Lockheed Martin Bets on F-21 for India's $20 Billion MMRCA Deal, As F-35A Incompatibile to Indian Current Systems

[Akshat]

First, the F-21 is not enough to fight against the PLAAF. Americans spare no effort to promote the F-21 to India, most likely because Americans want to keep the production line of the F-16, which is helpful to their employment and weapons production capacity.
Second, referring to the British F-35, the United States needs to provide the source code for launching missiles, but they refused. Britain is the closest ally of the United States, without a doubt. Britain cannot freely control the F-35, let alone India. If India buys the F-35, the result is that as long as the Americans do not agree, Indians cannot launch missiles, or even take off.
Third, American weapons are too expensive. The unit price of the F-35 sold to Japan exceeds $200 million, and since India is not a treaty ally of the United States, this price may be even higher.
Fourthly, the current F-35 production capacity of the United States is only about 130 aircraft, half of which need to be given to NATO allies. Even if India buys the F-35, the United States does not have enough production capacity, so India's acquisition of the F-35 will be very late, possibly after 2035.
Fifth, India is currently unable to develop the fifth generation fighter by itself. The American technology is advanced, but unreliable and very expensive. A relatively stable source of technology is likely to be Russia.

Bhai such great points throughout the comment, but then you lit it all on fire with that last word. Russia simply doesn’t have the tech and don’t want to share it either. We have already seen it all.

 

[Akshat]

Here goes dreams of all f35 supporters, now go and procure f35, as for reality Rafael and su 57 are the only options

And IAF doesn’t want Su57 under any circumstances.

 

[avinash]

F16 Blk72 is 10 times more potent and still deadlier than Tejas MK1A jets....

Show any detailed study or research or self analysis? How its 10 times potent and "still" deadlier than tejas mk1A? I would argue that tejas mk1A with Astra is 10 times more potent and deadlier than f16blk72.

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Show any detailed study or research or self analysis? How its 10 times potent and "still" deadlier than tejas mk1A? I would argue that tejas mk1A with Astra is 10 times more potent and deadlier than f16blk72.

MK1A DOES NOT have any MAWS or integrated with AESA radars EW SPJ suite, or even an IRST - the very basic equipments to win BVR air battles! Astra1 is having only 110 kms range and AIM174B of USAF is now having 400+ kms kill ranges. F16 now comes with RCS reducing paints and an improved engine also! Still no any GE engines or electronic engine starter component part for MK1A's are available! MK1A Using 1990's tech's of Elta EL/M 2052 radars which are already in JF17 jets by now... F21 will come with F35A GaN AESA radars, is what they are saying at LM. Still now after 40+ years even Tejas cannot fire its guns while in flight due to non-compliance issues!

 

[Sandeep]

First, the F-21 is not enough to fight against the PLAAF. Americans spare no effort to promote the F-21 to India, most likely because Americans want to keep the production line of the F-16, which is helpful to their employment and weapons production capacity.
Second, referring to the British F-35, the United States needs to provide the source code for launching missiles, but they refused. Britain is the closest ally of the United States, without a doubt. Britain cannot freely control the F-35, let alone India. If India buys the F-35, the result is that as long as the Americans do not agree, Indians cannot launch missiles, or even take off.
Third, American weapons are too expensive. The unit price of the F-35 sold to Japan exceeds $200 million, and since India is not a treaty ally of the United States, this price may be even higher.
Fourthly, the current F-35 production capacity of the United States is only about 130 aircraft, half of which need to be given to NATO allies. Even if India buys the F-35, the United States does not have enough production capacity, so India's acquisition of the F-35 will be very late, possibly after 2035.
Fifth, India is currently unable to develop the fifth generation fighter by itself. The American technology is advanced, but unreliable and very expensive. A relatively stable source of technology is likely to be Russia.

What rubbish! India is currently developing its own 5th generation jet by itself. It has now moved to the manufacturing stage of the prototypes so the technology and capabilities are there. Also you love the Chinese but don’t realise that their jets aren’t proper stealth jets at all. India could clearly see them by using their 20yr old infrared on the Sukhoi jets. Also their technology isn’t as good as they say and can’t do everything that they do say. Their litany of failures and problems range from the junk fighter, naval ships and submarine with massive engine failures etc.

