India to Hold Complete IPR for Its Domestically Developed 120kN Jet Engine in Collaboration with Safran

In a landmark development for its aerospace and defence sector, India is moving forward with a plan to develop a new-generation jet engine with 100% Intellectual Property Rights (IPR).

The powerful 120kN thrust class engine will be developed in collaboration with French aerospace giant Safran, marking a pivotal step in India’s quest for self-reliance in critical military technology.

The new engine, capable of generating approximately 12 tons of thrust, is being developed primarily to power India's future fleet of advanced fighter aircraft.

It is slated to be the powerplant for the Mk2 version of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), the nation’s fifth-generation stealth fighter currently under development.

Mastering jet engine manufacturing is considered a major technological achievement, as it is a highly complex and guarded field globally.

A crucial aspect of this collaboration is that India will retain full ownership and control over the engine's design, manufacturing technology, and future upgrades.

This complete IPR ensures that the nation will not be dependent on foreign nations for servicing, maintenance, or modifications, thereby strengthening national security. This move also positions India to potentially export advanced aeronautical systems in the future.

The project has received official government sanction, indicating firm financial and political backing. The development will be spearheaded by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), with its Bengaluru-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) leading the design efforts.

The partnership with Safran is expected to involve a complete transfer of technology, enabling Indian engineers to absorb and build upon the sophisticated knowledge required.

Beyond the design phase, the initiative aims to cultivate a comprehensive and self-sufficient aerospace ecosystem within the country. The program is structured to establish a robust domestic supply chain, from the indigenous development of advanced materials like high-temperature alloys to building manufacturing capabilities among Indian private and public sector companies.

Furthermore, the plan includes upgrading and establishing state-of-the-art testing and certification facilities to ensure the engine meets rigorous international standards for safety and performance.

 

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[智子 伊瀬]

The Rolls-Royce proposal for Turkey’s KAAN program did not collapse because Ankara “rejected” it outright, but because of disagreements over intellectual property rights. Rolls-Royce and Kale Group had set up a joint venture, but Turkey insisted on full access to the core technologies- something no engine OEM in the world agrees to. When no compromise was reached, the program stalled. In the meantime, Turkey has relied on the GE F110, built under license by TEI, for KAAN prototypes and the early production blocks. This reliance shows that Turkey does not yet have a mature indigenous engine solution. Motor Sich’s involvement for the APU illustrates further that even secondary systems are being sourced externally. TEI has initiated work on the TF6000/TF10000 engines, but these are still at the test stage and years away from being certified for fighter use. In contrast, Rolls-Royce, Safran, and MTU already bring decades of experience producing operational, combat-proven engines. The reality is that Turkey’s indigenous engine is still an aspiration, not an available product, and KAAN remains dependent on foreign propulsion in the near to medium term.

And regarding your toxicity- I suggest you please dont relegate yourself to the low-level of the 'fringe groups' of users who believe in dehumanizing name-calling. Hold yourself to a higher standard- and keep the conversation about DEFENSE, instead of personal attacks. What ever happened to civil conversations?

Precisely because Ankara refused. RR agreed to technology transfer back in 2022, but was simply rejected. Turkey said almost from the very beginning that the prototypes and Block 1 would have an imported engine (hinting at the F110) and that the national engine would be with Block 2, which is planned for 2030-2032. And yes, Turkey somehow copes with the development of a loyal wingman alone, without conditional Germany.

The TF-6000 has successfully passed more than 60 tests, and progress is also evident in the TF-10000 and TF-35000 programs. The Turks would be a much more useful partner than Germany if it weren't for politics🤣

As for Ukraine's participation, it is obvious that they were given a lower priority task, and that Ukraine continues to successfully sell Soviet technology for a small price.

 

[Snowstrike]

Precisely because Ankara refused. RR agreed to technology transfer back in 2022, but was simply rejected. Turkey said almost from the very beginning that the prototypes and Block 1 would have an imported engine (hinting at the F110) and that the national engine would be with Block 2, which is planned for 2030-2032. And yes, Turkey somehow copes with the development of a loyal wingman alone, without conditional Germany.

The TF-6000 has successfully passed more than 60 tests, and progress is also evident in the TF-10000 and TF-35000 programs. The Turks would be a much more useful partner than Germany if it weren't for politics🤣

As for Ukraine's participation, it is obvious that they were given a lower priority task, and that Ukraine continues to successfully sell Soviet technology for a small price.
Oh, here we go again with the fairytales. First, stop trying to spin Turkey’s engine saga as some glorious independence story. The TF6000? Sixty “tests” means absolutely nothing when it’s still a baby turbofan for drones and trainers, not a cutting-edge fighter engine. The TF10000 and TF35000? They exist mostly as CGI renders and PowerPoint slides — zero real prototypes, zero integration, zero proven performance. Compare that to MTU, which literally co-designed the EJ200 hot section — the most thermally stressed and technologically advanced part of the Typhoon’s engine. That isn’t “30% assembly,” that’s mastery of the hardest bit. Without Germany, the EJ200 would not exist.


Meanwhile, you glorify Turkey’s “loyal wingman” as if it’s proof of self-reliance. Funny how that program is still years behind Europe’s nEUROn, which already flew in 2012 thanks to a multinational team — Dassault, Saab, Alenia, HAI, RUAG, EADS-CASA. You know, actual results, not promotional videos.


And this nonsense about Turkey being a “better partner than Germany”? Please. Germany is the industrial backbone of Europe — engine cores, avionics, manufacturing depth, funding. Without them, FCAS collapses into another Mirage F1-style solo disaster: an expensive, irrelevant dead-end. You can mock politics all you like, but Germany brings actual irreplaceable technology. Turkey, at best, brings an aspirational PowerPoint and a dependence on U.S. F110s.


And as for Ukraine — sneering at them for “selling Soviet tech” is a joke. Motor Sich is one of the few companies with deep turbomachinery know-how in ex-USSR space, and their cooperation is valued globally (China, Turkey itself, even Europe). To dismiss them just shows your ignorance.


In short: stop worshipping unproven Tu

Precisely because Ankara refused. RR agreed to technology transfer back in 2022, but was simply rejected. Turkey said almost from the very beginning that the prototypes and Block 1 would have an imported engine (hinting at the F110) and that the national engine would be with Block 2, which is planned for 2030-2032. And yes, Turkey somehow copes with the development of a loyal wingman alone, without conditional Germany.

The TF-6000 has successfully passed more than 60 tests, and progress is also evident in the TF-10000 and TF-35000 programs. The Turks would be a much more useful partner than Germany if it weren't for politics🤣

As for Ukraine's participation, it is obvious that they were given a lower priority task, and that Ukraine continues to successfully sell Soviet technology for a small price.

Oh, here we go again with the fairytales. Turkey demanded full IP + ToT, something which RR simply couldnt agree to- along with the fact that Turkey wanted to involve a Qatari-Turkish company. Hence, they got kicked to the curb, and the deal fell through. Trying to spin Turkey’s engine saga as some glorious independence story is pointless. The TF6000? Sixty “tests” means absolutely nothing when it’s still a baby turbofan for drones and trainers, not a cutting-edge fighter engine. The TF10000 and TF35000? They exist mostly as CGI renders and PowerPoint slides- zero real prototypes, zero integration, zero proven performance. Compare that to MTU, which literally co-designed the EJ200, including its cold section and DECMU- some of the most stressed and technologically advanced parts of the Typhoon’s engine. That isn’t “30% assembly,” that’s mastery of the hardest bit. Without Germany, the EJ200 would not exist.

Meanwhile, you glorify Turkey’s “loyal wingman” as if it’s proof of self-reliance. Funny how that program is still years behind Europe’s nEUROn, which already flew in 2012 thanks to a multinational team — Dassault, Saab, Alenia, HAI, RUAG, EADS-CASA. You know, actual results, not promotional videos.

And this nonsense about Turkey being a “better partner than Germany”? Please. Germany is the industrial backbone of Europe- engine cores, avionics, manufacturing depth, funding. Without them, FCAS collapses into another Mirage III V solo disaster: an expensive, irrelevant dead-end. You can mock politics all you like, but Germany brings actual irreplaceable technology. Turkey, at best, brings an aspirational PowerPoint and a dependence on U.S. F110s.

And as for Ukraine- sneering at them for “selling Soviet tech” is a joke. Motor Sich is one of the few companies with deep turbomachinery know-how in ex-USSR space, and their cooperation is valued globally (China, Turkey itself, even Europe). To dismiss them just shows your ignorance.

In short: stop worshipping unproven Turkish slides while ignoring decades of proven German and European achievements. Without Germany, there is no FCAS.

At this point, I implore you to stop being toxic to certain nations or groups of people on defense.in- it is disgraceful behavior which needs to end.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Oh, here we go again with the fairytales. Turkey demanded full IP + ToT, something which RR simply couldnt agree to- along with the fact that Turkey wanted to involve a Qatari-Turkish company. Hence, they got kicked to the curb, and the deal fell through. Trying to spin Turkey’s engine saga as some glorious independence story is pointless. The TF6000? Sixty “tests” means absolutely nothing when it’s still a baby turbofan for drones and trainers, not a cutting-edge fighter engine. The TF10000 and TF35000? They exist mostly as CGI renders and PowerPoint slides- zero real prototypes, zero integration, zero proven performance. Compare that to MTU, which literally co-designed the EJ200, including its cold section and DECMU- some of the most stressed and technologically advanced parts of the Typhoon’s engine. That isn’t “30% assembly,” that’s mastery of the hardest bit. Without Germany, the EJ200 would not exist.

Meanwhile, you glorify Turkey’s “loyal wingman” as if it’s proof of self-reliance. Funny how that program is still years behind Europe’s nEUROn, which already flew in 2012 thanks to a multinational team — Dassault, Saab, Alenia, HAI, RUAG, EADS-CASA. You know, actual results, not promotional videos.

And this nonsense about Turkey being a “better partner than Germany”? Please. Germany is the industrial backbone of Europe- engine cores, avionics, manufacturing depth, funding. Without them, FCAS collapses into another Mirage III V solo disaster: an expensive, irrelevant dead-end. You can mock politics all you like, but Germany brings actual irreplaceable technology. Turkey, at best, brings an aspirational PowerPoint and a dependence on U.S. F110s.

And as for Ukraine- sneering at them for “selling Soviet tech” is a joke. Motor Sich is one of the few companies with deep turbomachinery know-how in ex-USSR space, and their cooperation is valued globally (China, Turkey itself, even Europe). To dismiss them just shows your ignorance.

