Why Tejas Mk1A Should Consider EuroJet EJ200 or Snecma M88 Engine Amidst GE Delays

While the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk1A program isn't actively seeking a new engine to replace the current GE F-404, potential delays or future considerations might warrant evaluating alternative options.

Two Western engines stand out as potential contenders: the EuroJet EJ200 and the Snecma M88. Let's compare them based on key performance metrics crucial for a light combat aircraft.

Performance Showdown​

• Thrust-to-Weight Ratio (TWR): The M88 holds a slight advantage with a TWR of 8.40:1 compared to the EJ200's 9.17:1, potentially translating to slightly faster initial acceleration.
• Thrust-to-Drag Ratio (TDR): The EJ200 boasts a superior TDR of 23.13 N/cm2 compared to the M88's 19.42 N/cm2, leading to better fuel efficiency and overall performance.
• Fuel Consumption: The M88-2 emerges as the more fuel-efficient option in both dry thrust and afterburner modes, which could extend operational ranges and reduce costs.
• Bypass Ratio: Both engines have low bypass ratios favoring supercruise capability. However, the EJ200's slightly higher ratio might offer a slight edge in maneuverability at lower speeds.
• Maintainability: The EJ200 excels with fewer compressor stages and a modular design, promising easier and potentially cheaper maintenance.
• Infrared Signature: While the EJ200 has a slightly lower inlet temperature, the M88 incorporates additional cooling channels and nozzle designs to minimize its IR signature, potentially offering a tactical advantage by reducing detection.

Wet Thrust Comparison​

• The EJ200 offers a wet thrust of 90kN, surpassing the GE F404's 84kN.
• The M88's wet thrust of 75kN falls short of both the GE F404 and even the older F-404 engines used in earlier prototypes, generating 78kN.

Choosing the Right Fit​

The ideal choice hinges on priorities. The EJ200 excels in peak fuel efficiency, maintainability, higher thrust-to-drag ratio, and a superior thrust-to-weight ratio. The M88-2 shines with its potentially lower IR signature and decent fuel efficiency.

Ultimately, if fuel efficiency and a reduced IR signature are paramount, the M88-2 remains a strong contender. However, if the focus is on enhanced thrust-to-drag and thrust-to-weight ratios, coupled with ease of maintenance and reliability, the EJ200 emerges as the clear frontrunner.

 

[Dredd]

kaveri Engine likely to b integrated on one of the Tejas . which is genrating 73 kN

Putting money on gtre is like putting fire on it... they should sack all the useless from GTRE.. kaveri with 73 kn is useless.. they need to develop clean sheet jet engine for atleast 100kn to replace f404 during MLU

 

[Dredd]

A working Kaveri engine will make every engine maker to open a manufacturing or assembly line india. And they will much better deal particularly to stop the Kaveri for further developments

It's a dream that even GTRE scientists don't see.

 

[Dredd]

well establised have not even delivered single engine of the 99 GE-404 Contracted in 2021 August which supposed to b delivered by August 2023.even after 10 months GE is giving deadlines and i am reading Headlin of sept 2024 one Engine per month will b delivered why not GE ramped up production capacity ..............???After siging the deal in August 2021.

Let see if hal can catch up aircraft delivery with engine delivery. Do you think they can deliver 16 aircraft next year ?

 

[AK S]

Seems you have come after watching subodh propaganda video

Well, which part is propoganda. I called out yours. HAL has not received any F404 engine and venerable GE has missed at least 3 deadlines. Read HT.

HAL has plenty F404 from old lot and yet not delivering - so convenient!

 

[AK S]

I have never said anything against mk1a.. it's hal who is responsible for mess and they should own it.. the contract had the penalty clause for delivery delay. It's time iaf should invoke that clause and put heavy penalties.

In this case, HAL do have the responsibility as the overall owner. This doesn't wash away the repeated non-delivery by GE. Also in G2G deals, not sure how much HAL can do. The apprehension is that this is payback for continued economic and legacy defence ties to Russia. Unfortunately, Russia is not Iran - our ship wont sail, fighters wont fly and our tanks wont roll if we support US against Russia. US needs to understand that. Besides we cant allow Russia to be completely in Chinese orbit. Our cost would be really steep.

These are trying times of Indo-US defence cooperation. Let's wait for Sep.

Well you did. Criticism is fair though and would prefer to take it on the chin. MK1A is shedding about a ton. Wait and watch how it replaces Mirage and MiG 29s.

 

[Dredd]

Well, which part is propoganda. I called out yours. HAL has not received any F404 engine and venerable GE has missed at least 3 deadlines. Read HT.

