Why Tejas Mk1A Should Consider EuroJet EJ200 or Snecma M88 Engine Amidst GE Delays

While the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk1A program isn't actively seeking a new engine to replace the current GE F-404, potential delays or future considerations might warrant evaluating alternative options.

Two Western engines stand out as potential contenders: the EuroJet EJ200 and the Snecma M88. Let's compare them based on key performance metrics crucial for a light combat aircraft.

Performance Showdown​

• Thrust-to-Weight Ratio (TWR): The M88 holds a slight advantage with a TWR of 8.40:1 compared to the EJ200's 9.17:1, potentially translating to slightly faster initial acceleration.
• Thrust-to-Drag Ratio (TDR): The EJ200 boasts a superior TDR of 23.13 N/cm2 compared to the M88's 19.42 N/cm2, leading to better fuel efficiency and overall performance.
• Fuel Consumption: The M88-2 emerges as the more fuel-efficient option in both dry thrust and afterburner modes, which could extend operational ranges and reduce costs.
• Bypass Ratio: Both engines have low bypass ratios favoring supercruise capability. However, the EJ200's slightly higher ratio might offer a slight edge in maneuverability at lower speeds.
• Maintainability: The EJ200 excels with fewer compressor stages and a modular design, promising easier and potentially cheaper maintenance.
• Infrared Signature: While the EJ200 has a slightly lower inlet temperature, the M88 incorporates additional cooling channels and nozzle designs to minimize its IR signature, potentially offering a tactical advantage by reducing detection.

Wet Thrust Comparison​

• The EJ200 offers a wet thrust of 90kN, surpassing the GE F404's 84kN.
• The M88's wet thrust of 75kN falls short of both the GE F404 and even the older F-404 engines used in earlier prototypes, generating 78kN.

Choosing the Right Fit​

The ideal choice hinges on priorities. The EJ200 excels in peak fuel efficiency, maintainability, higher thrust-to-drag ratio, and a superior thrust-to-weight ratio. The M88-2 shines with its potentially lower IR signature and decent fuel efficiency.

Ultimately, if fuel efficiency and a reduced IR signature are paramount, the M88-2 remains a strong contender. However, if the focus is on enhanced thrust-to-drag and thrust-to-weight ratios, coupled with ease of maintenance and reliability, the EJ200 emerges as the clear frontrunner.

 

[PKPRS]

kaveri Engine likely to b integrated on one of the Tejas . which is genrating 73 kN

Only 50Kn dry thrust, engine is too bulky and heavy, they are still working on the After Burner

 

[Dredd]

Almost all of 75 F494 are already used for the development and production of MK1. Remaining (in single digit) were handed over to IAF. IAF loaned 2 of their reserve engine for Mk1A. Of the 75, 5 were older version (78-79KN). Raising it in defence of GE or worse to denigrate HAL is essentially a propaganda.

So far about 58 engines were used in TD, PV, LSP, Tejas-N and MK1. A good number touching two digits were used in data collection and are no longer usable - their ground running hour would be more than their useful life. Whatever were left (less than 10 … my estimate would be 7 or so) been handed over to IAF. So earlier 75 F404 all done.

None of this 75 were anyways meant for Mk1A. 99 F404 IN-20 needed for Mk1A were placed immediately after order of 83 Mk1A in Feb 2021 and none has been delivered. In fact non-delivery was flagged about a year back.

Now fun fact for you - These engines were G2G deals through FMS route and it’s truly beyond HAL. Though HAL is still accountable, MoFA and MoD should have put their weight behind it at least a year before. Who knows they might have and yet at least 3 deadlines have been missed by venerable GE. May not be a coincidence. But lessons learnt have been applied in case of F414 - local production is a precondition. Though it did slow down Mk2 but still a better trade-off.

Another fun fact - our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back! Funding was paltry to start with … about 300m in today’s value. BTW, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. Hope lessons are learnt.

