI should seriously restructure HAL so that it will run efficiently. Moreover only people with merit should be recruited by HAL (& to any other DPSUs) & a management which understands the commercial aspect of timely delivery & wise decision making. The management should not be from the military & recruited purely on the basis of capability of the candidate.

People recruited do have merit. Problem is the structure of the organization. Once they enter the organization, they have no incentive to work.

 

[Akshat]

Engine didn't selected by the IAF, Ge won the tender on the basis of L1 supplier!! IAF preferrence choice was EJ2000 engine at that time!!
USA is always unreliable partner for India due to few reasons that India was never a vessel state for the USA!!
Kaveri program surely deserve more funds and priority!!

You are talking about the engine for LCA Mk2.

For Tejas, MoD had sanctioned Kaveri engine. F404 was a place holder till the time Kaveri was ready. But when Kaveri was thrown out, the place holder became the main engine.

Kaveri program needs a new player now. Funds and priority should be given only after throwing GTRE out of the project.

 

[Akshat]

Btw, Engine was selected by IAF and the deal is G2G through FMS. HAL is responsible, but it’s really not their cup of tea. MoD and MoF should have pulled their weight about 10 months ago when GE failed to meet the delivery date and again missed the revised delivery date. Let’s see what happens in Sep.

Testing time for Indo-US defence cooperation. Alignment of interests with US is never gonna be easy as they’d always have some issue somewhere and India’s interest may be completely opposite. Unfortunately in this case we can’t oblige US on Ukraine. Russia is not Iran.

unfortunately our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri some 15 years back. Tragic and short sighted. Not that Kaveri was ever funded properly, but even the paltry sum stopped too. Some 300m in today’s value was all that invested. Let’s see if our babus and IAF wakes up.

More lies. Kaveri was receiving funds at least till 2016. This is officially on record.

Like always, spreading lies and rumors to defend the inept and useless so-called-scientists of DRDO. Typical DRDO apologist.

 

[Akshat]

That's factual wrong info on this part!! Hal never selected Ge engines and it's not their part to have a say in this while it's true that IAF also not wanted Ge engines, IAF preferred for the EJ2000 engines but Ge won the tender by L1 from the gov so no one's fault here and about closure of line of this particular engine when hal placed orders at that time if Ge clears that they will not able to provide engine within this time period then it is understandable but they choose silently accept the order!!
Ge has to deliver the engine way back in Oct-Nov but deadline is missed!!!

Again, you are talking about F414 engines for LCA Mk2.

 

[Akshat]

74kn after burning kaveri engine is good enough for tejas as ge engines do not much better and 90 kn after burning Kaveri is good enough for AMCA.

Kaveri is the biggest dud ever. Doesn't work at all.

 

[sanket]

Perhaps but I am not sure of Euro-Fighter performance at all.
Gotta look at it.
It is not selling like Rafale though.

I wish France/Dassault will at least setup a assembly and maintenance and upgrade company with a private company like TATA or Mahindra for its 26 Rafale-M and possibly additional 36 or 54 Rafales so that they can be delivered quickly.

Last Time in MMRCA Euro-Fighter was Runner up ,Courtesy Rafale L1 Bidder Only Thing IAF may b hesitant is its is Manufactured by more than One Nation, sold more than Rafale almost 800 have been till date. Only Two Fighter have meet Parameters of Last MMRCA.

 

[NSR]

Last Time in MMRCA Euro-Fighter was Runner up ,Courtesy Rafale L1 Bidder Only Thing IAF may b hesitant is its is Manufactured by more than One Nation, sold more than Rafale almost 800 have been till date. Only Two Fighter have meet Parameters of Last MMRCA.

First mistake - we declared Dassault Rafale L1 bidder. India should have kept L1 and L2 in the field and made concurrent negotiations to get the best TOT and prices.

Second mistake - We ordered 36 Rafales instead of 126 Rafales and went under the boot of France/Dassault

Third mistake - we ordered $1.2 billions worth of India specific enhancements for a paltry 36 Rafales so Dassault knows that India will come back no matter what price they ask. We did not go and a stalemate ensured.

Fourth mistake - we repeated the first mistake with Rafale-M.

Just wait and see the price tag for Rafale-Ms and 3 additional Scorpenes. Posters here will go into shock.

 

[sanket]

First mistake - we declared Dassault Rafale L1 bidder. India should have kept L1 and L2 in the field and made concurrent negotiations to get the best TOT and prices.

