Opinion Why India Should Not Choose French Safran for AMCA 110kN Engine? Taking Lessons from Previous Kaveri-M88 Collaboration for Tejas

Why India Should Not Choose French Safran for AMCA 110kN Engine? Taking Lessons from Previous Kaveri-M88 Collaboration for Tejas


India's pursuit of a domestically produced 110kN engine for its Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has brought it to the negotiating table with French engine manufacturer Safran.

However, past experiences and technological disparities raise serious questions about the wisdom of this partnership, particularly concerning technology transfer.

A former employee of India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the organization responsible for developing indigenous engine technology, recently voiced strong concerns about the ongoing negotiations, characterizing the discussions as unproductive.

The ex-official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, warned that France has a history of making ambitious promises regarding technology transfer but failing to deliver fully. This pattern, the source suggests, could put India's fifth-generation fighter program at risk.

The official cited a previous attempt in the early 2010s to co-develop a hybrid engine for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program. This involved combining elements of India's Kaveri engine with Safran's M88 engine, which powers the Rafale fighter jet.

The technology transfer offered by the French at the time was reportedly minimal, focusing on less critical components. Safran, the official stated, insisted on retaining intellectual property rights (IPR) for the core of the M88-2 engine, the most crucial part for performance. This disagreement ultimately led GTRE to abandon the collaboration.

The proposed M88-Kaveri hybrid was also limited to 83-85kN of thrust. This was insufficient for the Tejas Mk2's 98kN thrust requirement, and suitable only for Tejas Mk1.

Moreover, Safran required a minimum order of 300 engines, a number that did not align with the Indian Air Force's (IAF) needs, which at one point included studying a "universal" engine for both Tejas Mk1 and Mk2.

Another point of contention raised was a "technical audit" of the Kaveri engine, reportedly conducted by a French team as part of the 2016 Rafale fighter jet deal. While the French team cleared the Kaveri for flight testing, the former GTRE employee downplayed the significance of their contribution.

The source claimed that GTRE had already resolved most of the major issues of Kaveri, including problems within the engine's core, before the audit. Subsequent collaboration with General Electric (GE) of the United States, according to the official, proved more beneficial in addressing remaining technical hurdles.

These past experiences are particularly relevant as India considers Safran as a partner for the AMCA's 110kN engine, a crucial component for the stealth fighter's performance. The former GTRE insider expressed skepticism about France's current proposals, highlighting a significant technological gap.

The official pointed out that Safran had been unwilling to share technology for a fourth-generation engine (the M88) previously, and now proposes co-development of a fifth-generation engine, a technology they have not yet developed themselves.

Indeed, while countries like the United States (with the F135 engine for the F-35 and ongoing adaptive engine programs) and Russia (with the Izdeliye 30 for the Su-57) have operational or developing fifth-generation engines, France's current offering, the M88, is a design dating back to the 1980s with a maximum thrust of around 75kN (with afterburner).

This disparity, the former official argued, casts doubt on France's ability to contribute meaningfully to the AMCA engine project. The successful development of a powerful and reliable engine is crucial for the AMCA to meet its performance goals, and any shortcomings in technology transfer could significantly impede India's progress towards achieving self-reliance in defense technology.
 
You cannot blame others, getting narrative of the copied, inspired, or collaborated industrial production continuously in the country lacking R&D efforts since the independence.
 
USA is also not the best option. RR is a good option, but we need to properly make the contract because they are also a Western nation.
 
Most thinking people are wondering how the Chinese have made huge strides on all platforms despite their earlier setbacks. At one point, the Chinese were behind India, but today, they are so advanced in all fields that they are competing with the United States.

The saddest part is that India, despite its huge educated masses, can't or is unable to hold a candle to the Chinese. The Chinese are a nation of born criminals. They steal from every country they set foot in. Their research is minimal. Because they are thieves, they don't have to do any major research; they are very good at stealing secrets, which they have utilized to the full.

India, on the other hand, is bogged down with uncooperative states, citizens with low morals, a rape culture, and is divided to the core by religious beliefs, and is basically corrupt. A few examples of waste of time and money are the space projects. India is literally the "bikaris" of weapons technology.

They have not made any progress in all aspects of aircraft production; the Chinese have managed to get their act together to get a few planes out in a few years. Why is this? Perhaps they are deep-rooted in their loyalty to their own country. India is struggling to find a decent maintenance crew for their planes.

Consider the Israeli Air Force: although they are technically a very advanced country, their R&D is world-famous. But they are not interested in developing a new plane to take to the air. Perhaps India should closely observe the Israeli way of doing things.

India and Israel face the same situation: they are surrounded by enemies. Israel bought American planes and modified them to their own standards. They have utilized the F-15EXs to their maximum capability.

India should look for assistance from the Israelis when it comes to intelligence services, weapons design, special ops capability, aircraft requirements, the navy, the army, and equipment, since time is running out for India, as the Chinese are building a huge invasion force in the Himalayas.