Defence cooperation with US is never gonna be easy.

Seems you have come after watching subodh propaganda video

 

[Dredd]

Joke of the year lOl

people believe easily to base less comment ,but for truth it is very difficult Reality is 75 Engine deal of 404 is for Tejas mk1 & 99 404 for Tejas MK1A.your breakup is Full of dream assumption i dont want to exposed let see how many believe it

Just tell where did the 35 engine spent. Each engine has 6000 hours of life. Tejas has done total test sorties of approx 6500hours till date

 

[sanket]

Just tell where did the 35 engine spent. Each engine has 6000 hours of life. Tejas has done total test sorties of approx 6500hours till date

Pototypes, LSP , Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A how they are Flying just answer

 

[Dredd]

Then why IAF is ordering additional 97 Tejas MK1A ..........??? IAF needs cerification From u Ha Ha Ha ..................................

I have never said anything against mk1a.. it's hal who is responsible for mess and they should own it.. the contract had the penalty clause for delivery delay. It's time iaf should invoke that clause and put heavy penalties.

 

[sanket]

I have never said anything against mk1a.. it's hal who is responsible for mess and they should own it.. the contract had the penalty clause for delivery delay. It's time iaf should invoke that clause and put heavy penalties.

dont run from ur comment u said GE-404 is under power / Lower Thrust second penalties will not happen it was Again last minitues demand from IAF & Testing needs Time for any further new addition, HAL is doing without charging xtra Just to Remind u 35 Rafale were delivered without Indian specific Enhancement and it was integrated within one year after delivery HAL is doing First not after delivery of Tejas MK1A.

 

[Dredd]

Raising the old supply of 75 engines are mere propaganda to denigrate HAL so that venerable GE will shine out and their incompetence is covered. It’s so easy to blame and shame a DPSU. People will accept it so easily … or so they think. French and US lobby are working overtime. French lobby love to hate and badmouth HAL.

Yes.. as per you, HAL has always delivers on time and with best quality.. we are still getting issues with Dhruv even after 30 years of its development. Did any one question HAL when the updated tejas mk1 crashed.. it was just updated by HAL.

HAL should be accountable for even one engine that they prluechased from taxpayers money.

 

[Dredd]

dont run from ur comment u said GE-404 is under power / Lower Thrust second penalties will not happen it was Again last minitues demand from IAF & Testing needs Time for any further new addition, HAL is doing without charging xtra Just to Remind u 35 Rafale were delivered without Indian specific Enhancement and it was integrated within one year after delivery HAL is doing First not after delivery of Tejas MK1A.

Yes.. tell me why airforce didn't want tejas mk1.. and why tejas mk2 was proposed?
Tejas mk1a was a compromise between iaf and hal brokered by mr. Parrikar but it turned out a good one.

 

[Dredd]

Pototypes, LSP , Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A how they are Flying just answer

Are all of them flying ? They were developed ,flown and improved. Few of them are used to test avionics etc. I have counted them as well in.

 

[sanket]

Are all of them flying ? They were developed ,flown and improved. Few of them are used to test avionics etc. I have counted them as well in.

yes all of them are flying 40 Tejas (IOC+FOC) + Prototypes ,LSP Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A Now calculate & tell .....???

 

[Dredd]

Joke of the year lOl

people believe easily to base less comment ,but for truth it is very difficult Reality is 75 Engine deal of 404 is for Tejas mk1 & 99 404 for Tejas MK1A.your breakup is Full of dream assumption i dont want to exposed let see how many believe it

Agree that 99 are meant for 83 tejas. But delay there is not the reason for delay delivery of tejas. If that was the case then hal could have just said that first jet will be delivered 3 to 6 month after engine delivery. They promised march timeline till February. And then june in March.

 

[Dredd]

yes all of them are flying 40 Tejas (IOC+FOC) + Prototypes ,LSP Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A Now calculate & tell .....???

