Opinion Why India Should Not Choose French Safran for AMCA 110kN Engine? Taking Lessons from Previous Kaveri-M88 Collaboration for Tejas

Why India Should Not Choose French Safran for AMCA 110kN Engine? Taking Lessons from Previous Kaveri-M88 Collaboration for Tejas


India's pursuit of a domestically produced 110kN engine for its Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has brought it to the negotiating table with French engine manufacturer Safran.

However, past experiences and technological disparities raise serious questions about the wisdom of this partnership, particularly concerning technology transfer.

A former employee of India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the organization responsible for developing indigenous engine technology, recently voiced strong concerns about the ongoing negotiations, characterizing the discussions as unproductive.

The ex-official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, warned that France has a history of making ambitious promises regarding technology transfer but failing to deliver fully. This pattern, the source suggests, could put India's fifth-generation fighter program at risk.

The official cited a previous attempt in the early 2010s to co-develop a hybrid engine for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program. This involved combining elements of India's Kaveri engine with Safran's M88 engine, which powers the Rafale fighter jet.

The technology transfer offered by the French at the time was reportedly minimal, focusing on less critical components. Safran, the official stated, insisted on retaining intellectual property rights (IPR) for the core of the M88-2 engine, the most crucial part for performance. This disagreement ultimately led GTRE to abandon the collaboration.

The proposed M88-Kaveri hybrid was also limited to 83-85kN of thrust. This was insufficient for the Tejas Mk2's 98kN thrust requirement, and suitable only for Tejas Mk1.

Moreover, Safran required a minimum order of 300 engines, a number that did not align with the Indian Air Force's (IAF) needs, which at one point included studying a "universal" engine for both Tejas Mk1 and Mk2.

Another point of contention raised was a "technical audit" of the Kaveri engine, reportedly conducted by a French team as part of the 2016 Rafale fighter jet deal. While the French team cleared the Kaveri for flight testing, the former GTRE employee downplayed the significance of their contribution.

The source claimed that GTRE had already resolved most of the major issues of Kaveri, including problems within the engine's core, before the audit. Subsequent collaboration with General Electric (GE) of the United States, according to the official, proved more beneficial in addressing remaining technical hurdles.

These past experiences are particularly relevant as India considers Safran as a partner for the AMCA's 110kN engine, a crucial component for the stealth fighter's performance. The former GTRE insider expressed skepticism about France's current proposals, highlighting a significant technological gap.

The official pointed out that Safran had been unwilling to share technology for a fourth-generation engine (the M88) previously, and now proposes co-development of a fifth-generation engine, a technology they have not yet developed themselves.

Indeed, while countries like the United States (with the F135 engine for the F-35 and ongoing adaptive engine programs) and Russia (with the Izdeliye 30 for the Su-57) have operational or developing fifth-generation engines, France's current offering, the M88, is a design dating back to the 1980s with a maximum thrust of around 75kN (with afterburner).

This disparity, the former official argued, casts doubt on France's ability to contribute meaningfully to the AMCA engine project. The successful development of a powerful and reliable engine is crucial for the AMCA to meet its performance goals, and any shortcomings in technology transfer could significantly impede India's progress towards achieving self-reliance in defense technology.
 
Don't pay till they deliver substantially.
I think GE will finally give everything.
GE with ceramic core will update F414 to 125 KN and this will be the game changer.
All four Safran,GE ,Rolls Royce and Russians will not give what india is asking for since that will create their own competitor since manufacturing costs of india will be far lesser than them
 
Good, that's why I said before RR is front runner while the article was saying Safran is front runner. It was a contradictory article. GTRE is doing very nice & hope they will develop Kaveri-2 without foreign help to even produce 90 kN to 100 kN. Second, if Kaveri 2 surpasses above 90 kN, then its weight is going to increase too, over 1100 kg.
 
For once, the GTRE bumpkins are speaking some sense, and they seem to have evaluated who potentially could help us objectively achieve a 5th gen aero engine; Don't buy the bullshit from Safran or any other vendors who don't value contractual agreements. Keep them at bay and protect the IP of our research.
 
Don't pay till they deliver substantially.
I think GE will finally give everything.
GE with ceramic core will update F414 to 125 KN and this will be the game changer.
All four Safran,GE ,Rolls Royce and Russians will not give what india is asking for since that will create their own competitor since manufacturing costs of india will be far lesser than them
GE will give but not intellectual property rights but technology will be reliable
 
Better to Go with 3 vendor concepts
Use 3 Sources as Leverage who ever share More Give order More
Simple So much of Documentation for Validation will eat Time and energy
 
The mentality of the French charlatans is clear in the fact that they are now cursing Germany for giving Submarine TOT, which will eat their business. France doesn't honour contractual agreements; don't give them another chance. I hope the MoD nincompoops pay heed to GTRE and don't force them to go with Safran.
 
