ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems' Stealth Submarine Design Clears Key Hurdle for Indian Navy's P-75I Program

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ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) has successfully completed a critical design review (CDR) for its innovative submarine concept, featuring advanced "Stealth Shaping" technology, initially presented for the Indian Navy's prestigious P-75I program.

The design, drawing inspiration from the cutting-edge Type-212CD submarines under development for Germany and Norway, highlights its maturity and potential to fulfill the Indian Navy's demanding requirements.

The CDR involved a rigorous examination of over 100,000 pages of documentation, ensuring the design's adherence to approximately 6,000 contractual obligations, as confirmed by the German Ministry of Defence.

The Type 212CD, while not yet officially designated by TKMS for its Indian variant, represents a substantial evolution from its predecessor, the Type 212A, incorporating its core principles.

A cornerstone of the Type-212CD design lies in its superior stealth capabilities compared to conventional submarines with rounded hulls. The incorporation of angled hulls significantly minimizes the reflection of sound waves, resulting in a remarkably low acoustic signature. This tactical advantage enables the submarine to operate discreetly in contested waters, enhancing its operational effectiveness.

TKMS aims to equip the Indian Navy with a formidable submarine capable of executing missions within a challenging maritime landscape. The successful completion of the CDR marks a pivotal step in the development of this advanced submarine concept, bringing it closer to fruition.

The Indian Navy's P-75I program seeks to acquire six advanced diesel-electric submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology. The program aims to bolster the Navy's underwater capabilities and maintain a strategic edge in the region.
 
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Deepak Hegde said:
MRFA is for real. At this stage TEDBF and AMCA are fantasies. Even Tejas is gasping for deliveries, thanks to HAL !! If anyone will kill the indigenous programs, it will be HAL.
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HAL is not delaying the Order. HAL is just integrator of most of the parts made by private companies. Engines are delayed by 8 months by GE USA.
 
Deepak Hegde said:
MRFA is for real. At this stage TEDBF and AMCA are fantasies. Even Tejas is gasping for deliveries, thanks to HAL !! If anyone will kill the indigenous programs, it will be HAL.
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AMCA fund is released , So it is as serious as Tejas Mk2, But ADA should hurry up and honor the promised deadlines.
 
Manoj Kumar said:
You do need MRFA? It wil kill Tejas, TEDBF & AMCA
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MRFA wouldn't be required if we had a flying Tejas Mk2 today but it's supposed to come only in next decade and we are awful in both quantity and quality at the moment.
 
Bharat007 said:
Type 212 CD weighs around 2,500 to 2,800 tons. Whereas, acc. to the tender, participating Submarine is expected to be around 3,000 to 4,000 tons when submerged. Type 212CD is still relatively short.

I think India should order it with increased indigenous content.
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There is no weight restriction, what india should avoid is single vendor situation or negotiation with single vendor.
 
In MRFA, if we select Rafale then it will cost us 30 bln $ for 114 Jets. Rafale comes in 110 ml$ per aircraft w/o weapon package and maintenance infra package. If we order now then it will take 3 years means 2027-28 to delivered first aircraft from France. 1-2 years will go in establishing production factory. First Made in India Rafale will get delivered only after 2029-30. That will also 30-40% indigenous. Indigenous content will increase over the period.
Now I have 2 question to ask people who is in favor of MRFA. 1. Whether India can afford 30 bln $ cost for 114 aircraft when at the same time Tejas MK2 will be available in much cheaper rate. In 30 Bln$ India can purchase atleast 250 Tejas MK2. Some amount can be used in R&D of AMCA.
2. Why don't IAF go for ORCA? IAF version of TEDBF ? for stopgap measure India can purchase more Tejas MK1A and must go for 5th gen fighter instead of 4.5 gen fighters.

India needs more submarines, Minesweeper, Aircraft carrier, attack choppers, Tanks, FRCV. List are big. Spending 30 Bln$ for just 114 Rafale has no common sense. Budget should be use wisely.
 
Anant said:
MRFA is a quantitative necessity. Firstly, it won't kill any indigenous programs. Secondly, even if one assumes HAL can somehow get it's act together and start delivering aircraft in larger numbers, it is almost certainly the target of 42 squadrons won't be achieved for another 25-ish years, and depending on when the Su-30MKI phase-out begins, that target may not be reached for as far as the early 2060s. The six squadrons under MRFA will help maintain a capability and reach the 42 squadron target by the late 2030s.
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I agree we need MRFA but suspect that given MODs attitude, it may die a slow death. Hope not, but unless we ink MRFA by 2025-2026, we won’t see any planes built in India before 2035, that makes us extremely vulnerable given delays in Tejas Mk2, AMCA Mk-1, and even HALs inability to deliver all Tejas Mk1As by 2030 (180odd ones 97+83)…Of course GE 404s are an issue which is unlikely to be solved even by 2026 - bad situation with no easy answers…

Even if GOI does a G2G with France for Rafales and decides 36 planes in fly away condition, can dasault deliver them before 2030, given their order book and also our Rafale M orders - highly unlikely despite claims by French propagandists and lovers…

Further the increasing threat of stealth jets by China and Pakistan…

Quite the quandary…Hope MOD, IAF have a plan?
 
Anant said:
Not quite. The German government has already made plans to purchase a stake in TKMS and keep them going. For the Germans, TKMS is a strategic asset that cannot be lost.
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Agree, too much riding for the Germans for such a strategic asset…

Wonder if they would be open for MDL buying say a 20-30% stake in TKMS? Of course it stays in German control!
 