 

[Anant]

which are other 5 nations ...................??? & from whom u want 5.5 Gen Certificate ..................???? second does F-21 Exist ..............??? Not Even prototype of F-21 have been Built by LM For Evaluation in MRFA

The five other nations are the USA, Russia, China (arguable, but still), South Korea, and Turkey. If those, the latter two only have prototypes so far, and the KF-21 as of today is more of a "5-"th generation aircraft. However, once they have the next block of the KF-21 flying later this decade, they'll join that club. Turkey is in a similar position. As for China, their aircraft may not be as stealthy as the others, but it still does meet practically all criteria for a fifth generation aircraft.

Now, as for that 5.5th generation thing. That will become a reality when we actually have 6th generation aircraft flying or atleast firmly conceptualised, since you can only then have a bridge like the 5.5th generation. Do remember that this 4.5th generation term did not come up until after the first fifth generation aircraft flew.

Finally, I'll believe AMCA is a 5.5th generation fighter when someone actually credible to make that statement does, and has some objective proof to go along. Otherwise, anyone can call it anything.

Finally, I am not trying to be a F-21 / F-16V salesman. You are correct in that the F-21 doesn't technically exist, but to give credit where it is due, the US is far closer to having a hypothetical F-21 flying than we have AMCA.

 

[Anant]

Ha Ha Ha oh Then why Contender of MRFA like Euro-Fighter ,Su-35 are Bidding ,again after going production Line idle for Su-30 too Bharat is ordering additional Su-30 MKI Nice Logic from U

You do realise that both the Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-35 are still in production, right? Both those types also have orders that will keep the lines going for a fair while still.

Coming to the Su-30MKI, we never had a true production line for the type. What we had was more of an assembly and partial production line, which is generally far cheaper to start back up.

Finally, the reason I specifically mentioned the F-18 is because the production line has already been winding down for a few years now, and some of the former F-18 lines are now manufacturing F-15EXs. Unless MRFA gets finalised in the next few months, and unless the F-18 wins that by some miracle (not that it should, there are better alternatives), the production line will not be able to be revived without significant investments. Since MRFA isn't getting finalised in that time period, for all intents and purposes, the F-18 is out.

 

[sanket]

The five other nations are the USA, Russia, China (arguable, but still), South Korea, and Turkey. If those, the latter two only have prototypes so far, and the KF-21 as of today is more of a "5-"th generation aircraft. However, once they have the next block of the KF-21 flying later this decade, they'll join that club. Turkey is in a similar position. As for China, their aircraft may not be as stealthy as the others, but it still does meet practically all criteria for a fifth generation aircraft.

KF-21 is not 5th Gen , KAAN not meet yet 5th Gen criteria when Inducted with all 5th features will b called it IAF havent yet denied calling AMCA has a 5.5th Jet second one who are developing they know better what to call AMCA thats why they say it 5.5 Gen

 

[sanket]

You do realise that both the Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-35 are still in production, right? Both those types also have orders that will keep the lines going for a fair while still.

Coming to the Su-30MKI, we never had a true production line for the type. What we had was more of an assembly and partial production line, which is generally far cheaper to start back up.

Finally, the reason I specifically mentioned the F-18 is because the production line has already been winding down for a few years now, and some of the former F-18 lines are now manufacturing F-15EXs. Unless MRFA gets finalised in the next few months, and unless the F-18 wins that by some miracle (not that it should, there are better alternatives), the production line will not be able to be revived without significant investments. Since MRFA isn't getting finalised in that time period, for all intents and purposes, the F-18 is out.

what are u reply read carefully i said Eurofighter & Su-=35 prodution line are idle they dont have any orders even Su-30 production in Russia is not happening thats what i am saying even then are ready to deliver all lies from u all your commments are childish, Thats difference Eurofighter , Su-35 & Su-30 are ready todeliver as an when needed there are short coming in F-18 thats why it must have been withdrawn from MRFA or even it is pitched surely it will bite the Dust anyway .

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Yes.... Buy cheapest western SEF jet F16 Blk72 now and get F35A's after 10 years deal!! ONLY 2 options left for IAF in MRFA tender i.e., Rafale F4.2 TEF and lowest costs SEF F16 jets now...

 

[Deepak Hegde]

Just confirms that they want to dump obsolete technology on India which does not meet current Indian needs, just to get residual vale money from F-16's and that too with many end user restrictions. Ask them to take a talk !!

 

[Konodioda]

What rubbish! India is currently developing its own 5th generation jet by itself. It has now moved to the manufacturing stage of the prototypes so the technology and capabilities are there. Also you love the Chinese but don’t realise that their jets aren’t proper stealth jets at all. India could clearly see them by using their 20yr old infrared on the Sukhoi jets. Also their technology isn’t as good as they say and can’t do everything that they do say. Their litany of failures and problems range from the junk fighter, naval ships and submarine with massive engine failures etc.