Second mistake - We ordered 36 Rafales instead of 126 Rafales and went under the boot of France/Dassault

Third mistake - we ordered $1.2 billions worth of India specific enhancements for a paltry 36 Rafales so Dassault knows that India will come back no matter what price they ask. We did not go and a stalemate ensured.

Fourth mistake - we repeated the first mistake with Rafale-M.

Just wait and see the price tag for Rafale-Ms and 3 additional Scorpenes. Posters here will go into shock.

You Right Bro.Instead have made use of Euro-fighter to put pressure on Dassault and get best deal .Now second thing we have lost Valueable Time almost decade .

 

[NSR]

You Right Bro.Instead have made use of Euro-fighter to put pressure on Dassault and get best deal .Now second thing we have lost Valueable Time almost decade .

Thanks, @sanket.

I think to show our steadfast resolve, Indian Navy should select both 6 German HDW 212 derivative for MDL and 6 Spainish S-80+ for L&T and make them build quickly concurrently so that India can have 12 ultra modern and AIP submarines in a decade.
Even 60% TOT from them is better and L&T will absorb TOT better than MDL.

So in a decade we will have whole submarine infrastructure to build our own Indian Navy Warship Design Bureau (WDB) designed P-76 submarines 100% in India.

India must make a course change and select both U-212+ and S-80+ submarines.

 

[beencensured]

SK FA50 jet getting same GE404 engine on time. From where this engine coming from any idea? recently KA50 got export orders too. you meant they have got this engines before giving orders?

There was an article that they would supply Korea first.

 

[beencensured]

Kaveri is the biggest dud ever. Doesn't work at all.

Source? May be from your French brain?

 

[Parimal Pandya]

Indian intellectuals expect high-tech products when substandard output of the educational institutions lines up for peon jobs everywhere with the PhD degrees

 

[wallisk]

When did India order engines for the Tejas MK1A?

16 nos. of GE F414 engines were ordered for prototypes of MK1A jets testing program I saw in one youtube video....

 

[sanket]

Thanks, @sanket.

I think to show our steadfast resolve, Indian Navy should select both 6 German HDW 212 derivative for MDL and 6 Spainish S-80+ for L&T and make them build quickly concurrently so that India can have 12 ultra modern and AIP submarines in a decade.
Even 60% TOT from them is better and L&T will absorb TOT better than MDL.

So in a decade we will have whole submarine infrastructure to build our own Indian Navy Warship Design Bureau (WDB) designed P-76 submarines 100% in India.

India must make a course change and select both U-212+ and S-80+ submarines.

Yeah Ur Right it take Time to complete the process & select a Sub second by selecting both not only IN will add subs Faster but will get two types of Tech .

 

[Anurag]

You are talking about the engine for LCA Mk2.

For Tejas, MoD had sanctioned Kaveri engine. F404 was a place holder till the time Kaveri was ready. But when Kaveri was thrown out, the place holder became the main engine.

Kaveri program needs a new player now. Funds and priority should be given only after throwing GTRE out of the project.

Kaveri program what really did we spend on kaveri?? Just few millions!!
when Ge is not able to supply engine on time everyone remember kaveri!!
Kaveri program is just merely technology demonstration for now!!
Naah I am talking about Tejas mk1 when options are wide open for IAF to select which one when kaveri is not able to roof itself!!
IAF considered Safran M-88 and Ej-200 and Ge-404!!

 

[Nvs rao]

Another bungling by HAL. MK1a was HAL's baby & they decided to use an engine variant which had closed its line of producion. GOI should seriously restructure HAL so that it will run efficiently. Moreover only people with merit should be recruited by HAL (& to any other DPSUs) & a management which understands the commercial aspect of timely delivery & wise decision making. The management should not be from the military & recruited purely on the basis of capability of the candidate.

GOI first allot enough funds ,and timely release of funds.
MOD will give clearances for tech spares imports and grant permission as war foot basis. That would be a better solution.
anybody know the induction of staff process in deffence industries. They are very tuff screening mechanism is there they performed earlier, and performing now also.
Government policy paralysis is main delay for amca since2019 designs aproval taken this much years.
kavrri engine tested and certified by safron in 2019 but flight trails stopped, nobody knows the reason
this is the things those creating delays

 

[Akshat]

Kaveri program what really did we spend on kaveri?? Just few millions!!
when Ge is not able to supply engine on time everyone remember kaveri!!
Kaveri program is just merely technology demonstration for now!!
Naah I am talking about Tejas mk1 when options are wide open for IAF to select which one when kaveri is not able to roof itself!!
IAF considered Safran M-88 and Ej-200 and Ge-404!!