The Bangladesh military has become Islamic and they are seeking to attack India, perhaps allowing the Pakistanis to place their long-range missiles in Bangladesh. The Pakistani forces are well prepared for a long war with India, so India has to act quickly.
 
Why not leave aside this bullshit and tie up with the Japanese? Also, encourage them to co-develop defense engines... and I am a million times sure that the Japanese can develop a far more reliable and cheaper engine rather than these Westerners.
 
No company, regardless of which country it is from, will give you true ToT. The sooner you understand this, the better it is.
 
Why not leave aside this bullshit and tie up with the Japanese? Also, encourage them to co-develop defense engines... and I am a million times sure that the Japanese can develop a far more reliable and cheaper engine rather than these Westerners.
Japan has problems sharing advanced technology as well but are probably even worse.
 
We should never trust French people. At the same time, before we tie up, pour billions into RR coffers, we should ask for their Eurojet EJ200 core tech transfer to GTRE, and also, we should get a high-altitude test facility built in India.
 
Most thinking people are wondering how the Chinese have made huge strides on all platforms despite their earlier setbacks. At one point, the Chinese were behind India, but today, they are so advanced in all fields that they are competing with the United States.

The saddest part is that India, despite its huge educated masses, can't or is unable to hold a candle to the Chinese. The Chinese are a nation of born criminals. They steal from every country they set foot in. Their research is minimal. Because they are thieves, they don't have to do any major research; they are very good at stealing secrets, which they have utilized to the full.

India, on the other hand, is bogged down with uncooperative states, citizens with low morals, a rape culture, and is divided to the core by religious beliefs, and is basically corrupt. A few examples of waste of time and money are the space projects. India is literally the "bikaris" of weapons technology.

They have not made any progress in all aspects of aircraft production; the Chinese have managed to get their act together to get a few planes out in a few years. Why is this? Perhaps they are deep-rooted in their loyalty to their own country. India is struggling to find a decent maintenance crew for their planes.

Consider the Israeli Air Force: although they are technically a very advanced country, their R&D is world-famous. But they are not interested in developing a new plane to take to the air. Perhaps India should closely observe the Israeli way of doing things.

India and Israel face the same situation: they are surrounded by enemies. Israel bought American planes and modified them to their own standards. They have utilized the F-15EXs to their maximum capability.

India should look for assistance from the Israelis when it comes to intelligence services, weapons design, special ops capability, aircraft requirements, the navy, the army, and equipment, since time is running out for India, as the Chinese are building a huge invasion force in the Himalayas.

The Bangladesh military has become Islamic and they are seeking to attack India, perhaps allowing the Pakistanis to place their long-range missiles in Bangladesh. The Pakistani forces are well prepared for a long war with India, so India has to act quickly.
The biggest problem is the lack of a strong education program that is devoid of any genuine Hinduisms beliefs, culture, understanding, values, aims, goals and purpose in life.

Also every state has their own education system which gives mismatched education, qualifications, opportunities and development. States are very uncooperative unless they are from the same party.

Another big problem is the political system. There should only be a B J P one party in charge autocracy rather than a mixture of incompetent parties and politicians who change developments priorities, follow their own party independent agenda that suits them and come up with different economic models and policies which all fail without having a autocracy to follow development policies.
 
No company, regardless of which country it is from, will give you true ToT. The sooner you understand this, the better it is.
Absolutely. It is funny reading all the comments. If you want to be A1, then you have to do R&D. It will work out cheaper for Bharat now since the cost of living isn't as high as in Western nations. Only the powers that be should realize it. Including academia and the private sector in high-tech research will give the required results faster.
 
I couldn't agree more with this guy's testimony on the French credentials and credibility as trustworthy partners or even doing business with them. All this while, it has been my thoughts too that GTRE has not learned their hard lessons from their previous experience; this is an unbelievable blunder in the making. This is precisely why the French have the impression that the Indians are desperate, and they used their sweet talk to get their way with our gullible defence industry executives, to their terms and conditions. I have been reading with much displeasure, why are our GTRE guys still wanting to tag along with the French as if there are no other options available? All this while, I have been reading that RR is the frontrunner to clinch the deal, but why still hanging around someone offering GTRE an unfavourable deal? For heaven's sake, we should not be very dependent on French products all the time; diversify your search for better deals. RR technology is much better than the French. If at all we are going for 114 MRFA, it should not be Rafale anymore. They are taking the Indians for a ride to milk our money.
 
European nations do not have any know-how of how to build fighter jet engines with power > 90 kN (afterburner) or > 60 kN (dry thrust).

In contrast, the AL-31 engine in the SU-30 MKI has a dry thrust of ~75 kN and an afterburner thrust of ~125 kN.

So, we are trying to make an expensive deal with someone who himself does not know how to do that job.
 
It's high time the govt and DRDO should listen to public opinion particularly domain experts outside DRDO while taking decisions. Who knows, who are all showing partiality and has fascination for a particular supplier? India should go with those, who give full ToT without any rider. Eliminate whoever has taken india for a ride
 
Finally, a good article from Defence.in. France & Russia always made profit from India from defence deals, but the fault is in our defence procurement policy & funds allocation towards the research sector.