According to the development speed of AMCA, when AMCA first entered service, PLAAF's sixth generation aircraft had already been in service.
Moreover, PLAN's submarines will not sink themselves, their ships will not capsize in the shipping operations, and there are not as many fires and explosions

 

[Konodioda]

Bhai such great points throughout the comment, but then you lit it all on fire with that last word. Russia simply doesn’t have the tech and don’t want to share it either. We have already seen it all.

At present, only the United States, Russia and China, South Korea and Türkiye can develop the fifth generation aircraft. The fifth generation aircraft in Europe has just started, and the fifth generation aircraft in Europe, South Korea and Türkiye also rely heavily on the United States in technology. It is simply impossible for India to independently develop AMCA. India must rely on foreign technology and not attempt to justify this reality. And the possible technological channel for India cannot be China, right?
How many technology can Americans transfer to India? Originally, Indian gov hoped to transfer all the technical materials of F414 engine by virtue of its good relationship with the United States, but only 80% of them were transferred, United States reserved a lot of core technologies for India. Although the Russian cheated the Indian, at least he was willing to share some information with India.
No matter how analyzed, Russia is the most likely country to transfer fifth generation aircraft technology. If even Russia does not transfer fifth generation aircraft technology to India, India cannot produce fifth generation aircraft. This is reality.

 

[Anant]

what are u reply read carefully i said Eurofighter & Su-=35 prodution line are idle they dont have any orders even Su-30 production in Russia is not happening thats what i am saying even then are ready to deliver all lies from u all your commments are childish, Thats difference Eurofighter , Su-35 & Su-30 are ready todeliver as an when needed there are short coming in F-18 thats why it must have been withdrawn from MRFA or even it is pitched surely it will bite the Dust anyway .

Wrong again. Su-35s are being built in large numbers for Russia.

There are Typhoons under order from Germany, Kuwait, Qatar, and Spain. There is another large order from Italy announced but not signed yet.

Russia is still building small numbers of Su-30SMs to augment the Su-35, though new orders aren't being placed for those.

Finally, the F-18 production line is coming to an end because there are no more orders. If a nation decides to order them today, they will receive those without any issue. Of course no one will keep a production line going without orders, but that is something you have repeatedly overlooked or refused to accept as common sense.

Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

 

[Konodioda]

The five other nations are the USA, Russia, China (arguable, but still), South Korea, and Turkey. If those, the latter two only have prototypes so far, and the KF-21 as of today is more of a "5-"th generation aircraft. However, once they have the next block of the KF-21 flying later this decade, they'll join that club. Turkey is in a similar position. As for China, their aircraft may not be as stealthy as the others, but it still does meet practically all criteria for a fifth generation aircraft.

Now, as for that 5.5th generation thing. That will become a reality when we actually have 6th generation aircraft flying or atleast firmly conceptualised, since you can only then have a bridge like the 5.5th generation. Do remember that this 4.5th generation term did not come up until after the first fifth generation aircraft flew.

Finally, I'll believe AMCA is a 5.5th generation fighter when someone actually credible to make that statement does, and has some objective proof to go along. Otherwise, anyone can call it anything.

Finally, I am not trying to be a F-21 / F-16V salesman. You are correct in that the F-21 doesn't technically exist, but to give credit where it is due, the US is far closer to having a hypothetical F-21 flying than we have AMCA.

The aircraft of South Korea and Türkiye are not the fifth generation aircraft at all, and even their own research and development personnel do not admit it.

However, it is possible for these two countries to rely on some foreign technologies to develop 4.5 generation machines. This is because South Korea has undertaken many high-tech manufacturing industries in the United States. They can manufacture advanced cars, ships, semiconductors, etc., and Türkiye has undertaken many industries in Europe. Both countries have accumulated a lot of technology and talent in the past few decades. When their government wants to develop a new generation of fighter jets, they can use these technologies and talents in research and development.

And India's DRDO is facing too much talent loss. They can only earn a salary of 70000 rupees in Mumbai, but they have to face a house worth 100 million rupees, while their classmates can find jobs with a monthly salary of 7000 rupees in multinational companies or the United States. Those who stay in DRDO are either powerless or foolish.

 

[sanket]

Wrong again. Su-35s are being built in large numbers for Russia.

There are Typhoons under order from Germany, Kuwait, Qatar, and Spain. There is another large order from Italy announced but not signed yet.