In short: stop worshipping unproven Turkish slides while ignoring decades of proven German and European achievements. Without Germany, there is no FCAS.

At this point, I implore you to stop being toxic to certain nations or groups of people on defense.in- it is disgraceful behavior which needs to end.

One of the project's curators, Ismail Demir, said back in 2022 that the RR problems had been solved. However, RR and Kale's proposal was rejected when a consortium of only Turkish companies won in 2024. Qatar no longer has a stake in TRMotor, it is entirely owned by Turkey. The TF-10000 is in an advanced stage and is preparing to build a full-fledged prototype, work on creating new materials and blades for the TF-35000 has also yielded noticeable results. Yes, it looks like the Turks will still become a full-fledged aviation power in the 30s, they can be congratulated on their success and perseverance. And a bonus - they have mastered the development and testing of their turboshaft engine.

Germany must give guarantees that it will not hinder the export of NGF under any government, refusal to integrate American nuclear bombs (as compensation, French bombs on German territory can be singled out), at least this. Merz looks smarter than Merkel and Scholz, it is easier to negotiate with him. On the one hand, it may be necessary to use that trick with new participants, on the other hand, Trappier must learn to keep his mouth shut and not rave about 80%.

I have nothing against Ukraine, but they sell their technology to anyone, China thanks to them made a sharp technological leap in the field of engine building, which is now harming Ukraine itself (China supplies marine engines for the Russian fleet). They also helped the Turks master some technologies. They have a lot of experience in creating transport aircraft, engines for missiles and training aircraft, but there are big problems with powerful engines for fighters and general technological decline due to the collapse of the USSR and the beginning of the war. The Ukrainians would be useful in developing a replacement for the Alpha Jet or A400M, but I just don’t see their role for FCAS.

 

[Snowstrike]

One of the project's curators, Ismail Demir, said back in 2022 that the RR problems had been solved. However, RR and Kale's proposal was rejected when a consortium of only Turkish companies won in 2024. Qatar no longer has a stake in TRMotor, it is entirely owned by Turkey. The TF-10000 is in an advanced stage and is preparing to build a full-fledged prototype, work on creating new materials and blades for the TF-35000 has also yielded noticeable results. Yes, it looks like the Turks will still become a full-fledged aviation power in the 30s, they can be congratulated on their success and perseverance. And a bonus - they have mastered the development and testing of their turboshaft engine.

Germany must give guarantees that it will not hinder the export of NGF under any government, refusal to integrate American nuclear bombs (as compensation, French bombs on German territory can be singled out), at least this. Merz looks smarter than Merkel and Scholz, it is easier to negotiate with him. On the one hand, it may be necessary to use that trick with new participants, on the other hand, Trappier must learn to keep his mouth shut and not rave about 80%.

I have nothing against Ukraine, but they sell their technology to anyone, China thanks to them made a sharp technological leap in the field of engine building, which is now harming Ukraine itself (China supplies marine engines for the Russian fleet). They also helped the Turks master some technologies. They have a lot of experience in creating transport aircraft, engines for missiles and training aircraft, but there are big problems with powerful engines for fighters and general technological decline due to the collapse of the USSR and the beginning of the war. The Ukrainians would be useful in developing a replacement for the Alpha Jet or A400M, but I just don’t see their role for FCAS.

Wrong again. RR pulled out of the engine program with Turkey because of IP and ToT disagreements- like I said earlier, the turks wanted 100% IP to the engine, which was not acceptable to RR- and they wanted to involve BCM, NOT TRmotor like you think. BCM is co-owned by Turkey and Qatar, and RR has concerns over IP or ToT leaks and wanted leverage. The TF-10000 is nowhere near 'advanced stage'.

They’ve pushed the TF-10000 and talked up the TF-35000- but calling that “advanced” is marketing spin. What exists right now are component tests and demonstrators, not a flight-ready prototype engine. Designing turbine blades and “new materials” is the baseline requirement for any serious fighter engine program, not some revolutionary leap. You don’t join the big leagues because you’ve built a turboshaft. Until Turkey runs a reliable high-thrust turbofan in an actual testbed or airframe, they are not close to being an engine power. And they’re still decades behind the US, UK, France, and Germany. Full aviation power in the 2030s? Maybe, but “maybe” is the operative word.

Then we get to Germany. Demanding “guarantees” on NGF exports is laughable- that’s exactly why Germany is critical to the program. Without German participation, there would be no FCAS budget, no critical MTU cold-section compressor tech, no Hensoldt and Airbus EW expertise, and no political weight to actually export to Europe’s biggest markets. France needs Germany just as much as Germany needs France, which is why Trappier’s chest-beating about “80% French” is delusional. And the idea of swapping American nukes for French ones on German soil? Pure fantasy. Berlin isn’t about to trade a NATO nuclear guarantee for dependence on Paris’s boutique arsenal.

As for Ukraine-the dismissal here is either ignorance or willful downplaying. Ukraine has provided more than “some help” to Turkey; without Motor Sich’s design input, the Anka, Bayraktar, and even Turkish helicopters would have been years behind. And let’s not pretend France hasn’t done similar by leaning on GE for CFM56 and LEAP tech. I still agree Ukraine doesnt have a role in FCAS though.

So what you’re really doing is taking Turkey’s marketing press releases at face value, France’s self-promotion as gospel, and hand-waving Germany and Ukraine as “lesser.” Reality check: without German funding and MTU/ Airbus/ Hensoldt's engineering and capabilities, and without wider NATO buy-in, FCAS doesn’t even exist.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Qatar no longer holds a stake in TRMotor, their stake was bought by TEI. Kale and RR agreed on technology transfer back in late 2022, but Ankara chose the Turkish consortium (Apparently the lobby was stronger, or TRMotor achieved greater success)

TUSAŞ Bought All Shares of TRMotor | TURDEF

TRMotor Guc Sistemleri San. A.Ş. has been purchased by Turkish Aerospace Industries. Previously, BMC sold its shares in TRMotor and left the partnership.

turdef.com

If Germany imposes an embargo again, what is the point of developing FCAS further? If there are guarantees, that is a completely different matter. Then why are the Germans against opening the Typhoon code for integrating American bombs and bought the F-35 for the sake of American bombs? If the Germans need aviation nuclear bombs so much, France can provide its own, without having to transfer the code and other things to third countries. Anka and Aksungur drones had Turkish engines, Ukrainian engines bought Baykar for Akıncı and Kızılelma. Gökbey and T-929 will use or are using Turkish engines. CFM was originally a consortium.
Well, the Turks have shown a leap in technology over the last 20 years.

 

[Snowstrike]

Qatar no longer holds a stake in TRMotor, their stake was bought by TEI. Kale and RR agreed on technology transfer back in late 2022, but Ankara chose the Turkish consortium (Apparently the lobby was stronger, or TRMotor achieved greater success)

TUSAŞ Bought All Shares of TRMotor | TURDEF

TRMotor Guc Sistemleri San. A.Ş. has been purchased by Turkish Aerospace Industries. Previously, BMC sold its shares in TRMotor and left the partnership.

turdef.com

If Germany imposes an embargo again, what is the point of developing FCAS further? If there are guarantees, that is a completely different matter. Then why are the Germans against opening the Typhoon code for integrating American bombs and bought the F-35 for the sake of American bombs? If the Germans need aviation nuclear bombs so much, France can provide its own, without having to transfer the code and other things to third countries. Anka and Aksungur drones had Turkish engines, Ukrainian engines bought Baykar for Akıncı and Kızılelma. Gökbey and T-929 will use or are using Turkish engines. CFM was originally a consortium.
Well, the Turks have shown a leap in technology over the last 20 years.

Who spoke about TRMotor? The Qatari-Turkish company in question is BCM. Your lack of knowledge of that information seems to indicate you are spewing things without thinking it through. The Turkish government wanted 100% IPR and full ToT for the engine, and of course, the involvement of BCM- things RR could not agree too, hence they pulled out of the deal, and Turkey was forced to go with an indigenous alternative. I don't know what your talking about with the 'Germany was against opening Typhoon code for American bombs' thing. It was cheaper for them to buy American F-35s, which were already nuclear-certified, rather than go through the grueling, expensive, and time-consuming process of certifying the Typhoon- which of course required US cooperation too. France operates its own nuclear doctrine, mostly independent from NATO. Germany does not want French nukes- whoever told you that information is dead wrong is deliberately lying. Only recently the Anka and Aksungur received indigenous Turkish engines, after inititally using Ukrainian ones- but the Bayraktar STILL uses Ukrainian engines. The Akinci HALE uses Ivchenko-Progress Al450T, while the Kizilelma uses the Al322F turbojet- another point gotten wrong by you. GE kept a tight leash on the crown jewels of the CFM.

In the end, I am highly disappointed by this conversation- EVERY message you have sent contains several factual inaccuracies, hoaxes, and myths- which can be seen as lack of due diligence, carelessness at best, or even intentional misinformation at worse. I strongly suggest you read heavily on the topic before further pursuing the discussion.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Who spoke about TRMotor? The Qatari-Turkish company in question is BCM. Your lack of knowledge of that information seems to indicate you are spewing things without thinking it through. The Turkish government wanted 100% IPR and full ToT for the engine, and of course, the involvement of BCM- things RR could not agree too, hence they pulled out of the deal, and Turkey was forced to go with an indigenous alternative. I don't know what your talking about with the 'Germany was against opening Typhoon code for American bombs' thing. It was cheaper for them to buy American F-35s, which were already nuclear-certified, rather than go through the grueling, expensive, and time-consuming process of certifying the Typhoon- which of course required US cooperation too. France operates its own nuclear doctrine, mostly independent from NATO. Germany does not want French nukes- whoever told you that information is dead wrong is deliberately lying. Only recently the Anka and Aksungur received indigenous Turkish engines, after inititally using Ukrainian ones- but the Bayraktar STILL uses Ukrainian engines. The Akinci HALE uses Ivchenko-Progress Al450T, while the Kizilelma uses the Al322F turbojet- another point gotten wrong by you. GE kept a tight leash on the crown jewels of the CFM.

In the end, I am highly disappointed by this conversation- EVERY message you have sent contains several factual inaccuracies, hoaxes, and myths- which can be seen as lack of due diligence, carelessness at best, or even intentional misinformation at worse. I strongly suggest you read heavily on the topic before further pursuing the discussion.