No.. first prototype is even retired. Get your facts sorted.

 

[sanket]

Agree that 99 are meant for 83 tejas. But delay there is not the reason for delay delivery of tejas. If that was the case then hal could have just said that first jet will be delivered 3 to 6 month after engine delivery. They promised march timeline till February. And then june in March.

For ur info HAL will deliver after proper Testing & Certification bcoz again IAF have demanded last minite changes HAL may delivers by End of dec 2024 its GE who failed to deliver single Engine in last 10 months how HAL will deliver Further Tejas MK1A ,

 

[sanket]

Yes.. tell me why airforce didn't want tejas mk1.. and why tejas mk2 was proposed?
Tejas mk1a was a compromise between iaf and hal brokered by mr. Parrikar but it turned out a good one.

Tejas mk2 when was proposed tell me share source credible one u r contradicting .one time u say it is under power now u say it turnout to b good one

 

[Dredd]

First prototype was Flying without Engine .............???? which engine was used

All prototypes variants are retired. Their engine is being used elsewhere.. you don't throw engine if they have life.

 

[sanket]

No.. first prototype is even retired. Get your facts sorted.

First prototype was Flying without Engine .............???? which engine was used

 

[Dredd]

Tejas mk2 when was proposed tell me share source credible one u r contradicting .one time u say it is under power now u say it turnout to b good one

Seems you are from covid gen... please go and check tejas history.

 

[sanket]

All prototypes variants are retired. Their engine is being used elsewhere.. you don't throw engine if they have life.

share source where it has been used

 

[Dredd]

For ur info HAL will deliver after proper Testing & Certification bcoz again IAF have demanded last minite changes HAL may delivers by End of dec 2024 its GE who failed to deliver single Engine in last 10 months how HAL will deliver Further Tejas MK1A ,

Yes as if hal has delivered everything thing else on time. Foc trainer delivery is also not complete.. find out excuse for that as well. IJT is not yet complete and iaf is force to train on 70s Kiran trainers.

 

[sanket]

Yes as if hal has delivered everything thing else on time. Foc trainer delivery is also not complete.. find out excuse for that as well. IJT is not yet complete and iaf is force to train on 70s Kiran trainers.

well establised have not even delivered single engine of the 99 GE-404 Contracted in 2021 August which supposed to b delivered by August 2023.even after 10 months GE is giving deadlines and i am reading Headlin of sept 2024 one Engine per month will b delivered why not GE ramped up production capacity ..............???After siging the deal in August 2021.

 

[Dredd]

kaveri Engine likely to b integrated on one of the Tejas . which is genrating 73 kN

Putting money on gtre is like putting fire on it... they should sack all the useless from GTRE.. kaveri with 73 kn is useless.. they need to develop clean sheet jet engine for atleast 100kn to replace f404 during MLU

 

[Dredd]

A working Kaveri engine will make every engine maker to open a manufacturing or assembly line india. And they will much better deal particularly to stop the Kaveri for further developments

It's a dream that even GTRE scientists don't see.

 

[Dredd]

well establised have not even delivered single engine of the 99 GE-404 Contracted in 2021 August which supposed to b delivered by August 2023.even after 10 months GE is giving deadlines and i am reading Headlin of sept 2024 one Engine per month will b delivered why not GE ramped up production capacity ..............???After siging the deal in August 2021.

Let see if hal can catch up aircraft delivery with engine delivery. Do you think they can deliver 16 aircraft next year ?

 

[AK S]

Seems you have come after watching subodh propaganda video

Well, which part is propoganda. I called out yours. HAL has not received any F404 engine and venerable GE has missed at least 3 deadlines. Read HT.

HAL has plenty F404 from old lot and yet not delivering - so convenient!

 

[AK S]

I have never said anything against mk1a.. it's hal who is responsible for mess and they should own it.. the contract had the penalty clause for delivery delay. It's time iaf should invoke that clause and put heavy penalties.