100% agree. The French are selfish when it comes to ToT. They themselves already acknowledged the reason behind it, which is fear of new competition.
 
True. They were never interested in joining with us. They are joining with German forces, advanced engines, and fighters. Their motive is always grabbing money from India by keeping critical tech. That is happening in HAL Dhruva.
 
Also, MDL not received core tech for Scorpene, so DRDO depend on Naval Group for fitting air-independent propulsion.
 
Same thing happened in the submarine deal where the French over-promised and under-delivered. There are multiple articles from independent journalists that we did not receive the promised tech as per the agreement. It is not just France; this has been our experience with all countries. We should realize that no one is going to give us all the tech with all the IPR we want, as it would be akin to shooting one's own foot. We are the golden goose for foreign defense companies, and by giving us the promised tech, the goose would be dead. Bureaucracy should give the extra money that they give to defense companies in the name of technology transfer to DRDO or create a national mission so that private-public collaboration can develop these technologies.
 
Better we go with GE for AMCA engine but with IP Rights or ink deal with Rolls Royce to jointly develop 125+ KN engine and last option to go with Russia to seek 100% for AMCA engine !
 
There is a saying, when it comes to TOT, they demand more money for the "drawing" than the product itself. The French are extremely stingy when it comes to negotiations. One promise they kept is that whatever they sold to us was not sold to Pakistan and China.
 
Good, that's why I said before RR is front runner while the article was saying Safran is front runner. It was a contradictory article. GTRE is doing very nice & hope they will develop Kaveri-2 without foreign help to even produce 90 kN to 100 kN. Second, if Kaveri 2 surpasses above 90 kN, then its weight is going to increase too, over 1100 kg.
Exactly, Rolls-Royce is the best option to go with.
 
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry worth his salt knows that NO country, absolutely NO country, will part with IP for what is basically a national treasure.

Why just French, even the Russians did not part with any worthwhile jet engine technologies.

We would be fools to believe an international partnership will land us a working jet engine for AMCA.

The entire premise of foreign consultation and collaboration is to get us to just the perimeter of mastering a decent jet engine. But even the government knows that the journey to the last mile towards obtaining a completely indigenous jet engine would be an exercise in "Ekla chalo re".
 
Whether we like it or not, GOI will select GE. Although RR should be preferred, they are also helping Turkey with KAAN's engine.
 
We have options of a 110 kN stealth 5th generation engine for AMCA as a joint development with GE of USA or a Russian 117S.
 
India's obsession with foreign stuff and technology doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. India has been beaten up by many countries, still good sense has not prevailed upon this country.

Every other country wants to restrict India on inventions and development. They will try every possible method to thwart its progress.

The question before everyone is why India can't test the Kaveri engine on old test aircraft platforms in real-life situations and improve further?

Every other person in power knows about the foreign play, but they want to look the other way. Don't trust anyone. It's a matter of time. If France doesn't agree to full ToT as a first condition, just keep them away.
 
France gives third-generation obsolete technology at exorbitant prices, like the Mirage upgrade, which cannot fire Meteor and does not have the AESA radar, still just the avionics upgrade, costing 50 million per plane. The plane cannot defend itself. Please don't ever think of buying Greek or Qatari Mirages.
 
Finally, a good article from Defence.in. France & Russia always made profit from India from defence deals, but the fault is in our defence procurement policy & funds allocation towards the research sector.

It's obvious that no country will give you full TOT when it comes to jet engine technology.
 
France will use our funding to learn the technology and then create their IPR. This is what happened with Kaveri and M88. In the name of developing the Kaveri engine, they improved on their M88 engine with our funds. They made fools of GTRE and GOI. GTRE should have been smart enough to snap their brain. I have been working for private companies for the last 28 years. Indians don't want to talk to the point or get to the point. They make a lot of farting talk.

Take the example of Mirage; France charged billions of dollars for the upgrade of Mirage fighters. The same is going to happen with Taporee Rafale F3, which is due for an upgrade.
 
This anonymous GTRE employee, BTW if he were anywhere as passionate about his job as many startups in India which have been making miniature jet engines for use in small drones, we would have had a working GTRE Kaveri years ago for LCA Tejas and we would have been using them in the Mk-1As by now.

To listen to the struggles that many such startups are having to face in India, tune into a recent podcast with DG Propulsion hosted by Greeb Scientist.
 
Better we go with GE for AMCA engine but with IP Rights or ink deal with Rolls Royce to jointly develop 125+ KN engine and last option to go with Russia to seek 100% for AMCA engine !
Don't know if the entry of Trump changes the attitude of GE but right now GE doesn't seem to be reliable..
Sarfran and RR need not be considered as they don't have the 5th generation Engine know how but only proposed to co- develop.
If not GE, then Russia is the only option as it comes with ToT
 

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