Because BMC participated in the project through TRMotor, in which Qatar sold its entire stake. Qatar no longer has anything to do with the Kaan engine, Ismail Demir said back in 2022 that the RR problems were resolved, which means the Turkish consortium was not chosen because of "RR's refusal to transfer technology". Germany actively resisted the purchase of the F-35 under Merkel and only Scholz agreed to purchase it, since the Tornado would soon be decommissioned, and Germany also did not want to transfer the Typhoon source code to the US. France is ready to cover Germany with a nuclear umbrella if there is a request. I don't think Germany is eager to transfer the FCAS source code to the US for the sake of American bombs. Anka and Aksungur initially had Turkish engines, it is the private company Baykar that buys Ukrainian ones (Although there are 3 engine options to choose from for Akinci, the TF-6000 will be used on Kizilelma). So where is the German equivalent of CFM?

 

[Snowstrike]

Because BMC participated in the project through TRMotor, in which Qatar sold its entire stake. Qatar no longer has anything to do with the Kaan engine, Ismail Demir said back in 2022 that the RR problems were resolved, which means the Turkish consortium was not chosen because of "RR's refusal to transfer technology". Germany actively resisted the purchase of the F-35 under Merkel and only Scholz agreed to purchase it, since the Tornado would soon be decommissioned, and Germany also did not want to transfer the Typhoon source code to the US. France is ready to cover Germany with a nuclear umbrella if there is a request. I don't think Germany is eager to transfer the FCAS source code to the US for the sake of American bombs. Anka and Aksungur initially had Turkish engines, it is the private company Baykar that buys Ukrainian ones (Although there are 3 engine options to choose from for Akinci, the TF-6000 will be used on Kizilelma). So where is the German equivalent of CFM?

This rant is just a pile of half-baked takes dressed up like gospel. First off, Qatar never lost its stake in BMC. That’s fanfiction. The Qatari angle was through BMC, which Erdoğan’s crowd hyped for the Rolls-Royce JV. Qatar bailed, TEI scooped up TRMotor, and suddenly we’re supposed to believe Turkey unlocked Rolls-Royce metallurgy by osmosis? Please. Demir’s “RR problems were resolved” line in 2022 was political kabuki; if RR had actually agreed to full tech transfer, and to involve BMC in the engine development, the Kale-RR JV wouldn’t have been binned- Ankara just went with its own lobby and called it “national pride.” Translation: they’ll hobble along for decades until their own engine is maybe ready. Still far behind the best engine-makers in the world.

Now, Germany and the F-35. Merkel dragging her feet wasn’t about “defying the US,” it was optics. The Luftwaffe needed a certified nuclear bomb truck and the Typhoon was never going to carry B61s, unless you dump money and time on it. Scholz didn’t suddenly fall in love with Lockheed- he just bought the only plane that keeps NATO’s nuclear-sharing intact after the Tornado’s retirement. France’s “nuclear umbrella for Germany” is another fantasy; Paris guards the Force de frappe like crown jewels, they’re not handing Berlin nuclear cover out of charity. There are bound to be extensive disagreements between the two as seen now and and in the past- Berlin does not want France to become the next 'US' in NATO.

And the drone engines? Yeah, Anka and Aksungur had domestic engines in early runs, but Baykar still had to go shopping in Ukraine for Akıncı to even fly. TF-6000 for Kızılelma is vaporware until proven otherwise. This whole “look, we’re self-reliant” narrative falls apart once you scratch the surface.

Finally, the “where is Germany’s CFM?” jab is just ignorant. It’s called MTU Aero Engines. They don’t slap a flag on engines, they own the crown jewels: blisk tech, turbine blades, low-pressure systems. They’re partners in PW1000G, they build chunks of GE and Pratt engines, and they co-designed EJ200. Germany doesn’t need a vanity “national engine” to prove itself- their strategy is smarter: own the IP inside everyone else’s engines and cash the royalties while others brag about prototypes that barely spool up.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Who spoke about TRMotor? The Qatari-Turkish company in question is BCM. Your lack of knowledge of that information seems to indicate you are spewing things without thinking it through. The Turkish government wanted 100% IPR and full ToT for the engine, and of course, the involvement of BCM- things RR could not agree too, hence they pulled out of the deal, and Turkey was forced to go with an indigenous alternative. I don't know what your talking about with the 'Germany was against opening Typhoon code for American bombs' thing. It was cheaper for them to buy American F-35s, which were already nuclear-certified, rather than go through the grueling, expensive, and time-consuming process of certifying the Typhoon- which of course required US cooperation too. France operates its own nuclear doctrine, mostly independent from NATO. Germany does not want French nukes- whoever told you that information is dead wrong is deliberately lying. Only recently the Anka and Aksungur received indigenous Turkish engines, after inititally using Ukrainian ones- but the Bayraktar STILL uses Ukrainian engines. The Akinci HALE uses Ivchenko-Progress Al450T, while the Kizilelma uses the Al322F turbojet- another point gotten wrong by you. GE kept a tight leash on the crown jewels of the CFM.

In the end, I am highly disappointed by this conversation- EVERY message you have sent contains several factual inaccuracies, hoaxes, and myths- which can be seen as lack of due diligence, carelessness at best, or even intentional misinformation at worse. I strongly suggest you read heavily on the topic before further pursuing the discussion.

TEI has bought out BMC's stake in TRMotor, and Qatar no longer has any involvement in the Kaan engine development program.
France is already building a nuclear weapons carrier base on the border with Germany and is actively declaring its readiness to provide a nuclear umbrella to any EU member upon request. Buying F-35A for Germany is simply pointless, using free-fall nuclear bombs in 21th century is nonsense. If necessary, Paris could provide cruise nuclear missiles for the NGF from the German Air Force, similar to the American nuclear bombs on the German Tornado.
Akinci currently has 3 engine variants to meet customer requirements (2 from PW and 1 from Ivchenko Progress), TF-6000 was originally planned for Kizilelma. Yes, the first batches will use the Ukrainian engine until the TF-6000 is launched into serial production. It is already actively undergoing testing, in the certification process.
That is, Germany does not own 50% of the shares of some CFM? Well who is stopping them from creating a similar concern with other manufacturers? Safran also had 50% of the shares in PowerJet, where it made the hot part for the SaM146, the remaining 50% was owned by NPO Saturn.

 

[Snowstrike]

TEI has bought out BMC's stake in TRMotor, and Qatar no longer has any involvement in the Kaan engine development program.
France is already building a nuclear weapons carrier base on the border with Germany and is actively declaring its readiness to provide a nuclear umbrella to any EU member upon request. Buying F-35A for Germany is simply pointless, using free-fall nuclear bombs in 21th century is nonsense. If necessary, Paris could provide cruise nuclear missiles for the NGF from the German Air Force, similar to the American nuclear bombs on the German Tornado.
Akinci currently has 3 engine variants to meet customer requirements (2 from PW and 1 from Ivchenko Progress), TF-6000 was originally planned for Kizilelma. Yes, the first batches will use the Ukrainian engine until the TF-6000 is launched into serial production. It is already actively undergoing testing, in the certification process.
That is, Germany does not own 50% of the shares of some CFM? Well who is stopping them from creating a similar concern with other manufacturers? Safran also had 50% of the shares in PowerJet, where it made the hot part for the SaM146, the remaining 50% was owned by NPO Saturn.

Wow. Where do I even start with this one? how about the fact that Qatar STILL has its 49% share in BMC. BMC is co-owned, 51% by Turkey and 49% by Qatar. TRMotor was bought out by TEI, NOT BMC. And who did the Turkish government want involved in the engine deal with RR? you guessed it- BMC. Of course, this was ridiculous and unacceptable to RR- coupled with the 100% IP and ToT demands of Turkey, they pulled out- leaving Turkey only one alternative- its indigenous engine. Cruise nuclear integration is highly complex. You can’t just “hand over cruise missiles” and call it a day- the avionics, fire-control, security protocols, and training make it a multi-year, multi-billion-dollar integration task. Assuming otherwise is downright false and has some serious problems. The F-35 isn’t just about nukes- it’s a fifth-gen multirole platform with stealth, sensors, and networked capabilities that Germany absolutely needs for modern air operations. Do you really think anything like this is gonna happen in the near future? Never. As for the Akinci, exactly. Turkey still relies on Ukrainian engines for operational capabilities because the TF-6000 is still in testing, not serial production. The TF-6000 is not a proven engine yet- it’s not operationally fielded. Prototype testing does not equal a reliable production engine capable of sustained operational sorties. And I really dont understand your CFM point- why would MTU be in it? Its a JV between Safran-GE. MTU has its own ventures in the EJ200, demonstrators, and its own R&D- making them world leaders in cold section and compressor technology. Which is why they are partnered with GE and P&W for several engines and MROs.

As for the Safran-NPO Saturn JV, it looks like your just spreading some more propaganda- because the engine produced (SaM146) was a CIVILIAN engine, aimed at powering CIVILIAN jets like the Sukhoi Superjet100. Trying to correlate Safran's CIVILIAN hot-section work with MILITARY engines is a FAR, FAR stretch. Infact, military engines are SO different that any knowledge gained from civilian engines dont mean anything when developing a MILITARY one. How is this related to the conversation? Or are you just trying to get some filler in now? I really think you should research on this topic, and stop spewing misinformation on forums. The quality of this conversation has dropped massively since it started- since everytime I quash your point you jump onto a completely different and unrelated topic, only to get swatted again.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Wow. Where do I even start with this one? how about the fact that Qatar STILL has its 49% share in BMC. BMC is co-owned, 51% by Turkey and 49% by Qatar. TRMotor was bought out by TEI, NOT BMC. And who did the Turkish government want involved in the engine deal with RR? you guessed it- BMC. Of course, this was ridiculous and unacceptable to RR- coupled with the 100% IP and ToT demands of Turkey, they pulled out- leaving Turkey only one alternative- its indigenous engine. Cruise nuclear integration is highly complex. You can’t just “hand over cruise missiles” and call it a day- the avionics, fire-control, security protocols, and training make it a multi-year, multi-billion-dollar integration task. Assuming otherwise is downright false and has some serious problems. The F-35 isn’t just about nukes- it’s a fifth-gen multirole platform with stealth, sensors, and networked capabilities that Germany absolutely needs for modern air operations. Do you really think anything like this is gonna happen in the near future? Never. As for the Akinci, exactly. Turkey still relies on Ukrainian engines for operational capabilities because the TF-6000 is still in testing, not serial production. The TF-6000 is not a proven engine yet- it’s not operationally fielded. Prototype testing does not equal a reliable production engine capable of sustained operational sorties. And I really dont understand your CFM point- why would MTU be in it? Its a JV between Safran-GE. MTU has its own ventures in the EJ200, demonstrators, and its own R&D- making them world leaders in cold section and compressor technology. Which is why they are partnered with GE and P&W for several engines and MROs.

