US Shows Renewed Interest in Joint Venture for AMCA Engine

India and the United States had previously initiated discussions on co-developing an engine for AMCA program. These talks had stalled due to disagreements over technology transfer. However, last month, during the second meeting of iCET between NSA Ajit Doval and Jake Sullivan, US officials have expressed renewed enthusiasm for the collaboration, signaling a willingness to reconsider India's demands for greater technology sharing.

US officials have privately conveyed that American engine manufacturers like General Electric (GE) and Pratt & Whitney (P&W) possess unparalleled expertise in next-generation fighter jet engine development. They have indicated a readiness to fulfill many of India's earlier requirements, even those previously seen as difficult to secure congressional approval for.

Currently efforts are underway to obtain clearance for an 80% technology transfer of the F-414 engines for local manufacturing by HAL. There are indications that the US might be open to exceeding this 80% mark specifically for the AMCA program.

However, DRDO Chief has previously reiterated the aspiration for a cutting-edge engine, rejecting mere upgrades to existing 4th-generation engines. The goal is to develop a brand-new engine from the ground up, incorporating 6th-generation technology. This engine would not only power the 5th-generation AMCA but also serve future platforms, ensuring its longevity for the next 40-50 years.

Currently, French company Safran is reportedly leading the race with an offer for a new engine for India's AMCA program. The renewed US interest adds a new dimension to this competition, signaling a potential shift in the landscape of India's defence partnerships.

 

[wallisk]

Not in 5 years Foreign partner for Engine development should b Finalise by Next 6 months , it takes atleast 8 to 10 years for development of Aero-Engine.

Kaveri2.0 with Bharath Forge-Midhani-GTRE jv have started to develop a BRAND NEW Kaveri2.0 90 KN max. wet thrusts engines already going on now... But all ppl says that fighter jet engines testing and maturity requires at least MINIMUM 10 years!

 

[wallisk]

First we should integrate the Kaveri in MK1 and make the Kaveri 2 with 90Kn wet trust levels

GTX Kaver1.0 is a FAILURE and IAF have rejected it now! Kavery Dry 45 KN engines are tested and certified but it will be of no use in Tejas as only 45KN thrusts maximum dude.

 

[wallisk]

US never share advanced tech.

Yes, current GEF414 deal is just okay. But better sign on Safran and/or RR for AMCA engines really!

 

[sanket]

You will basically fund fcas engine and french do not have a reputation of honoring ToT,

Terxton (american business jet making company) had to abandon their plan for next generation of citation jet because they designed aircraft arround safran silvercrest engine. They were not able to develop a small size hi-bypass turbofan against promised deadlines as french engineers are retiring early and new machinists are lazy. Mind you Silvercrest engine was smaller (1/4 size and capability of CFM Leap or PW1000 series!) arround 80KN.

Do you think they are capable of developing a high thrust low bypass engine for fifth gen jet?

GE-414 EPE is already has Thrust developed to 116kN for F-18. why they will with minor R&D will hand over 100% ToT for India. India want 100% IPR with Eco-system of 100% Engine components should b manufactured in India with Indian vendors .they r Guarding GE-414 ToT for remaining 20% how they will do 100% ToT in AMCA Engine .GE-414 is oudated Tech and u think they will do 100% ToT for AMCA Engine of 110 kN Thrust with 20% more potentional with out major upgrade.

 

[Prodyut]

The US is keen because they will get raw data on the engine which is actually quite good ( which is possibly why it was stopped in 2008). GTRE does not need technology but Management which is easily available with teh Pvt. sector. We will get cheaper fasteer results by letting Godrej/Bharat Forge to lead teh programme with GTRE following..

 

[wallisk]

GE-414 EPE is already has Thrust developed to 116kN for F-18. why they will with minor R&D will hand over 100% ToT for India. India want 100% IPR with Eco-system of 100% Engine components should b manufactured in India with Indian vendors .they r Guarding GE-414 ToT for remaining 20% how they will do 100% ToT in AMCA Engine .GE-414 is oudated Tech and u think they will do 100% ToT for AMCA Engine of 110 kN Thrust with 20% more potentional with out major upgrade.

They will never give 100% ToT for GEF414... Even Russia not giving us make by HAL RD33MK3-OVT TVC nozzles Sea Wasp engines deal at all!

 

[Akshat]

BRITAIN needs money, we need knowledge. Among these 3 only safran has no experience in developing 5th gen engine. RR and GE were a contender for f35 5th gen engine, and they made prototypes but ultimately lost to pratt and whitney. This should be a priority for a govt that wants atmanirbharata yet nothing is happening.

Actually, among the 3 RR is the only one that hasn’t developed any (fighter) engine on its own at least in the last4 decades. Even in the F35 prototype, their contribution had nothing to do with the engine but with the vertical lift system. For something as old as the Ador engine also they have to import the compressors.

 

[Akshat]

You will basically fund fcas engine and french do not have a reputation of honoring ToT,

Terxton (american business jet making company) had to abandon their plan for next generation of citation jet because they designed aircraft arround safran silvercrest engine. They were not able to develop a small size hi-bypass turbofan against promised deadlines as french engineers are retiring early and new machinists are lazy. Mind you Silvercrest engine was smaller (1/4 size and capability of CFM Leap or PW1000 series!) arround 80KN.

