There was no refutation of Demir's words, which means RR agreed to transfer what was required within the TAEC concern. In this case, RR's offers to Turkey and India are de facto the same in terms of technology transfer, and in Turkey's case, this deal was supplemented by the desire to purchase 40 Typhoons. TRMotor, however, won the contract, having a lobby and confidence in the fulfillment of the technical task, the progress with the TF-6000 and TF-10000 gave them reason for optimism. In 2022, they did not yet exist and praising was a logical step. Further, what will prevent TRMotor from involving Kale (but already separately from RR) in the development, if this is necessary to reduce costs and speed up the work? RR could easily refute his words and put the Turks in an awkward position, but did not do this, for this it is enough to once declare that RR will not transfer 100% of the rights, but only X%, or nothing at all. Technology demonstrators are mostly simplified compared to production models, so Kaan will use more advanced technologies and undergo longer and more complex tests with each prototype/takeoff, AMCA has not even entered the technology demonstrator stage. The geometry of the Kaan airframe is already adapted for stealth, the internal compartments are being finalized, and then the integration of Anka 3 and Kizilelma into a single network with Kaan is planned. Moreover, AMCA is also being developed according to this scheme - foreign engines will be used for takeoff and production of the first version, the first sample of loyal wingman called CATS has already been built, ahead of AMCA, the same was in the case of Kaan. The Turkish radar for Kaan is already undergoing tests, composite production is developed in Turkey, some of the weapons are already ready, the development of avionics, IRST continues, DIRCM has already conducted the first tests. Tejas Mk2 has not even reached the prototype stage, and this is the 4th generation, which already simplifies the work. Tejas Mk2 uses a foreign engine and ejection seat, which already gives the US the right to restrict exports, in this case Tejas has no advantages over Kaan. Of course not, because the Americans, Japanese, Russians and others have long been producing "hot" parts, only MTU has not yet built a single "hot" part completely, which is why Safran still has an advantage in experience and development speed. Therefore, for Safran, the loss of MTU is much less painful than for MTU the loss of Safran. Safran already produces "cold" parts and has experience in this area as well, that is, this company will be able to build a "cold" part, but the costs in terms of funds and time will increase, and the quality will most likely fall. Right now, Safran is developing the M88 upgrade now and will soon start work on the Indian contract, that is, the company will have an experience of the 5/6 generation engine. The Al-41 is superior in power to all European engines, Russia has reduced the gap with Europe in terms of engine durability, while the USSR engines had a lower life cycle. The EJ200 also has an upper theoretical limit of 6,000 hours, while the Americans use TAC, which is a more accurate indicator for comparison. The Al-51 has increased the gap between Europe and Russia in engine thrust, while the M88 and EJ200 have not been upgraded for a long time, and their replacement is only in the initial stages of development. Since 1991, the F-16 has also been actively sold at a reduced price, which doesn't reduce its export success. The quality of Russian service is certainly lower than the quality of European and American service, of course . The Indian Su-30MKIs use modifications of the Al-31 with a low life cycle, which is already outdated and requires replacement with the Al-41 or something better, a small part of the engine problems (several batches) were caused by problems with Indian subcontractors. Moreover, Russia is waging a war and the speed of component delivery is noticeably decreasing, since the Russian Air Force is also tense, increasing its numbers. But there is no alternative because Indian Kaveri project is dead(For installation in fighters), and cooperation with Safran on its refinement has been cancelled. The British arsenal looked much better during the Cold War, since its maintenance costs were higher, and new equipment was purchased more often. Now they are fixing this problem, but there is no future replacement for Trident yet, and after all, the missile has a limited lifespan. Britain has also had problems with patrolling recently, some submarines need major repairs. The "accidental" deaths of the plaintiffs, with a small interval, already looks unnatural against the backdrop of the lawsuit against Boeing and Spirit. Here is an attack on the corporation itself, not democracy as a system (nothing better has been invented yet), "Russian savages" is in quotation marks, which no longer implies the original meaning, especially after mentioning their latest achievement in the form of the Al-51, and this political cliche has been actively used since the beginning of 2022 due to military actions. Western lies? During the Cold War, all sides lied, including the "non-aligned", perhaps the inflated characteristics of the F-111 were disinformation against the KGB. Jews only cause admiration, they still buy F-15 and F-35 at the expense of American money, receive money for the development of their weapons, receive tens of billions of dollars in assistance on a priority basis, who else could do that?