As for the Safran-NPO Saturn JV, it looks like your just spreading some more propaganda- because the engine produced (SaM146) was a CIVILIAN engine, aimed at powering CIVILIAN jets like the Sukhoi Superjet100. Trying to correlate Safran's CIVILIAN hot-section work with MILITARY engines is a FAR, FAR stretch. Infact, military engines are SO different that any knowledge gained from civilian engines dont mean anything when developing a MILITARY one. How is this related to the conversation? Or are you just trying to get some filler in now? I really think you should research on this topic, and stop spewing misinformation on forums. The quality of this conversation has dropped massively since it started- since everytime I quash your point you jump onto a completely different and unrelated topic, only to get swatted again.

BMC is no longer involved in the engine project, as TEI has bought out its entire stake in TRMotor, meaning Qatar has had no involvement in the program since 2024. Not BMC, but Kale was in partnership with RR. France has long had nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, even the Storm Shadow could potentially be a nuclear weapon, since the British recently started thinking about equipping them with nuclear warheads. Akinci uses 3 different engine variants, the TF-6000 is for Kizilelma, but since it is still undergoing testing and the production line has just begun to be built, the AI-322 will be a temporary solution for the first batches. What prevents MTU from having a 50% stake in the consortium, as Safran did with GE in CFM? CFM is also a civilian sector, engines for airliners. However, in addition to 50% in CFM, Safran also had 50% in PowerJet, in PowerJet Safran was involved in the "hot" part of the engine. Does MTU have something similar?

 

[Snowstrike]

BMC is no longer involved in the engine project, as TEI has bought out its entire stake in TRMotor, meaning Qatar has had no involvement in the program since 2024. Not BMC, but Kale was in partnership with RR. France has long had nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, even the Storm Shadow could potentially be a nuclear weapon, since the British recently started thinking about equipping them with nuclear warheads. Akinci uses 3 different engine variants, the TF-6000 is for Kizilelma, but since it is still undergoing testing and the production line has just begun to be built, the AI-322 will be a temporary solution for the first batches. What prevents MTU from having a 50% stake in the consortium, as Safran did with GE in CFM? CFM is also a civilian sector, engines for airliners. However, in addition to 50% in CFM, Safran also had 50% in PowerJet, in PowerJet Safran was involved in the "hot" part of the engine. Does MTU have something similar?

This is another masterclass in sloppy half-truths and face-saving gymnastics. First, your “BMC is no longer involved” claim: stop trying to rewrite history. BMC was the Turkish-Qatari partner Rolls-Royce was supposed to work with in the TF-X engine program- and BMC is still 49% Qatari-owned. That stain doesn’t vanish just because TEI later maneuvered into TRMotor. Rolls-Royce itself publicly confirmed it balked at working with BMC specifically because of Qatari ownership and lack of capability. So yes, BMC was central, and yes, Qatar was baked into Turkey’s supposed “indigenous” fighter program. You don’t get to erase that embarrassing fact.

Then you try to pivot to Kale and Rolls-Royce- except Kale was a separate, earlier partner, and even that fell apart because of Turkey’s obsession with keeping foreign partners at arm’s length while demanding full access to intellectual property. If Kale was so effective, why did Rolls-Royce pull back? Answer: because Ankara wanted to strongarm them into tech transfer without guarantees.

Now onto your nuclear nonsense: no, Storm Shadow is not a nuclear platform. France has long had ASMP and now ASMP-A- purpose-built supersonic nuclear-tipped cruise missiles tied to their airborne deterrent. Pretending Storm Shadow could “potentially” be nuclear just exposes your ignorance of how warhead miniaturization, safety systems, and delivery platforms actually work. By your logic, we can strap a nuke to any cruise missile and call it “nuclear-capable.” That’s not how deterrence doctrine works.

On Akinci, your kitchen-sink of engine variants actually undercuts your point. The TF-6000 isn’t ready, the AI-322 is imported, and Turkey’s domestic line is still crawling. Far from being a strength, this highlights Ankara’s dependence on stopgap foreign engines while loudly screaming “indigenous” in every press release. It’s the same shell game they’ve been playing for years-look at Altay still struggling for a reliable powerpack while the PR machine calls it “Turkish-made.”

And your MTU fantasy? MTU is not Safran. Why would MTU be in CFM? its between Safran-GE. Oh, and this is the same JV where GE holds all the crown jewels, while Safran has to scrape the bottom of the pot for scraps. MTU has already embedded itself into several major European engine programs, and needs no defending for its technical capabilities. It is THE world leader in cold sections, compressors, and blisks. Heres a rundown of MTU's rich history:

• EJ200 (Eurofighter Typhoon): As a member of the EUROJET consortium, MTU holds a 30% workshare. It is responsible for the development and manufacturing of the low- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the engine's digital control and monitoring unit (DECMU).
• RB199 (Panavia Tornado): This was a highly successful three-shaft turbofan for which MTU independently developed and manufactured the intermediate- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the intermediate-pressure turbine.
• New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE): In the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), MTU is partnered with Safran and ITP Aero to develop the engine for Europe's next-generation fighter. MTU's responsibility includes the compression system, consisting of the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors.
• F110 (F-15/F-16): As a risk-and-revenue-sharing partner of GE Aviation, MTU is a key supplier for this highly successful U.S. fighter engine, manufacturing parts for the turbine's low-pressure compressor and disks.
• F414 (F/A-18 Super Hornet): Another partnership with GE, where MTU produces components for the high- and low-turbine blades.

So, to recap: BMC and its Qatari baggage were very much part of the engine debacle, Kale couldn’t keep RR at the table, Storm Shadow is not a nuclear deterrent, Akinci is still powered by foreign engines, and MTU isn’t Safran. Every single one of your points collapses under basic scrutiny- you’re stringing together false news and pretending it’s analysis.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

This is another masterclass in sloppy half-truths and face-saving gymnastics. First, your “BMC is no longer involved” claim: stop trying to rewrite history. BMC was the Turkish-Qatari partner Rolls-Royce was supposed to work with in the TF-X engine program- and BMC is still 49% Qatari-owned. That stain doesn’t vanish just because TEI later maneuvered into TRMotor. Rolls-Royce itself publicly confirmed it balked at working with BMC specifically because of Qatari ownership and lack of capability. So yes, BMC was central, and yes, Qatar was baked into Turkey’s supposed “indigenous” fighter program. You don’t get to erase that embarrassing fact.

Then you try to pivot to Kale and Rolls-Royce- except Kale was a separate, earlier partner, and even that fell apart because of Turkey’s obsession with keeping foreign partners at arm’s length while demanding full access to intellectual property. If Kale was so effective, why did Rolls-Royce pull back? Answer: because Ankara wanted to strongarm them into tech transfer without guarantees.

Now onto your nuclear nonsense: no, Storm Shadow is not a nuclear platform. France has long had ASMP and now ASMP-A- purpose-built supersonic nuclear-tipped cruise missiles tied to their airborne deterrent. Pretending Storm Shadow could “potentially” be nuclear just exposes your ignorance of how warhead miniaturization, safety systems, and delivery platforms actually work. By your logic, we can strap a nuke to any cruise missile and call it “nuclear-capable.” That’s not how deterrence doctrine works.

On Akinci, your kitchen-sink of engine variants actually undercuts your point. The TF-6000 isn’t ready, the AI-322 is imported, and Turkey’s domestic line is still crawling. Far from being a strength, this highlights Ankara’s dependence on stopgap foreign engines while loudly screaming “indigenous” in every press release. It’s the same shell game they’ve been playing for years-look at Altay still struggling for a reliable powerpack while the PR machine calls it “Turkish-made.”

And your MTU fantasy? MTU is not Safran. Why would MTU be in CFM? its between Safran-GE. Oh, and this is the same JV where GE holds all the crown jewels, while Safran has to scrape the bottom of the pot for scraps. MTU has already embedded itself into several major European engine programs, and needs no defending for its technical capabilities. It is THE world leader in cold sections, compressors, and blisks. Heres a rundown of MTU's rich history:

• EJ200 (Eurofighter Typhoon): As a member of the EUROJET consortium, MTU holds a 30% workshare. It is responsible for the development and manufacturing of the low- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the engine's digital control and monitoring unit (DECMU).
• RB199 (Panavia Tornado): This was a highly successful three-shaft turbofan for which MTU independently developed and manufactured the intermediate- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the intermediate-pressure turbine.
• New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE): In the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), MTU is partnered with Safran and ITP Aero to develop the engine for Europe's next-generation fighter. MTU's responsibility includes the compression system, consisting of the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors.
• F110 (F-15/F-16): As a risk-and-revenue-sharing partner of GE Aviation, MTU is a key supplier for this highly successful U.S. fighter engine, manufacturing parts for the turbine's low-pressure compressor and disks.
• F414 (F/A-18 Super Hornet): Another partnership with GE, where MTU produces components for the high- and low-turbine blades.

So, to recap: BMC and its Qatari baggage were very much part of the engine debacle, Kale couldn’t keep RR at the table, Storm Shadow is not a nuclear deterrent, Akinci is still powered by foreign engines, and MTU isn’t Safran. Every single one of your points collapses under basic scrutiny- you’re stringing together false news and pretending it’s analysis.

BMC is not participating in the tender, since its entire share in TRMotor was bought by TEI. No one cares about BMC, it has had nothing to do with the project since 2024, even indirectly, RR's Turkish partner was Kale group, it does not even belong to BMC. RR never denied Demir's words, who said that Kale group and RR had settled the issues with the rights to the future engine. It is obvious that TEI has already lobbied for its own TRMotor and delegated secondary tasks like APU to Ukrainian Ivchenko-Progress. In 2022, Turkish MOD wanted to merge TRMotor, TAEC (Kale + RR), TEI, but did not move beyond words.
British experts themselves propose installing a nuclear warhead on the Storm Shadow to obtain a tactical nuclear weapon. The plan is so-so, but Britain has no better one yet, although it has already started a short-range ballistic missile project.
Akinci has 3 engine options (AI-450, PW PT6 in two versions), why does it need a jet TF-6000? It is needed for Kizilelma and Anka 3. For Akinci, TEI offers to develop a new engine.
It is clear that MTU does not have 50% even in one consortium, while Safran had half in two companies, and in one of them it did the hot part (it would have continued doing so, but the war began).

