Why MoD Rejected Uttam AESA Radar for Rafale M Jets Despite Having Integration Plans for MiG-29K and TEDBF

The Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) has declined a proposal by the Indian Navy to equip its Rafale M fighter jets with the domestically developed Uttam Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Fire Control Radar (FCR).

This decision has ignited a debate within the defense community regarding the balance between cost, technological advancement, and strategic autonomy in India's military modernization efforts.

The Navy had advocated for the Uttam radar to ensure commonality with its existing MiG-29K fighters and the upcoming Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) program, both of which are planned to utilize the indigenous radar system. Proponents argued that this commonality would streamline maintenance, training, and weapons integration across the naval air fleet.

However, the MoD cited several reasons for rejecting the proposal. Firstly, integrating the Uttam radar into the Rafale M platform would incur significant costs. Secondly, the MoD expressed concerns about the radar's reliance on gallium arsenide (GaAs) technology for its transmit/receive (T/R) modules.

While the Uttam radar boasts a higher number of T/R modules (968) compared to the Rafale M's existing RBE2 radar (838), the latter utilizes GaAs technology.

The MoD favors the more advanced gallium nitride (GaN) technology, which offers superior range and performance. Although DRDO has reportedly developed GaN T/R modules for future applications like the AMCA, these were not considered for the Rafale M upgrade.

This decision has drawn criticism from those who believe it undermines India's push for self-reliance in defence technology. They argue that integrating the Uttam radar would not only reduce dependence on foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) like Dassault Aviation and Thales but also provide valuable experience in integrating advanced radar systems onto complex fighter platforms.

Furthermore, proponents highlight that utilizing the Uttam radar would grant the Navy greater control over weapons integration and future upgrades, potentially reducing long-term costs and enhancing operational flexibility.

The MoD's decision reflects the complex considerations involved in modernizing a nation's armed forces. While cost and technological advancement are crucial factors, the decision also touches upon broader issues of strategic autonomy and the role of domestic research and development in achieving national security objectives.

 

[Kunung]

My question is: they recently announced that Rafale M price is significantly lower before the visit of A. Doval to France. What is the price tag per aircraft then?

 

[Anant]

Rafale prototype originally flew with GE engine before M88 was made, so it should be a easy fit.

It would be doable, but you'd require an entire flight testing regime again, which means atleast half a decade of waiting time.

 

[Anant]

Instead of 26 Rafale India should have gone for 72 NLCA and later replaced by TEDBF from 2035 onwards.

You do realise that the Navy had a set of very valid reasons as to why the NLCA was rejected, right? Oh, and at the pace HAL is building Tejas Mk 1/1As, if you gave them another 72 aircraft, they'd probably deliver them around 2035. Finally, if the Navy had gone for the NLCA program, TEDBF would not have been sanctioned.

 

[Anant]

Navy should go with similar configuration and upgrades as IAF for now. Once TEDBF is ready the Navy can transfer/sell the Rafales to IAF and standardize on the TEDBF. The Mig-29k also can be transfered to IAF depending on useful life remaining.

Transferring jets isn't as easy as it sounds. There are a lot of structural modifications that will be an active hindrance to land-based operations.

That said, I do agree that the Navy can potentially transfer the Rafale Ms to the IAF once the TEDBF is available in sufficiently large numbers. Heck, get the IAF to pay for those, and that money will cover an equivalent number of TEDBFs and a few OPVs.

 

[PKPRS]

It would be doable, but you'd require an entire flight testing regime again, which means atleast half a decade of waiting time.

we will wait more than a half a decade to receive the first Rafale-M anyway.

 

[Hey]

Not Navy its MoD who rejected, Second French know selling Fighter jet is One Time Profit & selling weapons is assured profit for Next 40 years thats why they are charging more , Bharat should have press For it ,Gate way would have open for Not only Indigenous weapons but Third party weapons should b Integrated on it .

Selling Fighter jet isn't one time profit , THE OEM does Upgrades in every 10 years & if you want to do upgrades on your own then you have to get the permission from the OEM.

+ Money to get source codes...

 

[sanket]

We already have 36+26= 62 jets once we receive the naval jets so there will be a lot of commonality in parts, technology, spares, maintenance and services. So this makes it more affordable over a long period of time.

Bro we already have 36+26=62 , we dont have 62 we have only 36 second after signing the deal it will take almost 4 to 5 years to deliver all 26 Rafale M by the Time they test & certify

 

[sanket]

Some one here said Rafale M is F4.2 and it comes with GaN AESA Radar 😂, we are paying $260Mln for a base F3R, , we need to pay more for Navy specific enhancements .

Rafale 5 version which will b delivered by 2030 (Expected) will have GaN based AESA Radar , Not even One which Dassault pitching for MRFA that too will come with GaA AESA Radar .

 

[sanket]

Selling Fighter jet isn't one time profit , THE OEM does Upgrades in every 10 years & if you want to do upgrades on your own then you have to get the permission from the OEM.

+ Money to get source codes...

How many Times Mirage-2000 Fleet was upgraded ...........??? according to your Logic Mirage have been upgraded 3 Times Not even PESA Radar have been Integrated

 

[Akshat]

But GOI only has $18-$20Bln budget to buy all 114 jets with a generous 100% TOT and also wanted the OEM to work with an Indian entity and create a complete eco System.