Russia is still building small numbers of Su-30SMs to augment the Su-35, though new orders aren't being placed for those.

Finally, the F-18 production line is coming to an end because there are no more orders. If a nation decides to order them today, they will receive those without any issue. Of course no one will keep a production line going without orders, but that is something you have repeatedly overlooked or refused to accept as common sense.

Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

Orders not offered on whether production Line is idle or full , A Fighter jet which meets the parameters will win , Last Time in MMRCA F-18 not even meet paratmeters set By IAF Only Rafale & Eurofighter meet & Rafale was L1 bidder Boeing may b convinced F-18 fall short what Parameters are Thats why they are pitching F-15 Ex Rather than F-18 MMRCA was started way back 2007 From that period F-18,F-16 Eurofighter Rafale MIG-35 Gripen have been contested Even till yoday how many MIG-35 have been produced by your childish theory MIG-35 should not part of MRFA

 

[Sandeep]

India isn’t going to buy any foreign jets under the MRFA as it’s just too expensive, we won’t receive any critical ToT or manufacture enough indigenously with Indian content.

India needs to focus on manufacturing the Tejas MK1A and quickly start manufacturing the prototypes for the Tejas MK2 and AMCA. We need to focus more on developing our indigenous technology and products which can be done at a much cheaper rate.

 

[Akshat]

At present, only the United States, Russia and China, South Korea and Türkiye can develop the fifth generation aircraft. The fifth generation aircraft in Europe has just started, and the fifth generation aircraft in Europe, South Korea and Türkiye also rely heavily on the United States in technology. It is simply impossible for India to independently develop AMCA. India must rely on foreign technology and not attempt to justify this reality. And the possible technological channel for India cannot be China, right?
How many technology can Americans transfer to India? Originally, Indian gov hoped to transfer all the technical materials of F414 engine by virtue of its good relationship with the United States, but only 80% of them were transferred, United States reserved a lot of core technologies for India. Although the Russian cheated the Indian, at least he was willing to share some information with India.
No matter how analyzed, Russia is the most likely country to transfer fifth generation aircraft technology. If even Russia does not transfer fifth generation aircraft technology to India, India cannot produce fifth generation aircraft. This is reality.

My 2 problems with this chain of thought.

1. Russia doesn’t want to transfer us any fifth gen tech. They don’t want to transfer us any major tech at all, in fact. Remember FGFA? Mid way after investing 100s of millions, Russia increased the price, decreased their own orders and investments, and reduced HAL’s work share. So they are not at all ready to give us anything. Even for something like KA226, they have refused to transfer us even 35% of the tech. So forget fifth gen tech.

2. Assuming Russia does wanna transfer such tech, they should have it in the first place. IAF ditched the program after investing 100s of millions. Russian airforce itself cut down 70% of its own orders and went with more Su35 indeed. China was offered Su57 but they refused it, unofficially saying that their own planes are far ahead. No one so far has shown any interest in Su75 either. So it’s clear that anyone who has seen Russian fifth gen tech finds it inferior to even western fourth gen tech.

 

[PKPRS]

I mean the Rafale first flew in 1986, the Su-30 in 1989, the F16 may have been from the previous decade but the platform age is similar for all of them and kind of irrelevant in the face of what the modern upgrades are. If you want to make other criticisms of the F16, have at it, but fourth gen jets are still extremely numerous and will be in service for decades to come and this is among the most modernized upgraded ones in the F21 variant, akin to the Rafale F4 on upgrades, and then it's a matter of considering cost vs capabilities etc.

So Rafale is also vintage, pretty much every fighter jet in the competition is vintage except Gripen-E and after that SU-35.

 

[PKPRS]

Technology is different F-21 have reach the upgrade Limit, while Rafale can b upgraded further for Next 40 to 50 years , Drone complement Rafale may b offered second weapon package too will b offered upgraded Like MICA-NG , Meteor-NG& scalp-NG May b some features may b borrowed from F5 version Lastly Design is Latest wile F-21 has old Design Combat Radius & payload is another Factor & Most important thing is will LM shift the production Line if it win MRFA Accidently ...............??? On third party weapn Rafale can b Integrated with Brahmos-NG in Future Will US allow Indo-Russian weapon on its Fighter Jet ...............??? To handle Rafale will need 2 to 3 F-16

But F21 will cost atleast 1/3rd the price of Rafale F4.2 with near payload capability and almost same total thrust of twin engine Rafale.