 

[Snowstrike]

BMC is not participating in the tender, since its entire share in TRMotor was bought by TEI. No one cares about BMC, it has had nothing to do with the project since 2024, even indirectly, RR's Turkish partner was Kale group, it does not even belong to BMC. RR never denied Demir's words, who said that Kale group and RR had settled the issues with the rights to the future engine. It is obvious that TEI has already lobbied for its own TRMotor and delegated secondary tasks like APU to Ukrainian Ivchenko-Progress. In 2022, TRMotor, TAEC (Kale + RR), TEI wanted to merge, but did not move beyond words.
British experts themselves propose installing a nuclear warhead on the Storm Shadow to obtain a tactical nuclear weapon. The plan is so-so, but Britain has no better one yet, although it has already started a short-range ballistic missile project.
Akinci has 3 engine options (AI-450, PW PT6 in two versions), why does it need a jet TF-6000? It is needed for Kizilelma and Anka 3. For Akinci, TEI offers to develop a new engine.
It is clear that MTU does not have 50% even in one consortium, while Safran had half in two companies, and in one of them it did the hot part (it would have continued doing so, but the war began).

You’re butchering facts and pretending it’s analysis. BMC’s exit from TRMotor in 2024 didn’t “cleanse” the program- it just meant TEI consolidated control. The key point is that Kale–RR (TAEC) collapsed, and if RR really had “settled” IP issues as you claim, they wouldn’t have walked away. That shows the rights weren’t solved, the partnership was dead. TEI’s so-called “independence” is hollow- they still lean on Ivchenko-Progress for APUs because Turkey cannot produce even those subsystems in-house. Your “merger talks” of 2022? Exactly that: talks. Zero legal mergers, zero tech exchange.

Your Storm Shadow nuclear nonsense is laughable- the UK’s actual deterrent is Trident II SLBMs, not bolting warheads onto aging cruise missiles. The “nuclear Storm Shadow” was a speculative think-tank musing, not a government program. Akinci? Stop mixing platforms. It’s a turboprop UCAV, using AI-450 or PT6 engines. The TF-6000 is for Kızılelma and Anka-3, jet UCAVs-acting like its a revelation is comedy gold. And as for TEI “offering” new Akinci engines, nothing is in serial production- it’s future brochureware, not capability. You cant just slap a jet engine on a turboprop (propeller) platform and call it a day- pretending otherwise proves your lack of basic knowledge on this topic.

Finally, comparing MTU to Safran is pure cope. Safran had 50% in CFM and Powerjet. And of course, the Safran-Saturn partnership produced civilian engines for civilian aircraft. Pretending that translate into military engine experience is just ridiculous, again, proving you do not care about facts. MTU has had other experiences with engines and had equal status in several fighter engine programs. Not sure why you keep beating your chest and yelling 'Safran is in CFM! Safran is the best!'. Everyone knows GE holds the crown jewels and keeps core tech under a tight leash, while Safran is delegated to a subcontractor role. and as for MTU? it looks like you didnt read my previous message: I had a whole article on MTU's pioneering work on military engines. Here, let me paste them for you AGAIN:

• EJ200 (Eurofighter Typhoon): As a member of the EUROJET consortium, MTU holds a 30% workshare. It is responsible for the development and manufacturing of the low- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the engine's digital control and monitoring unit (DECMU).
• RB199 (Panavia Tornado): This was a highly successful three-shaft turbofan for which MTU independently developed and manufactured the intermediate- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the intermediate-pressure turbine.
• New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE): In the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), MTU is partnered with Safran and ITP Aero to develop the engine for Europe's next-generation fighter. MTU's responsibility includes the compression system, consisting of the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors.
• F110 (F-15/F-16): As a risk-and-revenue-sharing partner of GE Aviation, MTU is a key supplier for this highly successful U.S. fighter engine, manufacturing parts for the turbine's low-pressure compressor and disks.
• F414 (F/A-18 Super Hornet): Another partnership with GE, where MTU produces components for the high- and low-turbine blades.

Your take of 'Germany bad, no tech' collapses instantly when presented with their actual contributions- like I said earlier, MTU is a world leader in cold-section technology, blisks, and turbines. Claiming otherwise proves you dont have the slightest regard for reality or truth. Its simple: No MTU, No EJ200.

Overall, you just repeated what you said last time, ignoring any real facts in exchange for rhetoric.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

You’re butchering facts and pretending it’s analysis. BMC’s exit from TRMotor in 2024 didn’t “cleanse” the program- it just meant TEI consolidated control. The key point is that Kale–RR (TAEC) collapsed, and if RR really had “settled” IP issues as you claim, they wouldn’t have walked away. That shows the rights weren’t solved, the partnership was dead. TEI’s so-called “independence” is hollow- they still lean on Ivchenko-Progress for APUs because Turkey cannot produce even those subsystems in-house. Your “merger talks” of 2022? Exactly that: talks. Zero legal mergers, zero tech exchange.

Your Storm Shadow nuclear nonsense is laughable- the UK’s actual deterrent is Trident II SLBMs, not bolting warheads onto aging cruise missiles. The “nuclear Storm Shadow” was a speculative think-tank musing, not a government program. Akinci? Stop mixing platforms. It’s a turboprop UCAV, using AI-450 or PT6 engines. The TF-6000 is for Kızılelma and Anka-3, jet UCAVs-acting like its a revelation is comedy gold. And as for TEI “offering” new Akinci engines, nothing is in serial production- it’s future brochureware, not capability. You cant just slap a jet engine on a turboprop (propeller) platform and call it a day- pretending otherwise proves your lack of basic knowledge on this topic.

Finally, comparing MTU to Safran is pure cope. Safran had 50% in CFM and Powerjet. And of course, the Safran-Saturn partnership produced civilian engines for civilian aircraft. Pretending that translate into military engine experience is just ridiculous, again, proving you do not care about facts. MTU has had other experiences with engines and had equal status in several fighter engine programs. Not sure why you keep beating your chest and yelling 'Safran is in CFM! Safran is the best!'. Everyone knows GE holds the crown jewels and keeps core tech under a tight leash, while Safran is delegated to a subcontractor role. and as for MTU? it looks like you didnt read my previous message: I had a whole article on MTU's pioneering work on military engines. Here, let me paste them for you AGAIN:

• EJ200 (Eurofighter Typhoon): As a member of the EUROJET consortium, MTU holds a 30% workshare. It is responsible for the development and manufacturing of the low- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the engine's digital control and monitoring unit (DECMU).
• RB199 (Panavia Tornado): This was a highly successful three-shaft turbofan for which MTU independently developed and manufactured the intermediate- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the intermediate-pressure turbine.
• New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE): In the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), MTU is partnered with Safran and ITP Aero to develop the engine for Europe's next-generation fighter. MTU's responsibility includes the compression system, consisting of the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors.
• F110 (F-15/F-16): As a risk-and-revenue-sharing partner of GE Aviation, MTU is a key supplier for this highly successful U.S. fighter engine, manufacturing parts for the turbine's low-pressure compressor and disks.
• F414 (F/A-18 Super Hornet): Another partnership with GE, where MTU produces components for the high- and low-turbine blades.

Your take of 'Germany bad, no tech' collapses instantly when presented with their actual contributions- like I said earlier, MTU is a world leader in cold-section technology, blisks, and turbines. Claiming otherwise proves you dont have the slightest regard for reality or truth. Its simple: No MTU, No EJ200.

Overall, you just repeated what you said last time, ignoring any real facts in exchange for rhetoric.

BMC is no longer involved in the project, as it sold its entire stake in TRMotor, the developer of the engine for Kaan, therefore Qatar has nothing to do with the TF-35000. TAEC was simply no longer needed, although the intellectual property issues of Kale and RR were resolved back in 2022. The APU is a secondary part that was given to a conditionally allied state so as not to waste time and money, since the rights to the APU are still in the hands of TEI. So I say that Ismail Demir wanted to merge them in March 2022, but then changed his mind. Nonsense is the British experts who propose making Storm Shadow a tactical nuclear weapon, but apparently it will be a short-range ballistic missile under the Nightfall project. Britain's Trident, judging by a series of unsuccessful launches, is in poor condition, and the Trident itself has not been produced for a long time. Akinci are not new anymore, they use 3 engine options to choose from, TEI offers to develop a Turkish engine for it if Baykar needs it and pays for the contract. TF-6000 is needed for Kizilelma and Anka 3, but for the first batches of Kizilelma, AI-322F will be used until the production line and certification of TF-6000 are completed. Should I remind you of Safran's experience with PW, GE, RR? Should I remind you that Safran has 50% in CFM and had 50% in PowerJet before the war? Why doesn't MTU create a concern where it will have 50%, if even the "backward" Safran has as many as 2 such partnerships? There are not only engine parts, but also new lubricants, Safran also buys engine repair companies, that is, experience and capabilities are only growing.
Moreover, Safran produces the "cold section" and low-pressure compressors right now, right now it produces the "hot section" for the M88, before the war in Ukraine it produced the hot section of the SaM-146, in that case, who has more experience? Safran's role in CFM is those same low-pressure turbines and more that MTU "supposedly makes better".

 

[Snowstrike]

BMC is no longer involved in the project, as it sold its entire stake in TRMotor, the developer of the engine for Kaan, therefore Qatar has nothing to do with the TF-35000. TAEC was simply no longer needed, although the intellectual property issues of Kale and RR were resolved back in 2022. The APU is a secondary part that was given to a conditionally allied state so as not to waste time and money, since the rights to the APU are still in the hands of TEI. So I say that Ismail Demir wanted to merge them in March 2022, but then changed his mind. Nonsense is the British experts who propose making Storm Shadow a tactical nuclear weapon, but apparently it will be a short-range ballistic missile under the Nightfall project. Britain's Trident, judging by a series of unsuccessful launches, is in poor condition, and the Trident itself has not been produced for a long time. Akinci are not new anymore, they use 3 engine options to choose from, TEI offers to develop a Turkish engine for it if Baykar needs it and pays for the contract. TF-6000 is needed for Kizilelma and Anka 3, but for the first batches of Kizilelma, AI-322F will be used until the production line and certification of TF-6000 are completed. Should I remind you of Safran's experience with PW, GE, RR? Should I remind you that Safran has 50% in CFM and had 50% in PowerJet before the war? Why doesn't MTU create a concern where it will have 50%, if even the "backward" Safran has as many as 2 such partnerships? There are not only engine parts, but also new lubricants, Safran also buys engine repair companies, that is, experience and capabilities are only growing.
Moreover, Safran produces the "cold section" and low-pressure compressors right now, right now it produces the "hot section" for the M88, before the war in Ukraine it produced the hot section of the SaM-146, in that case, who has more experience? Safran's role in CFM is those same low-pressure turbines and more that MTU "supposedly makes better".