It's obvious that no country will give you full TOT when it comes to jet engine technology.
As opposed to US and RR who haven't done the same or even worse????

Also, Russia has developed equipment with us plenty of times with complete or crucial TOT, which assisted in local manufacturing of T90, Su30MKI, BrahMos, etc. The military-technical cooperation between the two goes way deeper than this.

Any nation or company would make profits from defence deals; that's the whole point of having a company or product in the first place. Isn't it?? Just like India makes a lot of profit from BrahMos sales to the Philippines. What's that supposed to prove?

Last time I checked, the only reason India was able to effectively fight off the Pakistani army and a possible US/UK invasion was because of the Russian supply of weapons and their timely support/intervention.

Did the US say yes or no to the weapon sales when we needed it the most to safeguard our lands????

"Funds allocation to the research sector"....... This is the most clueless line ever!

And last, Russia is offering full TOT for the AL51 engine with a local production setup and help with AMCA development.
 
This is the point I have been trying to make. France is a known backstabber. Them having the lead in negotiations once again proves the babus have no common sense.

But I am surprised to hear that GE helped out more than France. That should be impossible.
 
Whichever company that we choose we should have very strong contracts that are legally binding.

In that contract it should state that we receive 100% of the technology, manufacture it entirely in India using Indian raw materials, we hold the IPR, we can sell to other countries.

So far GE have clearly stated that they won’t give 100% of the technology which means that they are out. So far only RR and Safran have committed to everything that India wants and if it’s in the contract then there is no turning back for them. As this will be a joint venture then they will also hold the IPR as they would have invested in this project as well which is fine but there would have to naturally be some consensus first or veto before they or we decide to sell any parts, components, technology or even the education on how they developed the engine before they try and sell anything to do with the engine.

Safran seems to be the ideal choice as RR and the UK are far too close with the USA and they could impose sanctions or delay anything to do with the engine we want to build. France is also an independent country with isn’t prone to blindly follow the USA on their whims. Also this article is incorrect. France said that they will help India as a consultant and to give advice on fixing some of the problems with the Kaveri engine. This wasn’t a legally binding agreement but it was simply part of France offsets that they owed. The main problem with the Kaveri engine was the core as it couldn’t produce the amount of thrust we needed. The only option was to install a new core completely and France offered whatever technology they had but this engine was used by themselves and they wouldn’t give away the best and only technology that they developed and use as it could compromise their own national security and any advantage they have over their enemy.

However the help they did give was a bit more than the peripheral help and advice. Due to the advice, experience and help we managed to stabilise the engine, improved reliability, improved performance, decreased fuel consumption, improved fuel with distance ratio, improved consistent thrust levels, increased the thrust level, extend the lifespan and after making all of those changes we managed to finally develop a engine that passed high altitude trials which up until then every engine failed. This now allows us to use it for our stealth UCAV Ghatak drone and we are also developing the Kaveri Marine engine which is making good progress and will power our naval ships in future.
 
I think time has changed.Renegotiate with GE.
We are getting GE F404 for TejasMk1.
We are going for local production of F414 for Tejas Mk2 and AMCA prototypes.
It will be wise to collaborate with GE for a 110kn version of this engine in partnership and IP rights.
 
In my opinion, Rolls Royce is a better choice. France is just trying to milk us; we can see that in their every action. I read on some website last week that they have protested and are angry over the AIP technology transfer from ThyssenKrupp. This is very bad, and we should keep France away from all future deals.
 
True. They were never interested in joining with us. They are joining with German forces, advanced engines, and fighters. Their motive is always grabbing money from India by keeping critical tech. That is happening in HAL Dhruva.
Yes, Dhruv is falling from the sky, and HAL never bothered to check the issue, except making tall claims and blaming the pilots and maintenance crew. Earlier, HAL said the issue was with the control stick, and it was aluminium, and they changed it with iron, but still, it is falling from the sky. Now what excuse they come up with, only God alone knows. First of all, HAL needs to accept that there are issues and start genuinely putting effort into sorting out the issues with these helicopters, even forcing the French to help us, as they took money from us to transfer the French helicopter engine technology. Also, I believe that the Shakti engine, developed with French help, is the issue. They deliberately did something mischievous so that we do not master this technology, and no one would buy it from us, and they made money from us, just made us fools.
 
Russia being a trusted partner since 1950s, we should go with their 5G engine for which they are ready with TOT.
 
I don't believe that, GE has helped in resolving our engine issues. And where is this ex-GTRE employee currently working? It is possible that the French are not ready to share TOT, in which case they seem to have forgotten the AUKUS deal. Geopolitics plays a much bigger role than only business. It is in the interest of both our countries to work together. Else, if they try to play hard ball, then they will lose big time.
 
There is a saying, when it comes to TOT, they demand more money for the "drawing" than the product itself. The French are extremely stingy when it comes to negotiations. One promise they kept is that whatever they sold to us was not sold to Pakistan and China.
Attack Helicopters of China have french engines. And Pakistan can't afford french tech.
 

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