I emphasize the successes of the Turks and the greater experience of French companies, why can't I do that? If the discussion were about missiles, I would have no problem mentioning India's successes compared to other countries, such as France, Pakistan or Turkey, but the discussion was about aviation
RR did not “agree” to
anything with Turkey. Rolls-Royce outright
walked away from the engine deal because Ankara wanted 100% tech transfer and intellectual property ownership, something RR was
never going to concede.
Ismail Demir’s so-called “statement” was nothing but face-saving propaganda designed to cover up the embarrassment that Turkey’s own officials admitted in hushed tones- that no Western conglomerate will hand over crown-jewel IP for pennies just because Ankara demands it. You conveniently forget that RR had
publicly stated its concerns, and then quietly disengaged. And no, corporations of that size
don’t release counter-pressers every time a politician opens his mouth- if they did, Rolls-Royce would have to spend half its working hours refuting grandstanding by every tinpot minister in every second-tier defense market. They aren’t in the business of issuing schoolyard rebuttals. Furthermore, humiliating Turkey publicly would have killed
any chance of future cooperation. That’s not how defense deals work. You don’t slam the door on an entire country to appease a news cycle. You simply walk away, which is exactly what RR did, leaving Ankara red-faced. Of course, you don't seem to care about real news, do you? Just whatever sensationalism you see on social media. Turkey's propaganda machine certainly seems to have done a good job puppeteering you.
Your insistence that Turkey’s TRMotor project is proof of strength is equally hollow. TRMotor hasn’t built a single certified military turbofan in its existence, and its “TF6000” and “TF10000” are still
experimental benches, not fielded engines. Turkey lacks the materials science, metallurgy expertise, and testing infrastructure that took Europe, the U.S., and Russia decades and tens of billions of dollars to develop. Slapping “TF” on a test rig does not magically mean you can build a reliable, combat-proven powerplant. Meanwhile, you claim Turkey is ahead of India, ignoring the fact that Kaan is flying with a pair of F110s- a 1970s design still leased from the U.S. with strings attached. That’s not sovereignty. That’s dependency in disguise.
Your gloating over Kaan’s “geometry adapted for stealth” is
laughable. Kaan’s shaping borrows heavily from F-22 and F-35 design cues but is riddled with compromises- panel gaps, rivet exposures, material inconsistencies-that
real stealth designers eliminate over decades of iteration. India’s AMCA, on the other hand, is still in the design freeze stage because India doesn’t want to cut corners and call a 4.5++ gen jet “fifth gen” just to impress domestic crowds. Kaan flying with external stores during tests proves the point: stealth is more than just a faceted fuselage; it’s about
systems integration, coatings, maintenance standards, and RCS management. Calling Kaan a finished stealth fighter because it looks “pointy” is like calling a Fiat a Ferrari because it has four wheels.
Your comparison of Tejas Mk2 to Kaan
betrays your ignorance. Tejas Mk2 is being designed from the ground up as a multirole platform with proven design lessons from Mk1A, and HAL already has established supply chains, serial production experience, and export inquiries. Kaan, on the other hand, is
years away from serial production- if it even gets there- and its survival depends on whether Ankara’s economy can survive sanctions, currency collapse, and ongoing brain drain. The claim that American components in Tejas give Washington a veto over exports is outdated nonsense. India has exported defense platforms with Western subsystems before — Dhruv helicopters with Safran engines went to Ecuador and Mauritius, and BrahMos missiles (with Russian propulsion) are headed to the Philippines. Export restrictions are a threat, but India has decades of experience managing them. Turkey, by contrast, has seen its UAV exports hit by Canadian optics bans and engine embargoes. Ankara is far more vulnerable to foreign restrictions.
Your worship of Russian engines is another weak point. Yes, the Al-41 provides thrust, but Russian turbofans are notoriously behind Western designs in lifecycle costs, MTBO (mean time between overhaul), and fuel efficiency. Russian jets operate with heavy logistical tails and constant maintenance- which is why India has been desperately trying to localize Su-30 engine servicing and push for indigenous replacements. The so-called “Al-51” project you hail is
vaporware. Meanwhile, Western, and even Chinese engine-makers have clear roadmaps to develop 6th-gen engines: RR/IHI/Avio Aero, GE, P&W, Safran/MTU/ITP, and China. Pretending Russia has “closed the gap” with Europe in turbofans is a
delusion. Ask the Russian Air Force how many Su-57s they’ve built with true fifth-gen engines. The answer?
