Why India Didn't Reverse Engineered Sukhoi Su-30MKI Like China did with Su-30MKK

India and China, both significant military powers in Asia, have taken contrasting paths in their acquisition and utilization of the Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jet program.

While China opted to reverse-engineer the less advanced Su-30MKK variant to develop its own indigenous versions, India pursued a different approach focused on technology transfer and long-term self-reliance.

India's decision to engage in a complex technology transfer agreement with Russia for the Su-30MKI program aimed to achieve more than just the assembly of the aircraft domestically. It sought to gain the knowledge and expertise necessary to design and develop future generations of fighter jets indigenously. This strategic move aligns with India's ambition to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.

Conversely, China's approach prioritised a faster acquisition of the Su-30MKK variant and cost savings through reverse engineering. While this allowed for the rapid development of indigenous variants like the J-11 and J-16, it may not have resulted in a complete transfer of knowledge or the ability to design entirely new aircraft.

The contrasting approaches of India and China to the Su-30MKI program underscore their differing strategic priorities. China's focus on faster acquisition and cost savings contrasts with India's emphasis on technology transfer and long-term self-reliance. The long-term success of each approach remains to be seen.

India's experience gained through the Su-30MKI program is now being leveraged in ambitious programs like the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which aims to develop a 5th generation fighter jet indigenously.

 

[RalphRearden]

Another kiddo with zero knowledge is spreading lies 🤦

Wait a Minute, why would HAL get to know about the aerodynamics , radar and avionics ? HAL job was to assemble the jets in india , Hal is only a integrator...

It's not HAL job to make any avionics or any structure. There are DPSU labs that does R&D in all the fields..

Regarding Engine of Su-30Mki , still after 25 years of production they haven't given us 2/3rd TOT on AL-31F . Airforce rejected AL-41 integration on Su-30 as HAL with the amount of TOT is now making better optimised engine for Indian conditions ( haven't you read this on articles when DAC sanctioned Su-30 upgrade program)

Regarding Dhruv , Germany's Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) were contracted in 1984 as a design consultant and collaborative partner.

Before calling me names, lets try and get facts right...i run a pretty successfuly mid-size defence focsed fund...so i know how defence companies make money.

Second, HAL remains a screw driver shop in terms of capabilities for manufacturing any assembled plane. They have been doing it for 50 years and they can very well do it for next 50 without learning anything.

HAL has a pathetic production efficiency compared to any established aircraft manufacturer gloablly. Go and read about Embraer to understand how companies actually become succesful. A perfect case study of similar company way ahead of the babus of HAL in a similar/shorter time frame

Dhruv's designs were initially worked with MBB but it was the French who helped HAL to for the last 20 years...isloating vibrations, improving flight envelope, improving engine, hingeless blades, list goes on and on. HAL had no clue why Eucadorian choppers crashed...cos you cant expect screwdriver assemblers to have an idea about avionics.

The crashes of Mirages is the same story. Pathetic maitainence of Migs is another, inable to upgrade Mig-27s or JAguar in a proper time frame is another, the list goes on and on....they are the Air India under Govt.

Granted Russia did not allow full ToT to HAL for Su, but did HAL incorprate even a single learning from SU "Aseembling" into any thing worthwhile.....go and read annual reports of HAL and show me a message from any Director stating the gains to Tejas

LAstly, HAL exists because its a monopoly. It cant compete with anyone without massive order assurances or subsidies. Not a single foreign air force has purchased anything worthwhile from HAL nor will ever do.

You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. So lets not argue on this. Peace.

 

[jazz]

Ha ha as simple as that people talk bad about china that they copy and all. But it is a subject of engineering that reverse engineer which is not a joke or like easy as a copy paste command of computer. It needs commitment, talent and correct tools and equipment to does that and will and support from all level of management. You know country like ours where red tapism on its highest level. Clerks in government office laugh at any such kind of effort. It's not easy to understand china they are not fully communist but having mixed structure of capitalism and socialism. They are realy a race who will go ahead in every aspect not only a niche tech but also socialism. We Indian need to learn from that, their commitment to cause a real commitment and discipline. Survival of the fittest. Darwin said that Chinese doing all to become fit. We also need to catch that discipline, will and pure commitment.

 

[WL C]

Nonsensical. China reversed engineered the su27 to produce the first j11a many years ago. Subsequently, the j11B had almost all systems and subsystems changed to domestic versions. The j16 also has very little in common with the Sukhois anymore. Even the engines, AESA radar, weapons system, software, hydraulics etc are fully domestic. That requires not simply reverse engineering. For example, Chinese AESA radars are far superior to Russia's which does not even use it in most sukhois, including the su30mki. Indians seem to be confused about the term ToT. As if anyone would ever just transfer all of their tech and allow you to just stop paying and even export. Lol

 

[amerjit johal]

India's self-righteous attitude is proving to be very costly for the country. In the field of pharmaceuticals, India has successfully launched numerous drugs, solidifying its position as a global pharmacy.

