France Opens Doors to Nuclear Submarine Collaboration, India Eyes Pump-Jet Technology

BREST, FRANCE - In a landmark development in Indo-French defense ties, Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) General Anil Chauhan was given an in-depth briefing on France's advanced nuclear submarine capabilities during his visit to the French naval base in Brest. The briefing highlighted the potential for collaboration between the two nations, particularly in the transfer of non-nuclear submarine technology, which could significantly boost India's indigenous defense capabilities.

A highlight of the defense dialogue was the exploration of sharing pump-jet propulsion technology, a key component of France's Le Triomphant-class ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs). This advanced propulsion system, combined with pressurized water K15 nuclear reactors and electric drive, offers submarines enhanced maneuverability, stealth, and operational endurance – attributes that could significantly benefit India's own nuclear-powered conventionally armed attack submarine (SSN) program.

While India's SSN program is still in the developmental stage, France's expertise in pump-jet propulsion presents a unique opportunity for synergistic collaboration. By integrating this technology into its submarines, India could not only enhance their operational capabilities but also bolster its strategic deterrence posture in the Indian Ocean region.

General Chauhan's visit to France underscores the growing strategic partnership between the two nations, particularly in the defense sector. Both countries share common concerns over maritime security in the Indo-Pacific and are committed to deepening their bilateral defense cooperation to address these challenges effectively.

The exchange of submarine technology and expertise between India and France holds immense potential for both nations. India could benefit significantly from France's vast experience in submarine design, construction, and operation, while France could gain a foothold in the burgeoning Indian defense market.

Although any potential collaboration on nuclear submarine technology is a complex and sensitive issue, the willingness of both countries to explore such a partnership signifies a new level of trust and cooperation in their bilateral relationship.

General Chauhan's visit to France marks a crucial step in this direction, laying the groundwork for deeper defense cooperation and strategic alignment between the two nations. As both countries continue to navigate the complexities of the 21st-century security landscape, their partnership promises to be a stabilizing force in the Indo-Pacific region.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Lol...besides Russia, they are the only ones that actually deliver.....they aren't cheap...but they give whatever they commit....Mirages, Rafales, Scorpenes, numerous technological bits for everything including AESA, hull weldings techniques, etc.....
I will share one concrete example.....when Scorpene was signed, MDL folks welded the first hull based on their learnings from Russian subs repairing.....French ended up writing off the entire hull and retrained the engineers to help them learn how underwater hull has to welded for reducing noise and vibrations.........google it...

the problem is that indian babus are low skilled scredrivers who cant do much as they have no incentives to do anything beyond assembling

Is hull welding a big technology? Moreover, it was part of contract that basic tech will be given by France like welding, assembly etc. France only gave that part. Also, Indian babus don't develop technology but DRDO, ISRO does. DRDO/ISRO has indigenised Su30, Brahmos, satellites & SLVs, BMD, semiconductor upto 28nm size. All of these show high competence. France refused to transfer any major tech, be it AESA radar, helicopter engine or anything of complex nature

 

[NSR]

We are buying it because we already signed the deal and our DRDO took too long even to assemble the radar. They transferred the whole tech and we are even supplying it to France itself now.

No way, Jose.
I have been following the AESA radar developments in India.
India sent RFIs to Thales, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, and Elta.
Thales refused to submit the response at all.
Raytheon and NG did not even respond to it at all.
Only Israeli Elta responded but only to supply and not to share TOTs so we bought their EL/-2052.
Those are the facts that I know.

 

[NSR]

Lol...read my reply to Shryujanam's comment...French are business folks running their own independent foreign policy...they do what they commit...the biggest challenge is always to make them commit, but they dont muck around after that

I read MDL MDs interviews with Ajai Shukla and few other places and he painted a grim picture that Naval Systems hardly transferred any TOT and said MDL may have gotten about 40% or so knowledge.

Read my posts above about AESA radar technolgy

 

[Akshat]

No way, Jose.
I have been following the AESA radar developments in India.
India sent RFIs to Thales, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, and Elta.
Thales refused to submit the response at all.
Raytheon and NG did not even respond to it at all.
Only Israeli Elta responded but only to supply and not to share TOTs so we bought their EL/-2052.
Those are the facts that I know.

Then you should update your knowledge. BEL got complete tech transfer for RBE2 TRMs as part of offsets, including training of engineers, and has supplied entire front sections of the radar for Rafale.

 

[Akshat]

Helicopter engine tech was refused. DRDO indigenised most of Shakti-Turbomecca engines but for the core, France refused and India went ahead with HTSE1200 program

Again, where did India officially sent a request? Show me that. If we didn’t ask they can’t refuse.

 

[Akshat]

When did France give radar TRM? India has developed it for UTTAM on its own. UTTAM is undergoing user trials now. The only changes/problems in UTTAM was in terms of software/algorithm, not in terms of TRM quality

BEL received TRM tech as part of offsets for Rafale and has supplied entire front sections of RBE2 for Rafale. The fact that the Uttam prototype came after the deal and DRDO is the nodal agency and aggregator for all ToT also proves that this tech is used in Uttam.