HAL has plenty F404 from old lot and yet not delivering - so convenient!

Why don't hal put a caveat that they will deliver the jet 6 month after engine delivery . HAL has not raised this issue but psu sympathiser like you are spreading this propaganda.

 

[AK S]

dont run from ur comment u said GE-404 is under power / Lower Thrust second penalties will not happen it was Again last minitues demand from IAF & Testing needs Time for any further new addition, HAL is doing without charging xtra Just to Remind u 35 Rafale were delivered without Indian specific Enhancement and it was integrated within one year after delivery HAL is doing First not after delivery of Tejas MK1A.

So true. IAF was actually very generous with Dassault. We gave them five years to implement all India Specific Enhancements. For nearly a brand new plane, HAL got 3 years and managed the first without any engine delivery from GE. Yet here folks complaining against HAL so that GE looks little better.

In the worst case also, few months here and there for a DPSU like HAL is not a big deal. If you compare it with Dassault timeline of 5 years to implement minor enhancements, HAL has been head and shoulders above them in case of MK1A. French and to some extent American lobby were expecting HAL to fail and now they are jealous, anxious and full of hatred. They would bash HAL irrespective of the topic of discussion.

On the positive side, given these delays, IAF went for software upgrades and that needed fresh testing and certifications - HAL should have asked for separate timeline and billing. It would have kept everything neat and clean and free of controversy. Hope HAL and IAF are both learning.

 

[AK S]

Tejas mk2 when was proposed tell me share source credible one u r contradicting .one time u say it is under power now u say it turnout to b good one

Tejas MK1 is underpowered to some extent. First cut will be over-designed - it happens all the time. But MK1A has shed closed a ton and added few new ones. The point is, since design is ours, we'd keep improving.

Dredd is flip-flopping. Leave him. Just counter the false narrative that he is trying to build

 

[AK S]

Putting money on gtre is like putting fire on it... they should sack all the useless from GTRE.. kaveri with 73 kn is useless.. they need to develop clean sheet jet engine for atleast 100kn to replace f404 during MLU

Who do you suggest we should give money to? Safran wanted 600m just to integrate their M88 core in Kaveri. We know the result. US or for that matter any country wont transfer any meaningful tech till we are almost there. IAF doesn't like Russian engines. Private entities wont put risk capital into engine development. Within India, it's only GTRE who has whatever we have. Better funding, revamping and direct PMO control can help.

BTW, we have spent very little on Kaveri about 300m in today's value. For comparison, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. At least 25-50 times more funding would be needed. Our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back!

M88 offer 75KN! So 73KN is not bad. But we are still not there. Fund (over $1B or more) and years are needed.

 

[AK S]

its wise to invest billion after all 660 Engines will b required further for Tejas MK1A , Lesson has to learn from this for not to depend on US Our Beloved tejas has to Fly in Air .it will take another 7 years to develop 90 kN Thrust kaveri Engine i always said Fine tunning of kaveri is on

Fully agree. Wish Govt had the similar views.

 

[AK S]

It's a dream that even GTRE scientists don't see.

Well Indian people do. Unfortunately for you, GTRE is close to 73KN in Indian conditions ... that too with paltry funding of $300m. Lobbyist and propagandist won't want us to develop our own. But we will. Uncle Sam is actually nudging us in the right direction.

 

[AK S]

M88 is unfit for Tejas IA, Period.

Agreed. It would require redesign and uprating.

 

[Dredd]

Well Indian people do. Unfortunately for you, GTRE is close to 73KN in Indian conditions ... that too with paltry funding of $300m. Lobbyist and propagandist won't want us to develop our own. But we will. Uncle Sam is actually nudging us in the right direction.

Do you really believe their claim, 73kn is on paper. Kavery hasn't been tested with afterburner

 

[Man-ju]

Biggest thing never talked about are the dimensions of these engines. It's not some LED bulb that you take out and replace from socket. First the dimensions should match which means either airframe needs to be modified or engine manufacturer needs to be convinced to create a sub variant that fits in the fighter(which will cost a ton given what we have seen in Jaguar Engine case with Honeywell). Even after that there are a lot of tests and certifications involved which will take almost a decade of not more. So getting a alternative engine is junk idea, it's better to convince uncle Sam to provide us F404 on priority else start working on Kaveri. I still see some fault on behalf of a professional manufacturing entity like HAL which haven't anticipated IAF orders along with global uncertainty in supply chain post COVID and ordered surplus engines at its own cost(end of the day they are accountable),as if they had no money and wanted GOI to pay for them to place ad-hoc orders. Anyways it's too late to discus now.