Anant said:
It won't be the Type 212CD by itself. In any case, the Type 212CD is optimised for Baltic operations. My guess is that the design on offer is a modified Type 214 design with some elements from the Type 212A and Type 212CD designs.
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Non magnetic steel is important along with the stealth shaping and a larger almost 3000 ton boat, for AIP and Batteries! I suppose thinking of VLS or missile capability may be a bridge too far, despite TKMS building the Dakar boats for the Israelis!
 
Bharat007 said:
3 scorpene AIP submarines.
2 S5 SSBN Arihant class on built. (Arighat and Arihant already in service).
6 Project 75 Alpha SSN (project approved and first submarine is expected in 2032).
6 Project 75i.
12 Project 76 conventional submarine (design expected to be completed by the end of 2024).

Navy is on the right track.
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Yes, but these plans need execution on time and budget - then we can celebrate.
 
Anant said:
Not quite. The German government has already made plans to purchase a stake in TKMS and keep them going. For the Germans, TKMS is a strategic asset that cannot be lost.
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we have to wait and watch, there is no official news of German GOVT buying a stake in TKMS yet.
 
Bharat007 said:
3 scorpene AIP submarines.
2 S5 SSBN Arihant class on built. (Arighat and Arihant already in service).
6 Project 75 Alpha SSN (project approved and first submarine is expected in 2032).
6 Project 75i.
12 Project 76 conventional submarine (design expected to be completed by the end of 2024).

Navy is on the right track.
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Order of 3 scorpene submarine are still not given!!
S5 class SSBN still on paper and need approval from GoI while S4 is on sea trials and S4* will soon on trials face
About SSN class alpha project approval of only 2 submarine is given only for now!!
6 Project 75I still need order from tha Navy
Project 76 is still on the paper and before 2028 expecting too much from this program will be a disappointment!!

As according to navy 2026 will be the year when AIP in scorpene submarine will be tested so it's going to be a long journey for the navy but yeah they are on the right track to balance themselves just their frigate and destroyer lacks firepower in the near future I hope these shortcomings will be improved!!
 
Anurag said:
Order of 3 scorpene submarine are still not given!!
S5 class SSBN still on paper and need approval from GoI while S4 is on sea trials and S4* will soon on trials face
About SSN class alpha project approval of only 2 submarine is given only for now!!
6 Project 75I still need order from tha Navy
Project 76 is still on the paper and before 2028 expecting too much from this program will be a disappointment!!

As according to navy 2026 will be the year when AIP in scorpene submarine will be tested so it's going to be a long journey for the navy but yeah they are on the right track to balance themselves just their frigate and destroyer lacks firepower in the near future I hope these shortcomings will be improved!!
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Won't be disappointment. Navy aims to induct 25 submarines by next 15 years. I can't explain bit by bit. It's tiresome.
 
Bharat007 said:
Won't be disappointment. Navy aims to induct 25 submarines by next 15 years. I can't explain bit by bit. It's tiresome.
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No, Arihant class refers to S2, S3 is Arighat and another one which will enter service in 2025 it is S4 class and currently under construction is S4* class
 
Swapy said:
HAL is not delaying the Order. HAL is just integrator of most of the parts made by private companies. Engines are delayed by 8 months by GE USA.
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These are just flimsy excuses ! When did HAL receive the order for Tejas jets ? Who committed timelines for delivery? HAL or GE ? How and why HAL committed timelines for delivery of the jets without control of supply of of critical parts like engines? Was HAL sleeping all along. As early as Jan 20204, HAL kept fooling everyone that delivery of Tejas MK1A would happen at end of Feb 24. Engine supply delay on part of GE only emerged after April this year. When bragging that Tejas ii developed by them, HAL is in the forefront, when delays happen they just shrug saying they are aggregators ?? Most shameless company !! Remember you are dealing with National security here, not sale of onions and potatoes !!
 
Anant said:
VLS cells are highly unlikely. I have a feeling that will have to wait for Project 76 only.
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VLS cells are necessary to fire Brahmos SLCM. It most definitely would be a highly souped up Invincible-class/Darkar class hybrid. Thats also partially the reason Indian Navy is scouting for a SSK submarine with a displacement of over 3000 tonnes.
 
ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR said:
VLS cells are necessary to fire Brahmos SLCM. It most definitely would be a highly souped up Invincible-class/Darkar class hybrid. Thats also partially the reason Indian Navy is scouting for a SSK submarine with a displacement of over 3000 tonnes.
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Highly unlikely, Sir. The hull forms of the Type 218SG and the Dakar-class are somewhat different. Slotting in an entire VLS module would mean massive changes to the hull, and it would essentially be a new design at that point rather than a Type 214 derivative.

See, I would be very happy if TKMS' offering does have a VLS module, but I do not see any way that would happen. It simply isn't feasible given that it has been reported that the design being offered is not the Dakar-class design or variant thereof.
 
desigandu said:
What about missile firing capability either via torpedo tubes or the top part like the dakar class?
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Sir, even the Dakar-class may essentially have the VLS module integrated into the sail, somewhat similar to the submarine INS Drakon. Even that would require massive changes to the hullform and hydrodynamic calculations.

SLCMs from torpedo tubes are another thing entirely, and I would be surprised if we do not have that feature going.
 
linus52 said:
Germany can hold us hostages because Germany has previously held us hostages with excuses. Why can't we make in India? We just built & released Nuclear submarine?
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India don't have the technology yet to build such a submarine. Naval nuclear reactor the Germans built more than 60 (!) years ago... I wish you success in this work.
 
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