 

[NSR]

Then you should update your knowledge. BEL got complete tech transfer for RBE2 TRMs as part of offsets, including training of engineers, and has supplied entire front sections of the radar for Rafale.

Read what I wrote above and understand may be with dictionary.

Uttam is a solid-state gallium arsenide (GaAs) based active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar under development by the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a laboratory of the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Started in 2012 and full scale model displayed in 2017.

Thales website ----
" The modules produced in India are then integrated with the RBE2 radar in France."

Go away.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Again, where did India officially sent a request? Show me that. If we didn’t ask they can’t refuse.

How do you know India did not send a request? India always sends TOT request during any negotiation.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

BEL received TRM tech as part of offsets for Rafale and has supplied entire front sections of RBE2 for Rafale. The fact that the Uttam prototype came after the deal and DRDO is the nodal agency and aggregator for all ToT also proves that this tech is used in Uttam.

Who said that BEL got TRM from France? Swordfish AESA radar was already with India before. UTTAM was a miniaturisation of the TRMs which is not too hard, considering Swordfish was made in 2009.

 

[Pink Panther]

The non magnetic hull is not available on export version. So not happening.

Germany offers that tech on case by case to some export Countries, Dakar class.

 

[Pink Panther]

The drdo(Npol) has developed/developing a pumpjet propulsion powered by a 35 MW of motor .

So we don’t really need French help.

 

[Akshat]

Who said that BEL got TRM from France? Swordfish AESA radar was already with India before. UTTAM was a miniaturisation of the TRMs which is not too hard, considering Swordfish was made in 2009.

Go to Thales official site. Pictures of the engineers from BEL in their French factory are posted along with the news report. BEL also reported it to media when they delivered the front plates. So the entire tech came from them.

 

[Akshat]

How do you know India did not send a request? India always sends TOT request during any negotiation.

India never sends any ToT requests. Read DPP. It has always been the rule that the companies are free to transfer any tech that they want as part of ToT. Only when some specific component is required do we negotiate for it and pay specifically for it. Like for the AMCA engine we are specifically negotiating for it. But during Rafale purchase, Safran wanted to transfer ToT for Kaveri but the cost was too high. All this was negotiated post deal signing. And once that was rejected, alternate ways to meet offsets were found. So unless and until there is a specific confirmation saying that we sought it, the default hypothesis is that we didn’t.

 

[Sutta Nath Shastri]

Who said that BEL got TRM from France? Swordfish AESA radar was already with India before. UTTAM was a miniaturisation of the TRMs which is not too hard, considering Swordfish was made in 2009.

It is ~3 years old now. Where have u been? Zapped by Thanos? ⚡️😈

BEL delivers modules for radar unit on Rafale jets

The radar was developed in close partnership with the Dassault Aviation and the French Defence Procurement Agency

www.deccanherald.com

Make in India: BEL delivers transmit/receive modules to Thales for Rafale RBE2 Radar

www.thalesgroup.com

 

[Akshat]

Read what I wrote above and understand may be with dictionary.

Uttam is a solid-state gallium arsenide (GaAs) based active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar under development by the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a laboratory of the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Started in 2012 and full scale model displayed in 2017.

Thales website ----
" The modules produced in India are then integrated with the RBE2 radar in France."

Go away.

I think you are the one who needs a dictionary. This is exactly what I said. France gave us the tech for TRMs.

Go away and don’t dare to lie in front of me again.

 

[Sandeep]

The reality is that no country partners with another in submarine nuclear technology as it is very advanced, complicated, scientifically complex and expensive to operate, design and develop. France categorically refused to develop a brand new nuclear attack submarines that India needs to develop but they also refused to give us a license to manufacture their latest nuclear attack submarine as well.

India has to design and develop the technology ourselves and we are making progress but we need to increase the speed of production. Two Arihant submarines are already operational and one is being fitted out with its equipment and technology in a wet dock and the last is still under construction on a dry dock. India is also developing a new class/S5 ballistic nuclear submarine which is twice as big as the Arihant class but the new type can carry more bigger and longer range nuclear missiles that the Arihant class couldn't so we need more bigger submarines to dominate the Indian Ocean and Southeast Asia to keep China's power under control. At the same time we also need to develop nuclear attack submarines which can travel wherever in the ocean at a fast speed and carry out lethal attacks on ships and land targets which makes it lethal.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Go to Thales official site. Pictures of the engineers from BEL in their French factory are posted along with the news report. BEL also reported it to media when they delivered the front plates. So the entire tech came from them.

Are you speaking of the news where Rafale RBE2 radar modules were made by BEL for fitting in Rafale? That is the opposite of what you said

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

It is ~3 years old now. Where have u been? Zapped by Thanos? ⚡️😈

BEL delivers modules for radar unit on Rafale jets

The radar was developed in close partnership with the Dassault Aviation and the French Defence Procurement Agency

www.deccanherald.com

Make in India: BEL delivers transmit/receive modules to Thales for Rafale RBE2 Radar

www.thalesgroup.com

That says BEL delivered the modules, not that France gave the modules. The blueprint sharing was never done. India just didn't want French radars and hence fitted Indian radars

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

India never sends any ToT requests. Read DPP. It has always been the rule that the companies are free to transfer any tech that they want as part of ToT. Only when some specific component is required do we negotiate for it and pay specifically for it. Like for the AMCA engine we are specifically negotiating for it. But during Rafale purchase, Safran wanted to transfer ToT for Kaveri but the cost was too high. All this was negotiated post deal signing. And once that was rejected, alternate ways to meet offsets were found. So unless and until there is a specific confirmation saying that we sought it, the default hypothesis is that we didn’t.