You’re parroting headlines again and hoping nobody notices you’ve got the technical depth of a puddle. Yes, BMC dumped its TRMotor stake after RR flatly refused to continue if they didnt- nobody ever argued otherwise. That doesn’t magically make Qatar’s absence “proof” of program strength; it just means the state had to circle the wagons around TEI because RR/Kale (TAEC) collapsed. If “IP issues were solved in 2022” like you keep saying, then why did RR completely pull the plug in 2023? Newsflash: you don’t walk away from a multi-billion-dollar fighter engine if everything’s peachy. And of course, you just love spewing Turkish propaganda, dont you? the same Turkey was chasing the ToT and IP of the EJ200, demanding full IP. RR couldn't agree to that, hence the deal fell through. Then, the Turks had to resort to an indigenous engine, which is currently a brochure. Which is when the Turkish government began its propaganda run, with people like I. Demir saying that 'IP issues were resolved', and that they had chosen to go with an indigenous engine because of technical superiority. After all, what can we expect from an authoritarian state? they wanna save face and avoid humiliation.

Your APU take is equally dumb. If TEI had full rights, they wouldn’t need Ivchenko-Progress at all. Outsourcing basic APUs screams weakness, not pragmatism. And your “Demir merger” point? Empty talk. No legal framework, no combined entity, no IP transfers. Just words- like your posts.

Now onto the comedy show: nuclear Storm Shadows. That was never a real MoD plan, it was some armchair think-tank idea.- god knows why you keep parroting that. Britain’s actual deterrent is Trident D5, and despite one test failure you keep recycling, it’s still the backbone of NATO’s sea-based nuke force. The UK extended Trident’s life until 2042, with fresh contracts for warheads and submarines. If you think “failed tests = whole project finished,” then by that logic every missile in the world should be scrapped.

Your Akinci/TF-6000 babble is even worse. Akinci is turboprop-only. Period. The TF-6000 is a jet turbofan for Kızılelma and Anka-3. TEI dangling an “Akinci engine” is pure vaporware, no contract, no production, just marketing noise. Stop blending platforms like you’re stirring soup.

Now, the MTU vs Safran part- where you finally expose your ignorance completely. Safran’s “50%” in CFM and PowerJet doesn’t mean equal capability. Safran historically focused on the cold section, fans, and LPTs. The M88’s hot section you love bragging about? A tiny-volume, underpowered engine (75kN) that no plane outside France ever adopted. PowerJet SaM146? A complete fiasco, stranded after sanctions, and Safran abandoned the hot section when it went nowhere. Meanwhile, MTU isn’t chasing vanity projects- it has real stakes in Eurojet EJ200 (core modules), PW1100G (geared turbofan core modules), and the GE9X supply chain. MTU’s competence lies in turbine technology, durability, and services-not PR stunts.

So when you sneer “why doesn’t MTU make its own 50% consortium?” it’s because MTU doesn’t need to inflate itself. Safran inflates because its indigenous engines can’t stand on their own- every major French program (M88, SaM146, Silvercrest) has been low-thrust, low-volume, or a disaster. MTU quietly builds and services core sections of the world’s biggest engines, and unlike Safran, doesn’t leave behind a trail of failed “national engines” nobody wants. And you conveniently like to forget the fact that MTU was one of the most important contributors to the EJ200- they led the cold section development, LPTs, blisks, and the DECMU (the brain) of the engine. Oh, and to put the nail in the coffin for your rhetoric? In the FCAS engine which is a co-dev between MTU and Safran, MTU is leading the cold section development, and its niches of blisks and LPTs like I mentioned before- so stop publishing lies. Your favorite people, the French, themselves acknowledge that MTU's experience is necessary. If Safran could do it themselves, they wouldnt need MTU for it.

In short: Safran has hype, MTU has credibility. MTU is the world leader in niches like LPTs, blisks, and cold-sections, while Safran is a capable runner-up. You calling Safran “more experienced” is like saying Peugeot has more experience than Porsche because they both make engines. Delusional.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

You’re parroting headlines again and hoping nobody notices you’ve got the technical depth of a puddle. Yes, BMC dumped its TRMotor stake after RR flatly refused to continue if they didnt- nobody ever argued otherwise. That doesn’t magically make Qatar’s absence “proof” of program strength; it just means the state had to circle the wagons around TEI because RR/Kale (TAEC) collapsed. If “IP issues were solved in 2022” like you keep saying, then why did RR completely pull the plug in 2023? Newsflash: you don’t walk away from a multi-billion-dollar fighter engine if everything’s peachy. And of course, you just love spewing Turkish propaganda, dont you? the same Turkey was chasing the ToT and IP of the EJ200, demanding full IP. RR couldn't agree to that, hence the deal fell through. Then, the Turks had to resort to an indigenous engine, which is currently a brochure. Which is when the Turkish government began its propaganda run, with people like I. Demir saying that 'IP issues were resolved', and that they had chosen to go with an indigenous engine because of technical superiority. After all, what can we expect from an authoritarian state? they wanna save face and avoid humiliation.

Your APU take is equally dumb. If TEI had full rights, they wouldn’t need Ivchenko-Progress at all. Outsourcing basic APUs screams weakness, not pragmatism. And your “Demir merger” point? Empty talk. No legal framework, no combined entity, no IP transfers. Just words- like your posts.

Now onto the comedy show: nuclear Storm Shadows. That was never a real MoD plan, it was some armchair think-tank idea.- god knows why you keep parroting that. Britain’s actual deterrent is Trident D5, and despite one test failure you keep recycling, it’s still the backbone of NATO’s sea-based nuke force. The UK extended Trident’s life until 2042, with fresh contracts for warheads and submarines. If you think “failed tests = whole project finished,” then by that logic every missile in the world should be scrapped.

Your Akinci/TF-6000 babble is even worse. Akinci is turboprop-only. Period. The TF-6000 is a jet turbofan for Kızılelma and Anka-3. TEI dangling an “Akinci engine” is pure vaporware, no contract, no production, just marketing noise. Stop blending platforms like you’re stirring soup.

Now, the MTU vs Safran part- where you finally expose your ignorance completely. Safran’s “50%” in CFM and PowerJet doesn’t mean equal capability. Safran historically focused on the cold section, fans, and LPTs. The M88’s hot section you love bragging about? A tiny-volume, underpowered engine (75kN) that no plane outside France ever adopted. PowerJet SaM146? A complete fiasco, stranded after sanctions, and Safran abandoned the hot section when it went nowhere. Meanwhile, MTU isn’t chasing vanity projects- it has real stakes in Eurojet EJ200 (core modules), PW1100G (geared turbofan core modules), and the GE9X supply chain. MTU’s competence lies in turbine technology, durability, and services-not PR stunts.

So when you sneer “why doesn’t MTU make its own 50% consortium?” it’s because MTU doesn’t need to inflate itself. Safran inflates because its indigenous engines can’t stand on their own- every major French program (M88, SaM146, Silvercrest) has been low-thrust, low-volume, or a disaster. MTU quietly builds and services core sections of the world’s biggest engines, and unlike Safran, doesn’t leave behind a trail of failed “national engines” nobody wants. And you conveniently like to forget the fact that MTU was one of the most important contributors to the EJ200- they led the cold section development, LPTs, blisks, and the DECMU (the brain) of the engine. Oh, and to put the nail in the coffin for your rhetoric? In the FCAS engine which is a co-dev between MTU and Safran, MTU is leading the cold section development, and its niches of blisks and LPTs like I mentioned before- so stop publishing lies. Your favorite people, the French, themselves acknowledge that MTU's experience is necessary. If Safran could do it themselves, they wouldnt need MTU for it.

In short: Safran has hype, MTU has credibility. MTU is the world leader in niches like LPTs, blisks, and cold-sections, while Safran is a capable runner-up. You calling Safran “more experienced” is like saying Peugeot has more experience than Porsche because they both make engines. Delusional.

TRMotor (Where BMC had a share) and TAEC (Kale + RR) do not intersect, they are 2 different concerns. This means that TRMotor has taken on a difficult task and in case of failure, TEI will be to blame and the contract may well go to Kale, but judging by the successes and the increase in Turkey's defense budget, TEI is optimistic. He terminated the partnership due to losing the tender. I just watched the interviews of the chief designers (They were translated into English) of the Kaan program, I see successes in engine manufacturing in Turkey, I see how the Turks buy advanced equipment and spend a lot of money on military research, why should I deny their successes? Maybe RR and the Turkish government secretly agreed on assistance, this could help explain Turkey's technological leap, but so far there is no evidence of this. RR did not offer the EJ200, which it does not fully own, but the development of a new engine using EJ200 technologies. In the democratic USA, the plaintiffs against Boeing died "completely by accident", so the form of government plays a very small role here, totalitarian China often confirms its words with a real demonstration, for example. Ivchenko-Progress is developing the APU with the transfer of rights to Turkey. A very pragmatic move, instead of wasting time and equipment.

One of the most authoritative British "cabinet centers", by the way. 2 unsuccessful launches in a row, and in the last case with damage to the carrier. Trident has not been produced for a long time, this is their main problem, as in the case of the American Minuteman. TEI did not receive a contract from Baykar, why should it develop an engine for its own money? TEI talks about the possibility of creating it in case of payment, but so far the US and Ukraine have not imposed an embargo on the supply of engines for Akinci, therefore there is no demand. Ukraine will certainly not impose it, since it is a country with leaky pockets. Safran produced the hot section for the SaM-146, which is installed on the Sukhoi SuperJet. Safran produces the hot section for the M88, Safran produces the cold section for CFM and is a contractor for other companies. SuperJet does not need high thrust, as it is a regional aircraft, low thrust of M88 (not much lower than EJ200) is due to compactness and underfunding, and Safran has already started work on increasing the power by 30% in approximately the same dimensions. Again, Safran (Snecma) had a more powerful M53, so what? Considering that the EJ200 is based on the English XG-40, it was probably highly modified. Moreover, even the M53 had the potential to increase thrust in the same dimensions, but since the Mirage 2000 assembly line was closed prematurely, this version remained a prototype.

Safran is capable of creating a new engine, but what will MTU do if Germany leaves FCAS? Especially since Safran will be developing 3 projects simultaneously - a new version of the M88, an engine for AMCA and an engine for FCAS.