Nopes. IAF never considered EJ 200. In fact, EJ 200 first flew late 1991. Design of Tejas was already finalized by then and first TD was rolled out in 1995. So even if an offer was made, of which there is no evidence, then it couldn't have been seriously considered anyways.

The exact amount spent on Kaveri is irrelevant. What matters is that GoI paid whatever GTRE asked for. In fact, GTRE couldn't even finish it. So as long as we are talking about a GTRE led Kaveri, more than enough funds were spent and any more couldn't have changed the outcome. If you are saying that we should have thrown GTRE out and tried with more funds, that can still be a valid argument.

As for GE, well, HAL is yet to even supply all the trainers for which engines are delivered. First Mk1A, which has it's engines delivered as well, has not yet completed it's flight trials. So again, GE not supplying enough engines is just a hog wash. HAL is only trying to shift the blames.

 

[Akshat]

Source? May be from your French brain?

Is it operational? Or is your socialist brain hallucinating?

 

[Devasahayam]

Perhaps India should go with Super Sukhoi upgrade with the new and powerful AL-41-1F-1C fighter engine and use this on a derivative of Tejas IA if it fits and definitely on Tejas Mk 2.

AL-41 engine is readily available and also there is already infrastructure to manufacture AL-31 which can help to absorb new engine TOT if Russia transfers.

Or go with ERJ-2000 engine which will go through too many sanctions by even two bit countries in Europe.

Not many better options left.

AL-31 and AL-41 are way too big for Tejas -- you could as well have stated M-53 (engine for Mirage-2000)...

 

[kumar]

Even after such big fiasco from US suppliers, our armed forces still rely on US weapons. Our armed forces don't learn from past, they are not learning from present and they sure will not learn in future. Until we indegenize and our armed forces transition from buyers force to builders force there is no true independent India and our foreign policy will always be subjected to whims and fancies of foreign countries. Indegenization is the only answer. For now IN should junk GE engines for warships and instead go for RR engines with full tot and production line in India. This will start applying pressure on GE and US. Then start discussions for ej200 tot and production in India and feasibility of integration into tejas. This will apply more pressure on GE.

 

[Sudha]

74kn after burning kaveri engine is good enough for tejas as ge engines do not much better and 90 kn after burning Kaveri is good enough for AMCA.

🤣😂😄😆😅😀😃😄 Best joke I have heard today. A novice determining how much power is needed for which plane.

 

[Sudha]

Is it operational? Or is your socialist brain hallucinating?

Kaveri is underpowered for modern fighters. Let Bharat forge or godrej analyse it to upgrade the core.

 

[Sudha]

thoguh the defaulter is GE American chamchas here are ready to jump on HAL.

What non sense! It was a wrong decision by HAL to go for an aero engine for which the production line was closed. There will be a huge issue of supply lines. Blaming OEM for this faux pass of HAL is hilarious. Off course another aspect is the unreliability of the US government which is incapable of having long term holistic view of its own interest.

 

[Sudha]

Indian intellectuals expect high-tech products when substandard output of the educational institutions lines up for peon jobs everywhere with the PhD degrees

WOW!! What a low view you have of yourself as an Indian. Do not forget ISRO, BDL, BEML, BEL,.... are also efficient DPSUs. So you think they reached there by getting educated in foreign nations?

 

[Sudha]

HAL can Integrate Airframes But what about Engines.............??? GE should have started Ramping up production once they signed the deal in 2021 (Three years ago) Production is depended on Orders IAF wants another 97 Tejas MK1A. There is good Business For GE. Its up too GE how they deal it now. wait & see september 2024 deadline From Last 10 months they are Giving new deadlines add one more to that.Testing Time for Indo-US Defence partnership.a very hard Time India is passing Through.

GE has become like HAL, pushing deadlines into unknown time in future (or just following the political instructions). "Sahavasa dosham". BTW why did HAL short list an aero engine the production line for which was shutdown?

 

[Sudha]

SK FA50 jet getting same GE404 engine on time. From where this engine coming from any idea? recently KA50 got export orders too. you meant they have got this engines before giving orders?

Already mentioned political reasons are also there. But what I said about HAL is also true, need better decision makers.