A global pharmacy for low cost generic drugs.
Has any Indian pharma actually developed a bloockbuster.
As usual low hanging fruit.

 

[Tanishq Bafila]

Before calling me names, lets try and get facts right...i run a pretty successfuly mid-size defence focsed fund...so i know how defence companies make money.

Second, HAL remains a screw driver shop in terms of capabilities for manufacturing any assembled plane. They have been doing it for 50 years and they can very well do it for next 50 without learning anything.

HAL has a pathetic production efficiency compared to any established aircraft manufacturer gloablly. Go and read about Embraer to understand how companies actually become succesful. A perfect case study of similar company way ahead of the babus of HAL in a similar/shorter time frame

Dhruv's designs were initially worked with MBB but it was the French who helped HAL to for the last 20 years...isloating vibrations, improving flight envelope, improving engine, hingeless blades, list goes on and on. HAL had no clue why Eucadorian choppers crashed...cos you cant expect screwdriver assemblers to have an idea about avionics.

The crashes of Mirages is the same story. Pathetic maitainence of Migs is another, inable to upgrade Mig-27s or JAguar in a proper time frame is another, the list goes on and on....they are the Air India under Govt.

Granted Russia did not allow full ToT to HAL for Su, but did HAL incorprate even a single learning from SU "Aseembling" into any thing worthwhile.....go and read annual reports of HAL and show me a message from any Director stating the gains to Tejas

LAstly, HAL exists because its a monopoly. It cant compete with anyone without massive order assurances or subsidies. Not a single foreign air force has purchased anything worthwhile from HAL nor will ever do.

You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. So lets not argue on this. Peace.

I am not here to argue .

HAL is an inefficient Organisation but it comes under Defence Ministry right ? Has any government including the current one has done anything to make it more efficient, has Airforce every tried to make improvements in the ecosystem of HAL ?

Regarding the work-culture of HAL , yes I am also not an admirer of their past work.. But did any PSU improved themselves in last 40 years ? Did any government tried to make these efficient, it very easy to blame a worker , but noone dares to question the boss , who has the authority and power to make changes..

We have just started making systems on your own , So saying that Any country won't buy anything from HAL isn't justified. Geopolitical Situation places a important role in signing defence deal , i believe you also know it...

We had no proper infrastructure in the past , but things changed so much in last 3 years ( post-covid ) , Private players are coming forward and doing a great job..

I have seen your previous comments also you call HAL employee babus and what not.. Let me remind you they work for the government , And the government & Airforce aren't making changes in the HAL & other DPSUs... Who is stoping GOI to remove Reservation from DPSUs , we want an efficient organisation but with people have limited qualities.. ( But it is a votebank politics )

NDA was brave enough to start Agniveer for the nation benefit but the timing of the scheme just after covid , and service time were subjects that could have thoroughly discussed with All three services , as they were not happy with Many terms.

I hope from the next time you just don't blame a employee only and Ask relevant questions to that person or organisation who sits at the top and hold jurisdiction and authority over all other DPSUs

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

In Year 2004 CCP Govt came begging to UPA govt for joint LCA fbw s/w developments.

This is intresting to know. Any legitimate source of your claim

 

[Snapper Snap]

Truth is not a single country wanted to give India engine technology at all. Russia never gave us despite begging..

 

[Balasubramaniam_Orchid]

Wish our DPSU’s knew how to, we also license built atleast 10 foreign engines, did we copy any of those engines.

Copying & reproducing such complicated piece of technology like an fighter aircraft or aero engines, requires distinctly a different set of re-engineering skills, which China has been able to do for quite some time now...

 

[PKPRS]

Agree, stupid decisions by us has resulted in poor industrial capacity…

Indian’s are not as mechanically as inclined as the Germans, most of the machinery used by by the West and Russia were copied from Germany tech after WW2, we are weak in reverse engineering as well.

 

[Aloo]

A global pharmacy for low cost generic drugs.
Has any Indian pharma actually developed a bloockbuster.
As usual low hanging fruit.

Typical Rant.

SU 30 production is also just manufacturing other's technology. Low hanging fruit too.

Also India's drug policy doesn't protect formula but it protects method. To copy a drug, a company has to devise it's own method which is extremely challenging.

An anecdote: It's like knowing formula of Single Crystal Blade but still figuring out how to forge, weld, temper, right temperature, composition and also develop any tech required mid process.