 

[Snowstrike]

TRMotor (Where BMC had a share) and TAEC (Kale + RR) do not intersect, they are 2 different concerns. This means that TRMotor has taken on a difficult task and in case of failure, TEI will be to blame and the contract may well go to Kale, but judging by the successes and the increase in Turkey's defense budget, TEI is optimistic. He terminated the partnership due to losing the tender. I just watched the interviews of the chief designers (They were translated into English) of the Kaan program, I see successes in engine manufacturing in Turkey, I see how the Turks buy advanced equipment and spend a lot of money on military research, why should I deny their successes? Maybe RR and the Turkish government secretly agreed on assistance, this could help explain Turkey's technological leap, but so far there is no evidence of this. RR did not offer the EJ200, which it does not fully own, but the development of a new engine using EJ200 technologies. In the democratic USA, the plaintiffs against Boeing died "completely by accident", so the form of government plays a very small role here, totalitarian China often confirms its words with a real demonstration, for example. Ivchenko-Progress is developing the APU with the transfer of rights to Turkey. A very pragmatic move, instead of wasting time and equipment.

One of the most authoritative British "cabinet centers", by the way. 2 unsuccessful launches in a row, and in the last case with damage to the carrier. Trident has not been produced for a long time, this is their main problem, as in the case of the American Minuteman. TEI did not receive a contract from Baykar, why should it develop an engine for its own money? TEI talks about the possibility of creating it in case of payment, but so far the US and Ukraine have not imposed an embargo on the supply of engines for Akinci, therefore there is no demand. Ukraine will certainly not impose it, since it is a country with leaky pockets. Safran produced the hot section for the SaM-146, which is installed on the Sukhoi SuperJet. Safran produces the hot section for the M88, Safran produces the cold section for CFM and is a contractor for other companies. SuperJet does not need high thrust, as it is a regional aircraft, low thrust of M88 (not much lower than EJ200) is due to compactness and underfunding, and Safran has already started work on increasing the power by 30% in approximately the same dimensions. Again, Safran (Snecma) had a more powerful M53, so what? Considering that the EJ200 is based on the English XG-40, it was probably highly modified. Moreover, even the M53 had the potential to increase thrust in the same dimensions, but since the Mirage 2000 assembly line was closed prematurely, this version remained a prototype.

Safran is capable of creating a new engine, but what will MTU do if Germany leaves FCAS? Especially since Safran will be developing 3 projects simultaneously - a new version of the M88, an engine for AMCA and an engine for FCAS.

Yes, TRMotor and TAEC are different entities- congratulations, you can read an org chart. But the reason Ankara keeps floating the idea of merging TEI, TRMotor, and TAEC is because they don’t have the complete stack to field a modern fighter engine. Buying some five-axis machines and announcing “optimism” doesn’t suddenly mean you’ve cracked single-crystal blade casting, advanced TBCs, or high-pressure compressor stability. That’s the part everyone struggles with, and no, you don’t brute-force your way through it with budget increases. The whole “Turkey’s leap forward must mean RR secretly helped them” is just a plain conspiracy.

And the RR/EJ200 bit? Again, you’re twisting reality. RR didn’t “refuse to offer the EJ20” because it’s not theirs alone to give away. It’s a shared IP across RR, MTU, Avio, and ITP. What was on the table was a co-developed new engine using EJ200 experience. That’s how the real world works: shared development, shared risk, shared IP. Meanwhile, pretending that “TEI optimism” is the same as flight-certified, high-thrust engines is like saying buying a treadmill makes you Usain Bolt. The deal fell through because of Turkey's demands on ToT and IP- they demanded 100% of everything, which was unacceptable to RR, hence RR pulled out. And of course, Turkey, being an authoritarian state, didn't want to be seen red-faced, and spewed propaganda throughout claiming 'IP issues were resolved' and that they 'choose an indigenous engine because its better'. You took what they served and gulped it down obviously, since your parroting the same thing over and over.

Then you veered off into Trident and Minuteman like you’re trying to pad a term paper. A couple of bad test launches don’t mean “deterrent collapse.” Trident II D5/D5LE has one of the strongest reliability records in SLBM history. You seem to ignore the fact that the Trident has been reliable through hundreds of successful launches and tests, yet you like to cherry-pick two incidents- again proving your personal bias and political intentions.

Now, about Safran. Yes, they do the M88 hot section. In CFM, GE keeps the crown jewels (hot section, etc) under lock-and-key, while Safran is relegated to the role of a subcontractor for the other systems. However, no one disputes they can design. But your “Safran can just whip up a 30% uprated M88 while also handling AMCA and FCAS engines” is a joke. This stuff takes years, test rigs, validation loops, and supply chain depth. They’re already stretched with three concurrent programs- you can’t run infinite development projects just because a PowerPoint slide says so.

And now the M53 propaganda: its laughable how you tout it as some 'engineering marvel' of the future, when in reality it is a highly inefficient, old, and obsolete engine. It has horrible efficiency, dimensions, weight, and its T/W ratio- it is decisively outclassed by every modern engine available. Heres an example:

Feature M53 AL31F
Dry thrust 64.7kn 76.49kn
Wet thrust 95.1kn 122.6kn
T/W 6.5:1 8.22:1
Weight 3340 lbs 3350 lbs

Plus, the fact that the M53 is a single-spool engine is the nail in the coffin- modern dual-spoon or multi-spool engines outclass it in every way.

And MTU? Stop writing them off like they’re just bolting parts together. MTU is the design authority on key EJ200 modules and specializes in life-cycle management, blisks, and sustainment-basically the parts of the engine that stop it from eating itself alive after 200 cycles. Without MTU, Europe doesn’t have a sustainable 5th-gen engine ecosystem. Your “what will MTU do if Germany leaves FCAS?” line just exposes that you don’t even follow the program. Your favorites, the French, themselves acknowledge that MTU's expertise and niches are required for the FCAS engine program. It is widely known that MTU is the world leader in cold-section tech, pioneering blisks, LPTs, etc. They have a niche which they dominate in. In the FCAS, the engine depends on both Safran and MTU, the airframe pillar runs on both Dassault and Airbus, and the EW depends heavily on Hensoldt/Airbus DE/ES. Remove Germany, and you don't have FCAS- you have a press release.

As for TEI and Baykar, yes, Akinci flies on Ukrainian and Western turboprops. TEI has floated the idea of a homegrown one “if someone pays for it.” That’s not an accomplishment, that’s a sales pitch. None of that translates into producing a 35,000 lbf-class stealth turbofan. It’s apples to oranges, but you keep throwing it in like it matters. And don't get me started on the way you seem to think that they can put a turbofan engine on a turboprop (propeller)-based platform. It's ridiculous, and highlights your extreme lack of knowledge in even the most basic points.

So, reality check for you: TEI/TRMotor are making progress, but they’re nowhere near having a flight-proven 5th-gen engine. RR’s JV died on politics, not because “Turkey was too advanced.” Trident is alive and well, not collapsing. Safran is stretched thin already. MTU is absolutely critical, not replaceable. And FCAS without Germany? Pure fantasy. So maybe stop cobbling together lines from propaganda, and look at real data.

 

[智子 伊瀬]

Yes, TRMotor and TAEC are different entities- congratulations, you can read an org chart. But the reason Ankara keeps floating the idea of merging TEI, TRMotor, and TAEC is because they don’t have the complete stack to field a modern fighter engine. Buying some five-axis machines and announcing “optimism” doesn’t suddenly mean you’ve cracked single-crystal blade casting, advanced TBCs, or high-pressure compressor stability. That’s the part everyone struggles with, and no, you don’t brute-force your way through it with budget increases. The whole “Turkey’s leap forward must mean RR secretly helped them” is just a plain conspiracy.

And the RR/EJ200 bit? Again, you’re twisting reality. RR didn’t “refuse to offer the EJ20” because it’s not theirs alone to give away. It’s a shared IP across RR, MTU, Avio, and ITP. What was on the table was a co-developed new engine using EJ200 experience. That’s how the real world works: shared development, shared risk, shared IP. Meanwhile, pretending that “TEI optimism” is the same as flight-certified, high-thrust engines is like saying buying a treadmill makes you Usain Bolt. The deal fell through because of Turkey's demands on ToT and IP- they demanded 100% of everything, which was unacceptable to RR, hence RR pulled out. And of course, Turkey, being an authoritarian state, didn't want to be seen red-faced, and spewed propaganda throughout claiming 'IP issues were resolved' and that they 'choose an indigenous engine because its better'. You took what they served and gulped it down obviously, since your parroting the same thing over and over.

Then you veered off into Trident and Minuteman like you’re trying to pad a term paper. A couple of bad test launches don’t mean “deterrent collapse.” Trident II D5/D5LE has one of the strongest reliability records in SLBM history. You seem to ignore the fact that the Trident has been reliable through hundreds of successful launches and tests, yet you like to cherry-pick two incidents- again proving your personal bias and political intentions.

Now, about Safran. Yes, they do the M88 hot section. In CFM, GE keeps the crown jewels (hot section, etc) under lock-and-key, while Safran is relegated to the role of a subcontractor for the other systems. However, no one disputes they can design. But your “Safran can just whip up a 30% uprated M88 while also handling AMCA and FCAS engines” is a joke. This stuff takes years, test rigs, validation loops, and supply chain depth. They’re already stretched with three concurrent programs- you can’t run infinite development projects just because a PowerPoint slide says so.

And now the M53 propaganda: its laughable how you tout it as some 'engineering marvel' of the future, when in reality it is a highly inefficient, old, and obsolete engine. It has horrible efficiency, dimensions, weight, and its T/W ratio- it is decisively outclassed by every modern engine available. Heres an example:

Feature M53 AL31F
Dry thrust 64.7kn 76.49kn
Wet thrust 95.1kn 122.6kn
T/W 6.5:1 8.22:1
Weight 3340 lbs 3350 lbs

Plus, the fact that the M53 is a single-spool engine is the nail in the coffin- modern dual-spoon or multi-spool engines outclass it in every way.

And MTU? Stop writing them off like they’re just bolting parts together. MTU is the design authority on key EJ200 modules and specializes in life-cycle management, blisks, and sustainment-basically the parts of the engine that stop it from eating itself alive after 200 cycles. Without MTU, Europe doesn’t have a sustainable 5th-gen engine ecosystem. Your “what will MTU do if Germany leaves FCAS?” line just exposes that you don’t even follow the program. Your favorites, the French, themselves acknowledge that MTU's expertise and niches are required for the FCAS engine program. It is widely known that MTU is the world leader in cold-section tech, pioneering blisks, LPTs, etc. They have a niche which they dominate in. In the FCAS, the engine depends on both Safran and MTU, the airframe pillar runs on both Dassault and Airbus, and the EW depends heavily on Hensoldt/Airbus DE/ES. Remove Germany, and you don't have FCAS- you have a press release.