 

[Dredd]

Who do you suggest we should give money to? Safran wanted 600m just to integrate their M88 core in Kaveri. We know the result. US or for that matter any country wont transfer any meaningful tech till we are almost there. IAF doesn't like Russian engines. Private entities wont put risk capital into engine development. Within India, it's only GTRE who has whatever we have. Better funding, revamping and direct PMO control can help.

BTW, we have spent very little on Kaveri about 300m in today's value. For comparison, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. At least 25-50 times more funding would be needed. Our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back!

M88 offer 75KN! So 73KN is not bad. But we are still not there. Fund (over $1B or more) and years are needed.

300 million in current exchange but $1 billion when it was provided which makes it $3billion in current value

It's not about what's offered. Tejas mk1 need min 83kn and ideally above 90kn

 

[Dredd]

So true. IAF was actually very generous with Dassault. We gave them five years to implement all India Specific Enhancements. For nearly a brand new plane, HAL got 3 years and managed the first without any engine delivery from GE. Yet here folks complaining against HAL so that GE looks little better.

In the worst case also, few months here and there for a DPSU like HAL is not a big deal. If you compare it with Dassault timeline of 5 years to implement minor enhancements, HAL has been head and shoulders above them in case of MK1A. French and to some extent American lobby were expecting HAL to fail and now they are jealous, anxious and full of hatred. They would bash HAL irrespective of the topic of discussion.

On the positive side, given these delays, IAF went for software upgrades and that needed fresh testing and certifications - HAL should have asked for separate timeline and billing. It would have kept everything neat and clean and free of controversy. Hope HAL and IAF are both learning.

Tejas Mk1A was proposed in 2016.. what were HAL doing for 5 years, 2021 deal was signed they had 5 years to work on the jet. It's not like they started work only after contract was signed in 2021. Problem is not Tejas Mk1a , it's HAL and its lethargic and unaccountable culture.

 

[Sandeep]

India has no choice but to stick with the F404 as the size, dimensions, level of thrust power, fuel efficiency and easy maintenance have all been taken into consideration on the Tejas jet. We have to wait for GE to supply the engines as we have no choice.

Changing the engines is complicated and we would have to make changes to the jets structure and internal layout. Also negotiating a new engine deal will take years to complete so by then GE would have resolved their supply chain issues.

India have to now make a deal to manufacture the engines in India as there will be a large requirement for them. On average we will need at least 600-800 engines throughout a 30-40 year time frame for those 200 Tejas MK1A jets.

 

[Devasahayam]

Can include RD-33 in the choices, as it has pretty well same problems as M-88 (wrong dimensions, underpowered)...but we're actually licence-manufacturing them already at Koraput.

 

[Pad UwU]

Ej200 us winner on this comparison nuff said😹😹😹

 

[Pad UwU]

Agreed. It would require redesign and uprating.

Better to get the upgraded version of ej200 that has 120kn of wet thrust

 

[R. Singh]

Picture is displayed of Tejas- AF-MK-II ! Any how, French engine makers and GTRE should upgrade M-88 engine to generate 90 KN thrust and ADA should make necessary changes in engine bay to fit French and Eurojet engine ! Eurojet makers could succumb to US pressure and delay or stop engine tech buy France is trusted strategic partner though it is costly venture ! So if powerful Snecma M-88-3 ( 90+KN ) is developed it will be good !Otherwise Rolls Royce Eurojet is best as second option for 97 fighters ordered in second lot !

 

[ambuj]

No new engine integration. This Integration will take atleast 3-4 years to complete and certified. Till then Ge 404 issues will be fixed. Also it's better to start integrating and certifying Kaveri instead of any other engine for mid life upgrades.

 

[Bhishma]

US did warn us "not to take their friendship for granted". well, this is how it looks like when they decide to throw a tantrum. start the process for GE alts. US is not a reliable partner. We really dont have any leverage with the US. We cannot buy their loyalty through dollars.

 

[Dredd]

we will get neither engines, at-least EJ200 is slightly compact, if we don't get US engines we have to forget about EU engines too.

it's not easy to replace engine, you have to redesign the engine intake as well, which may change its aerodynamics

 

[PKPRS]

it's not easy to replace engine, you have to redesign the engine intake as well, which may change its aerodynamics

Better than shutting down Tejas program, it will take some time to change few things and testing the aerodynamics, advantage is EJ200 is more compact than GE or SNecma, bigger size engine would have more problem.