 

[Aloo]

Blame the incompetence of Indian R&D sector, talking about principles won't get you anywhere...

How do you know R&D capacity is to be blamed and not policy and politics ?

Also how can you blame respecting IPR ? I support China's approach, wish we did same, but not violating IPR is not bad.

 

[vikrant rao]

Because of what China did the Russians stopped sharing critical technology with them for over 20 years until.... Idiotic West pushed both together and now, Russia the only country with cutting edge functional hypersonic tech is being begged by China for ToT but it still hasn't accepted atleast, we don't know publicly yet if they have in fact given it to them? Chinese hypersonics can hit static targets with accuracy but not moving targets like a ship on the sea. Chinese reverse engineering and stealing of IPR then exporting to Pak totally pissed off the Russians bec then from Pak it goes to the Americans. Even today, Chinese reverse engineered Russian aircraft perform poorly at Tibetan airfields and high altitudes resulting in engine seizures, burn out etc. The Chinese are smart and they have made rapid progress and will solve this in due course but it still shows how critical tech cannot simply be copied! India is on the right path and bec it respects IPRs countries like Russia, France, Israel trust India with ToT agreements. It's slow but better in the long run.

 

[Raja Raja Cholan]

Copying & reproducing such complicated piece of technology like an fighter aircraft or aero engines, requires distinctly a different set of re-engineering skills, which China has been able to do for quite some time now...

Exactly. But I always asked myself this nagging question. Why India did not choose to be smart like the chinese and strive to be proactive in taking the lead. India not necessarily has to steal technology through backdoor tactics like how the chinese stole vital technologies from the Americans. Indian engineers had the opportunity to learn from experience in the assembly of Su 30 local production but it didn't happen, a missed opportunity.

Sadly one Indian scientist working in American establishment gave the chinese vital technology secrets. The chinese were hungry to produce fighter aircrafts with advanced technology so they pursued aggressively in acquiring advanced technology secrets by hook or crook. That is the chinese character, their mentality always wants to be leader and the winner in every thing to position themselves as superior people. It is this mentality they employ at border to be ahead of the Indian armed forces.

 

[MANISH TOLIA]

Fact is that Government entity was involved and private sector was bared from Defence production .

Now as private sector gets involved efficency and new technology will get involved faster

 

[MANISH TOLIA]

Indian’s are not as mechanically as inclined as the Germans, most of the machinery used by by the West and Russia were copied from Germany tech after WW2, we are weak in reverse engineering as well.

Sir

We are mechanically developed .

Infact our bikes are exported to many countries .

Defence was not open to private sector .

Now we are developing by lips and bounds

 

[amerjit johal]

This is intresting to know. Any legitimate source of your claim

I think I've read something to that effect, don't recall the source though.

 

[alpha numeric]

Sir

We are mechanically developed .

Infact our bikes are exported to many countries .

Defence was not open to private sector .

Now we are developing by lips and bounds

Building a motorcycle is not the same as building an aircraft let alone it's engine. Having an open private sector is useless unless they don't have a customer base to absorb their produce. Defense has been open since 2000s

 

[alpha numeric]

Exactly. But I always asked myself this nagging question. Why India did not choose to be smart like the chinese and strive to be proactive in taking the lead. India not necessarily has to steal technology through backdoor tactics like how the chinese stole vital technologies from the Americans. Indian engineers had the opportunity to learn from experience in the assembly of Su 30 local production but it didn't happen, a missed opportunity.

Sadly one Indian scientist working in American establishment gave the chinese vital technology secrets. The chinese were hungry to produce fighter aircrafts with advanced technology so they pursued aggressively in acquiring advanced technology secrets by hook or crook. That is the chinese character, their mentality always wants to be leader and the winner in every thing to position themselves as superior people. It is this mentality they employ at border to be ahead of the Indian armed forces.

Buddy China is a country that cares about outcome. We care about human rights, freedom of speech, labor rights and environmental rights even if that means staying poor, incompetent and useless. The Chinese had a scorched earth policy when it came to industrial development. We had/have a self righteous one, Nandigram, POSCO(Korean steel giant), Singur and now the Foxconn married woman issue. We don't think, we feel and we whine and we vote and we repeat that cycle of petty populist stupidity and that is where we have a competitive advantage. Democracy was the worst thing to happen to India since we gained independence form those british trash.

 

[Hita Techi]

Because Chinese leadership is focused and plan for the long term meanwhile our leadership always busy with short term and kickbacks

 

[Hegde Deepak]

Lol ! The real fact is that Indian DPSU's are simply incapable of and totally incompetent for reverse engineering. The worst thing is that we want to hide behind statements like" we don't want to violate IPR!", to hide our incompetence !!