As for TEI and Baykar, yes, Akinci flies on Ukrainian and Western turboprops. TEI has floated the idea of a homegrown one “if someone pays for it.” That’s not an accomplishment, that’s a sales pitch. None of that translates into producing a 35,000 lbf-class stealth turbofan. It’s apples to oranges, but you keep throwing it in like it matters. And don't get me started on the way you seem to think that they can put a turbofan engine on a turboprop (propeller)-based platform. It's ridiculous, and highlights your extreme lack of knowledge in even the most basic points.

So, reality check for you: TEI/TRMotor are making progress, but they’re nowhere near having a flight-proven 5th-gen engine. RR’s JV died on politics, not because “Turkey was too advanced.” Trident is alive and well, not collapsing. Safran is stretched thin already. MTU is absolutely critical, not replaceable. And FCAS without Germany? Pure fantasy. So maybe stop cobbling together lines from propaganda, and look at real data.

TAEC lost the tender to TRMotor(TEI). RR offered an engine using EJ200 technology, but not the documentation for the EJ200, since RR never had full possession of it. It may well be just a theory, but the USAID's declassification of activities has shown that many conspiracy theories had some basis in fact, however this is a digression. As Ismail Demir said, the problems with RR were solved, but TAEC still lost the tender. Turkey, being an authoritarian state, is moving forward, the first flight of Kaan was a year earlier than the original plan. At least there was no denial of Demir's words from RR, and the democratic form of government did not save several plaintiffs against Boeing from death. And it does not prevent totalitarian China from demonstrating success in technological development. British nuclear forces clearly require large investments, otherwise the decline will continue. In the meantime, France successfully launches the M51 again. Since when did Britain make a hundred launches? So, Safran also makes the compressors and low-pressure turbines, so MTU has no advantage. Safran made the hot part of the SaM-146, it makes the hot part for the M88, which MTU does not do anywhere. All this requires money first of all, but Mr. Putin helped increase France's defense budget by attacking Ukraine, there are no problems with this now. The M53 was about on par in terms of technology with the RB199, which was produced at the same time by a concern from 3 countries.As for the M53, it is 100+mm narrower than the Al-31F. The engines of the USSR and Russia are superior to the engines of Turbo-Union and EuroJet, and not just Snecma/Safran
Why would TEI develop an engine for a private company, Baykar, at its own expense? Engines were developed for drones operated by the state-owned TAI. At the moment, neither the US nor Ukraine imposes an embargo, so why develop an engine for Akinci out of nowhere?

 

[Snowstrike]

TAEC lost the tender to TRMotor(TEI). RR offered an engine using EJ200 technology, but not the documentation for the EJ200, since RR never had full possession of it. It may well be just a theory, but the USAID's declassification of activities has shown that many conspiracy theories had some basis in fact, however this is a digression. As Ismail Demir said, the problems with RR were solved, but TAEC still lost the tender. Turkey, being an authoritarian state, is moving forward, the first flight of Kaan was a year earlier than the original plan. At least there was no denial of Demir's words from RR, and the democratic form of government did not save several plaintiffs against Boeing from death. And it does not prevent totalitarian China from demonstrating success in technological development. British nuclear forces clearly require large investments, otherwise the decline will continue. In the meantime, France successfully launches the M51 again. Since when did Britain make a hundred launches? So, Safran also makes the compressors and low-pressure turbines, so MTU has no advantage. Safran made the hot part of the SaM-146, it makes the hot part for the M88, which MTU does not do anywhere. All this requires money first of all, but Mr. Putin helped increase France's defense budget by attacking Ukraine, there are no problems with this now. The M53 was about on par in terms of technology with the RB199, which was produced at the same time by a concern from 3 countries.As for the M53, it is 100+mm narrower than the Al-31F. The engines of the USSR and Russia are superior to the engines of Turbo-Union and EuroJet, and not just Snecma/Safran
Why would TEI develop an engine for a private company, Baykar, at its own expense? Engines were developed for drones operated by the state-owned TAI. At the moment, neither the US nor Ukraine imposes an embargo, so why develop an engine for Akinci out of nowhere?

Alright, lemme torch this rant again:

First off, your whole “TAEC lost, therefore RR was useless” spiel is just lazy. RR never had “full possession” of the EJ200 IP because it was never theirs alone- it’s a Eurojet consortium product. Suggesting they could just hand over documentation is like claiming Boeing can sell off Lockheed’s F-35 schematics. It’s technically illiterate nonsense. Demir’s “the problems were solved” statement was political spin, not a miracle cure. If RR really gave Turkey unrestricted rights, why did TAEC lose? Exactly. The Turkish government wanted full ToT and all the IP- something RR flatly refused, and walked away when the Turks didn't budge. They were drooling over RR's offer until getting rudely awoken by them walking out of the deal because of their unreasonable terms. And we all know what happens when an authoritarian state is left red-faced- propaganda. You seem to have gobbled it all up, and now your spewing it out here. False.

Then your “Turkey flew Kaan a year earlier” flex- congratulations, you rushed a prototype into the air. You know what that proves? That a stripped-down demonstrator with foreign engines and half-baked systems can take off, circle, and land. That’s PR, not industrial maturity. Do you have single-crystal turbine production validated? High-cycle fatigue test beds running thousands of hours? Certified FADEC running fault redundancy under NATO standards? No. You’ve got a press release and a taxi-test turned joyride. Calling that parity with actual industrial bases is delusional.

Your UK/Trident jab is embarrassing. Britain’s deterrent didn’t vanish because of one test misfire. Strategic programs run test campaigns, fix failures, and move on. Meanwhile, France launching M51 again isn’t some “proof that Britain is finished,” it’s just France doing what it always does: invest in nuclear, because that’s its doctrine. Britain doesn’t need to continuously launch them to prove its deterrent- it’s called continuous at-sea deterrence, something you clearly don’t understand. Trying to dunk on the UK by pretending one bad test equals collapse is schoolyard-tier analysis.

Now, the Safran vs MTU brain-fart. You really think making one hot section automatically makes Safran king? MTU is not some vendor making bolts and washers- they are design authority for EJ200 modules, blisk production leaders, and sustainment kings across multiple NATO engines. Safran’s M88 hot section is fine, but MTU does what actually matters long-term: keeping engines alive for decades at combat readiness. If you think “who made the turbine this time” wins the argument, you don’t understand how propulsion programs work. Oh, and you keep yelling 'Safran is in CFM! Safran made powerjet!' from the rooftops and beat your chest over it. What a joke. GE keeps the critical engine parts under a tight leash, while Safran is relegated to the role of a subcontractor for other parts, and perhaps gets to scrape some of GE's tech from the bottom of the bowl. And powerjet? another humiliation for you. It's a civilian engine made by Safran and Saturn- pretending it equates to military hot-section know-how is ridiculous propaganda. Plus if you didn't realize, the Safran-Saturn partnership is dead. It ended in 2022- 3 years ago. All the while MTU has embedded itself in nearly every major military engine development program- contracts with GE/P&W for LPTs and MROs, the entire DECMU + cold section, LPTs, blisks, and turbines for EJ200, with 30% of the total IP is no joke. Like I said earlier: the French themselves acknowledge they need MTU's expertise in this niche for the FCAS. Since you seem to have had my chart from earlier fly over your head, here it is again:

• EJ200 (Eurofighter Typhoon): As a major member of the Eurojet consortium, MTU holds a 30% workshare. It is responsible for the development and manufacturing of the low- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the engine's digital control and monitoring unit (DECMU). It also pioneered advanced blisks, LPTs, and cold-section tech for it.
• RB199 (Panavia Tornado): This was a highly successful three-shaft turbofan for which MTU independently developed and manufactured the intermediate- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the intermediate-pressure turbine.
• New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE): In the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), MTU is partnered with Safran and ITP Aero to develop the engine for Europe's next-generation fighter. MTU's responsibility includes the compression system, consisting of the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors.
• F110 (F-15/F-16): As a risk-and-revenue-sharing partner of GE Aviation, MTU is a key supplier for this highly successful U.S. fighter engine, manufacturing parts for the turbine's low-pressure compressor and disks.
• F414 (F/A-18 Super Hornet): Another partnership with GE, where MTU produces components for the high- and low-turbine blades.

MTU is a world leader in these niches- and every major engine maker knows that and respects it- but for some reason you think your above all of them, and that you are enlightened with the knowledge that MTU is trash and doesn't do anything. Good job buddy.

Your EJ200 vs AL-31 take is comedy. Yes, the AL-31 has higher raw thrust, congratulations on discovering numbers on Wikipedia. But it also guzzles fuel like a drunk at Oktoberfest, weighs far more, and has trash time-between-overhaul compared to the EJ200. Modern fighters don’t need “brute force Soviet tractor engines,” they need efficient, maintainable cores with growth margin. That’s why Typhoons are still operationally viable while Flankers are engine-swapping like rental cars.

As for your Baykar/TEI fantasy- TEI is not developing engines out of charity for private firms. Baykar isn’t going to waltz in and get a bespoke turbofan for free. TEI answers to Ankara’s defence ministry, not Selçuk Bayraktar’s wish list. If a TF6000 or similar engine is made, it’s because the state wants it, not because Baykar asked nicely. Your “why would TEI develop for Akinci” question answers itself — they wouldn’t, unless it’s state-backed.

And the cherry on top: your USAID/conspiracy nod. This is pure fan-fiction. If you’re going to argue RR secretly slipped things under the table, show a contract or an export license. Otherwise it’s just “trust me, bro” forum cope. Defence tech isn’t smuggled like PlayStations, it moves under government-to-government frameworks and billions in contracts.

In short: your argument is nothing but PR headlines, half-digested pressers, and fanboy cope. RR didn’t lose because it “had nothing”; it lost because politics overruled tech. Kaan flying early means nothing without metallurgy. UK deterrent isn’t dead because you read about one failure. Safran isn’t the only engine house that matters. EJ200 vs AL-31 isn’t even a fair comparison outside of thrust numbers. TEI doesn’t develop toys for Baykar out of pocket. And your conspiracy filler? Garbage. You’re not doing analysis- you’re parroting talking points and dressing them up as insight.