Do you think they are capable of developing a high thrust low bypass engine for fifth gen jet?

On the contrary, French have done an amazing job in ToT. They have basically been the role model in this area.

And RR hasn’t developed any engine (fighter jet) in the last 4 decades on their own.

 

[Akshat]

Govt should go for UK (Rolls) or US(GE). Both are still salty since their engine didnt get picked for F35 and F22, might not get picked for NGAD (6th gen) fighter.

They are most popular in the export market and due to economies of scale it will be cheaper also than going for French Safran Deal. Only advantage Safran has is that the process will be very smooth, france wont do any shenanigans and it has said it will give 100% ToT(very very sceptical)

But RR itself doesn’t have the requisite tech. For at least last 4 decades they haven’t developed or manufactured any engine 100%. And it’s not that they had to do it as part of consortium. Even for Adour engines they had to import compressors from France.

GE is the best bet. Only issue is that they are unlikely to give 100% Tot with IPR. And they already have requisite engines so there will be no co-development. It will basically be a tech transfer with IPR, if at all.

 

[Akshat]

The US is keen because they will get raw data on the engine which is actually quite good ( which is possibly why it was stopped in 2008). GTRE does not need technology but Management which is easily available with teh Pvt. sector. We will get cheaper fasteer results by letting Godrej/Bharat Forge to lead teh programme with GTRE following..

Oh you mean the engine which ended up blowing the FTB in Russia and is still not usable? No thanks. If anything, we should kick GTRE out completely and make a consortium of private companies and give them all the research material so that they know what is not to be done.

 

[alpha numeric]

On the contrary, French have done an amazing job in ToT. They have basically been the role model in this area.

And RR hasn’t developed any engine (fighter jet) in the last 4 decades on their own.

They do an amazing job at ToT when the tech is transferred TO them. RR part is fair.

 

[Sandeep]

So far India have made a deal with Safran last year to develop a brand new 5th generation engine for the AMCA. India will get 100% of the technology, manufacture 100% of it in India and own the IPR. This is a SIGNED deal. This deal will also allow us to learn how to develop it, gain the knowledge of the science, technology, engineering and machinery that’s needed to make it all.

Offers from Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney, GE, MKT etc were rejected because of the disagreements on the amount of ToT, amount of local production, price range, old technology used or because of changing geopolitics and politics around the world. Despite all of that they are still trying to make a deal with India by changing their offers but it’s no use.

This is a deal made last year when the PM went to France to make the jet engine deal, manufacture 3 more Kalvari submarines and the indigenous medium weight IMRH helicopter engine that’s under development.

 

[Avada kedavra]

But the f414 deal has not been concluded right?
There is still ambiguity if the englishmen will honor their part of the deal.

 

[Ankit]

DRDO even after so many decades still begging for better technology from other countries... Such beggers never able to do any thing concret on ground and articals like this are only to fool tax payers. A drastic change in reserch and new technology development policy by govt can make some difference otherwise current "haalat" only predict that we keep reading such articals even after 20-30 years.

 

[Akshat]

They do an amazing job at ToT when the tech is transferred TO them. RR part is fair.

Not as per our MoD

 

[PKPRS]

India should go with European Engine Giants i.e Safran or RR, cant Trust US & Development Cost is more . Boeing already failed in Fulfilling offset clause to set up Test facilities for Aero-Engine .

Cutting edge and France are opposite poles, Safran still has old 4th gen engine , even for their 5th gen jet FCAS they are getting the engine from German MTU, So either Saturn, GE or Pratt &Whitney or MTU o r RR should help as they all have stealth engine’s.

 

[PKPRS]

But Safran has all the key to develop what India want in AMCA Engine.Even French have FCAS Project they too want Engine for that.Question is who is Reliable partner who can develop Tech after work share agreement and share that ToT with IPR & Project cost should not over Run.

What key they have, France themselves depend on Germany for their 5th gen FCAS engine, they only have keys to develop 4th gen engine.

 

[PKPRS]

GE-414 EPE is already has Thrust developed to 116kN for F-18. why they will with minor R&D will hand over 100% ToT for India. India want 100% IPR with Eco-system of 100% Engine components should b manufactured in India with Indian vendors .they r Guarding GE-414 ToT for remaining 20% how they will do 100% ToT in AMCA Engine .GE-414 is oudated Tech and u think they will do 100% ToT for AMCA Engine of 110 kN Thrust with 20% more potentional with out major upgrade.

But GE F414 is not a stealth engine, it will emit lot of IR, izdeiye-30 stealth engine would be good.

 

[PKPRS]

On the contrary, French have done an amazing job in ToT. They have basically been the role model in this area.

And RR hasn’t developed any engine (fighter jet) in the last 4 decades on their own.

Not on engine, they let GTRE run merry go round everytime, that’s the reason we are talking to GE and RR today.

 

[Pad UwU]

This is quite good opportunity for us😸
the Biden government is wooing us with so many perks with some strings attach in it. Not bad for joining the western democracies if we can speed up development than go soloing all abd stressup ourselves in too many failure and delays 😺...
but I'm more okay with the Europeans especially if RR's or Safran can make it... Sadly Safran is being leglock by its government of not giving us or offering us a true 100% engine ToT's.... Unlike the fatso Brit's RR is interested of securing a deal with 100% ToT's and IP ownership of a indianize version that they offering 😺