Zero. They’re all flying with interim Saturn AL-41F1s.
And as for Safran-MTU, you seem to have ignored my old paragraph of what I wrote about MTU's
dominance in cold sections, blisks, DECMUs, and LPTs:
- EJ200 (Eurofighter Typhoon): As a member of the EUROJET consortium, MTU holds a 30% workshare. It is responsible for the development and manufacturing of the low- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the engine's digital control and monitoring unit (DECMU).
- RB199 (Panavia Tornado): This was a highly successful three-shaft turbofan for which MTU independently developed and manufactured the intermediate- and high-pressure compressors, as well as the intermediate-pressure turbine.
- New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE): In the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), MTU is partnered with Safran and ITP Aero to develop the engine for Europe's next-generation fighter. MTU's responsibility includes the compression system, consisting of the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors.
- F110 (F-15/F-16): As a risk-and-revenue-sharing partner of GE Aviation, MTU is a key supplier for this highly successful U.S. fighter engine, manufacturing parts for the turbine's low-pressure compressor and disks.
- F414 (F/A-18 Super Hornet): Another partnership with GE, where MTU produces components for the high- and low-turbine blades.
And then comes the blatant
lies: you gloss over the fact that Turkey
still hasn’t solved its engine problem for Kaan. You can scream about “indigenous composites” or “networked warfare with drones,” but without a sovereign turbofan, Kaan is a showpiece, not a warfighter. India, at least, has openly acknowledged the engine gap and is bringing in a foreign partner to co-develop a solution, rather than spinning fairy tales about bench rigs. Meanwhile, Turkey has no quick path forward except begging Rolls-Royce to come back to the table, which isn’t happening anytime soon.
Finally, your cheap shots against Jews, Russians, and “Western lies” are nothing but
pathetic dog-whistles. You dress it up with half-hearted disclaimers, but the subtext is clear: you peddle stereotypes, diminish complex industrial realities to political rants, and mask your
bigotry as “analysis.” This isn’t contrarianism; it’s hate speech wrapped in pseudo-technical babble. And let’s not forget,
you have been warned by moderators of defense.in for your bigotry, antisemitism, and spreading fake news.
I personally reported you for the extreme violations. You’ve been caught out before, and this is just more of the same. At some point, you’ll have to face the fact that you’re not debating defense technology in good faith- you’re
projecting your hatred, and it shows.
Here is my paragraph from my previous response to your bigotry and hate:
But the real
rot in your rageful rant isn’t even the technical drive- it’s the bile you try to smuggle in. Your antisemitic screed about “goyim” and the “
Zionist lobby,” your cheap swipes at Russians, and your
paranoid conspiracies about the Lavi reveal what you actually are: not an analyst, but a
bigot hiding behind defense talk.
Dragging Jews into an engine discussion with coded slurs isn’t analysis, it’s gutter prejudice. Slamming Russians as "
Savages" is horrible too. Russia's 140 million people are functioning, intelligent human beings. This
hate speech isn’t insight, it’s lazy stereotyping. This isn’t clever contrarianism, it’s just
racism in cosplay. And that is the most damning part- because it proves you are not only uninformed, but also morally bankrupt. Your words don’t just make you look ignorant, they make you look small. I strongly suggest you take a long, hard think about your choices in life- the bigotry, racism, hatred, and prejudice. Don't bother apologizing on the forum, but in real life to anyone you may have spewed your hatred onto. Get off the forum if you can't maintain decency and civility.
None of this racism is allowed here. Leave if you can't accept that.
Back to the present.
Remember not to spread your hateful ideals on defense.in, and keep the bigotry, hate speech, derogatory name-calling, antisemitism, and disgusting terms to yourself. I have to mention again:
Defense.in moderators have given you a stern warning deleted your post for breaking ToS of the site: dont repeat it. They also deleted your other post on the 2nd threat which contained antisemitic remarks that 'zionists controlled the world'.
I am uncomfortable and am sickened by the way you speak about Jews. I am also
no longer interested in pursuing this.. 'discussion' with you, if you could even call it that. You should stop spreading fake news for once, and begin looking at real data instead of government-funded propaganda. And
most importantly, stop your hate speech. Stop your bigotry. I can't comment on your personal beliefs in private, but you are not allowed to bring that toxicity onto a public forum like defense.in. I do not expect a response to this message, and I'm ready to end it here if you wish to do so too. Thanks.