In this case, HAL do have the responsibility as the overall owner. This doesn't wash away the repeated non-delivery by GE. Also in G2G deals, not sure how much HAL can do. The apprehension is that this is payback for continued economic and legacy defence ties to Russia. Unfortunately, Russia is not Iran - our ship wont sail, fighters wont fly and our tanks wont roll if we support US against Russia. US needs to understand that. Besides we cant allow Russia to be completely in Chinese orbit. Our cost would be really steep.

These are trying times of Indo-US defence cooperation. Let's wait for Sep.

Well you did. Criticism is fair though and would prefer to take it on the chin. MK1A is shedding about a ton. Wait and watch how it replaces Mirage and MiG 29s.

 

[Dredd]

Well, which part is propoganda. I called out yours. HAL has not received any F404 engine and venerable GE has missed at least 3 deadlines. Read HT.

HAL has plenty F404 from old lot and yet not delivering - so convenient!

Why don't hal put a caveat that they will deliver the jet 6 month after engine delivery . HAL has not raised this issue but psu sympathiser like you are spreading this propaganda.

 

[AK S]

dont run from ur comment u said GE-404 is under power / Lower Thrust second penalties will not happen it was Again last minitues demand from IAF & Testing needs Time for any further new addition, HAL is doing without charging xtra Just to Remind u 35 Rafale were delivered without Indian specific Enhancement and it was integrated within one year after delivery HAL is doing First not after delivery of Tejas MK1A.

So true. IAF was actually very generous with Dassault. We gave them five years to implement all India Specific Enhancements. For nearly a brand new plane, HAL got 3 years and managed the first without any engine delivery from GE. Yet here folks complaining against HAL so that GE looks little better.

In the worst case also, few months here and there for a DPSU like HAL is not a big deal. If you compare it with Dassault timeline of 5 years to implement minor enhancements, HAL has been head and shoulders above them in case of MK1A. French and to some extent American lobby were expecting HAL to fail and now they are jealous, anxious and full of hatred. They would bash HAL irrespective of the topic of discussion.

On the positive side, given these delays, IAF went for software upgrades and that needed fresh testing and certifications - HAL should have asked for separate timeline and billing. It would have kept everything neat and clean and free of controversy. Hope HAL and IAF are both learning.

 

[AK S]

Tejas mk2 when was proposed tell me share source credible one u r contradicting .one time u say it is under power now u say it turnout to b good one

Tejas MK1 is underpowered to some extent. First cut will be over-designed - it happens all the time. But MK1A has shed closed a ton and added few new ones. The point is, since design is ours, we'd keep improving.

Dredd is flip-flopping. Leave him. Just counter the false narrative that he is trying to build

 

[AK S]

Putting money on gtre is like putting fire on it... they should sack all the useless from GTRE.. kaveri with 73 kn is useless.. they need to develop clean sheet jet engine for atleast 100kn to replace f404 during MLU

Who do you suggest we should give money to? Safran wanted 600m just to integrate their M88 core in Kaveri. We know the result. US or for that matter any country wont transfer any meaningful tech till we are almost there. IAF doesn't like Russian engines. Private entities wont put risk capital into engine development. Within India, it's only GTRE who has whatever we have. Better funding, revamping and direct PMO control can help.

BTW, we have spent very little on Kaveri about 300m in today's value. For comparison, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. At least 25-50 times more funding would be needed. Our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back!

M88 offer 75KN! So 73KN is not bad. But we are still not there. Fund (over $1B or more) and years are needed.

 

[AK S]

its wise to invest billion after all 660 Engines will b required further for Tejas MK1A , Lesson has to learn from this for not to depend on US Our Beloved tejas has to Fly in Air .it will take another 7 years to develop 90 kN Thrust kaveri Engine i always said Fine tunning of kaveri is on

Fully agree. Wish Govt had the similar views.