The point here is that no one is willing to share key technology even if negotiated. So, India will buy what it can. I am not saying France signed a contract for giving helicopter engines and then backtracked but I am saying that France never agreed. How do you know France wanted high cost for Kaveri TOT? Do you have a single official source? What was the price? Even if it is $10 billion, it is still better than having to buy USA engines and spares for a decade. Also, France has no 90kN engines to give TOT to Kaveri. So, how can India even ask that?

 

[Akshat]

The point here is that no one is willing to share key technology even if negotiated. So, India will buy what it can. I am not saying France signed a contract for giving helicopter engines and then backtracked but I am saying that France never agreed. How do you know France wanted high cost for Kaveri TOT? Do you have a single official source? What was the price? Even if it is $10 billion, it is still better than having to buy USA engines and spares for a decade. Also, France has no 90kN engines to give TOT to Kaveri. So, how can India even ask that?

The point is that France was never asked for helicopter engines. You have failed to show a single proof of that.

As for Kaveri, a formal agreement was signed to explore working on Kaveri together and then it was not moved forward. The price thing of course hasn’t been officially acknowledged.

 

[Akshat]

Are you speaking of the news where Rafale RBE2 radar modules were made by BEL for fitting in Rafale? That is the opposite of what you said

I am talking about the news where Thales transferred TRM tech to BELa nd then BEL made those and delivered them to France.

 

[Akshat]

Is hull welding a big technology? Moreover, it was part of contract that basic tech will be given by France like welding, assembly etc. France only gave that part. Also, Indian babus don't develop technology but DRDO, ISRO does. DRDO/ISRO has indigenised Su30, Brahmos, satellites & SLVs, BMD, semiconductor upto 28nm size. All of these show high competence. France refused to transfer any major tech, be it AESA radar, helicopter engine or anything of complex nature

France already transferred major tech like AESA TRMs. They also gave 40% indigenisation in Scorpene while the contract mentioned 0%. Amazing people. Just amazing.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

France already transferred major tech like AESA TRMs. They also gave 40% indigenisation in Scorpene while the contract mentioned 0%. Amazing people. Just amazing.

That is a delusion without facts. India wanted its own radars as part of Indigenisation. So, BEL fitted its own TRM, not French giving TOT. As for scorpene, France refused to give key details because of which India is having trouble making own submarines. The less critical details were just low tech given as part of Rafale offset.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

The point is that France was never asked for helicopter engines. You have failed to show a single proof of that.

As for Kaveri, a formal agreement was signed to explore working on Kaveri together and then it was not moved forward. The price thing of course hasn’t been officially acknowledged.

Show me single proof of 2nd statement regarding kaveri. Not presstitutes but official statements. Macron himself denied any such thing but here you are

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

I am talking about the news where Thales transferred TRM tech to BELa nd then BEL made those and delivered them to France.

The first part never happened. Only the 2nd part happened. Only thing France did was train the engineers on how to fit the radars in Rafale as it is French designed plane.

 

[Akshat]

Show me single proof of 2nd statement regarding kaveri. Not presstitutes but official statements. Macron himself denied any such thing but here you are

Which statement? About price? I already said, there ain’t official comments. But regarding offer and agreement, DRDO chief himself declared it publicly,

 

[Akshat]

The first part never happened. Only the 2nd part happened. Only thing France did was train the engineers on how to fit the radars in Rafale as it is French designed plane.

The entire tech. The whole tech came from them. It’s in the public.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

Which statement? About price? I already said, there ain’t official comments. But regarding offer and agreement, DRDO chief himself declared it publicly,

There was no public declaration. The only thing negotiated with France is $2million for initial certification of kaveri which was done for limited envelope and then likely later full certification once it is done completely. Anything about TOT, JV, collaboration is just a lie.

 

[Shrujanam Syama]

The entire tech. The whole tech came from them. It’s in the public.

Nope, that is not in public. The only thing in public is that BEL themselves fitted the BEL manufactured TRM to Rafale radars with France only training the Indian team regarding the assembly technique. Everything about French TOT is a lie

 

[Akshat]

That is a delusion without facts. India wanted its own radars as part of Indigenisation. So, BEL fitted its own TRM, not French giving TOT. As for scorpene, France refused to give key details because of which India is having trouble making own submarines. The less critical details were just low tech given as part of Rafale offset.

That is fact without lies. Thales gave the entire tech and BEL made them. As for Scorpene, France was not bound to give anything at all but still gave it. It gave so much that MDL chairman now says that he can make the whole submarine without any French help, but can't certify or test it. So everything important was given.