GOI came and told you all that? 😂😂😂

 

[M S Chatterji]

should have gone for Uttam AESA Radar , same mistake done like Mirage-2000 opportunity is there with Indigenous option, Apart From Astra Family IN can Integrate Brahmos-NG , Rudram Family in Future oh & India already paid ISE charges why France cant add one more to it why Dassault want heavy price for Just One Upgrade Just to Milk more money ..........??? In Mid-Life upgrade Bharat Must go for Indigenous GaN AESA Radar .

Indian Army/Navy/Airforce hate locally developed components. One reason is the refusal of the OEM to work with Indian hardware. Advantage is that Indian missiles, torpedo and bombs could be easily integrated. So why did MOD fall for the imported one is most likely warranty on the planes.

 

[Akshat]

My question is: they recently announced that Rafale M price is significantly lower before the visit of A. Doval to France. What is the price tag per aircraft then?

No one can answer it right now. Wait till the final deal is signed. Any numbers till then are just speculative. What can be said is that this price is lowest among all the options we had.

 

[PKPRS]

GOI came and told you all that? 😂😂😂

This has been the requirement of MRFA after PM is back from visiting Putin.

 

[Akshat]

This has been the requirement of MRFA after PM is back from visiting Putin.

So far the AoN for MRFA hasn’t been released. The requirements will come in the RFP, after the AoN. PM in fact included clauses where the plane has to be fully operational and price can’t be increased after the deal after he met Putin, since he came to know that Putin plans to increase the price to 1 billion usd per plane for Mig35 after winning the deal, along with development costs for making it fully ready.

 

[Hey]

How many Times Mirage-2000 Fleet was upgraded ...........??? according to your Logic Mirage have been upgraded 3 Times Not even PESA Radar have been Integrated

Software upgrades to integrate different weapons etc , EW suit , Electronics & Radar

One mid-time upgrade of Jet cost the same as a brand new jet

 

[sanket]

Indian Army/Navy/Airforce hate locally developed components. One reason is the refusal of the OEM to work with Indian hardware. Advantage is that Indian missiles, torpedo and bombs could be easily integrated. So why did MOD fall for the imported one is most likely warranty on the planes.

WhAP is Great Example , Got Export order , Dreaming about Stryker

 

[The Presence]

And when would that be? My guess is late 2000s? The Thales statement came around 2014.

And did Thales say that this is a ~840 TRM radar and is the one being used in Rafales? I am sure they didn’t.

You can count the TRMs on your own, or rely on others who have already done it before.

Which statement? Where's the official link to this statement ?

TRM Count from Official Image > "Will have in future" Statements

 

[Shiva]

about 15 years before, the cost in Indian Indigenou products used to be below 10% as that of US but now the cost is less than just 50%.
This increased cost to 5 folds, is the crucial reason behind all these hurdles.
Our R&D people learned how to expoit public tax money by increase their cost projections.
Probably this is the reason behind the rejection.
DRDO must come up with new proposals to set back cost calcutaions in a same way, how used to be 15 years before. If it is done so, then you will never find rejection of these kind of changes because of cost factors.

 

[Zircon]

Spares... this is where the foreign def suppliers make huge profits. 2000% or more. The Indian babus couldn't care less. Everything is " nice to have ".. not need to have. They can't be bothered about precious fx costs outflow. They buy this and that, 101 models of weapons and then spares provisioning for tens of thousands of parts is a "deal" with their buddy overseas middlemen agents.
It is a racket that never seem to stop bleeding the country.

 

[PKPRS]

So far the AoN for MRFA hasn’t been released. The requirements will come in the RFP, after the AoN. PM in fact included clauses where the plane has to be fully operational and price can’t be increased after the deal after he met Putin, since he came to know that Putin plans to increase the price to 1 billion usd per plane for Mig35 after winning the deal, along with development costs for making it fully ready.

Following are the clauses added after PM's visit to Russia
MOD made a policy switch to buy as many as 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA)

only from a vendor who is ready to set up a manufactuting unit in India for the entire aircraft.

It also wants transfer of technology and full production in India in a joint venture with a local partner.

Will Dassault do anything above, only when somebody brings a production line to India it is possible.

Policy switch to make full fighter jets in India

NEW DELHI: Not content with piecemeal Make in India initiatives in its defence procurement, the Union government has made a policy switch to buy as many as 114

www.newindianexpress.com

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Rafale prototype originally flew with GE engine before M88 was made, so it should be a easy fit.

NOT AT ALL POSSIBLE to convert existing jet to another OEM of engines in reality!!!

 

[PKPRS]

NOT AT ALL POSSIBLE to convert existing jet to another OEM of engines in reality!!!

Rafale tech demonstrator was roled out in 1986, M88 wasn’t available till 1990, until then Rafale flew with twin GE F404 engines, even GE F414 engine has the exact same dimensions as F404, so F414 engine is a direct fit in Rafale, but the air intake requirement is bit different.

 

[desigandu]

Key question is when will be the French deliver the Rafale Ms…I forecast late 2028 or mid 2029, if not 2030, given their production backlogs…

Bharat has put itself in this situation as we don’t plan well and we have HAL, DRDO and even IAF, who have unrealistic needs and also want least price…Unless the procurement process and above all cultural mindset is not addressed, we will keeep getting screwed…I don’t blame the French, as they know Bharat has no good options….

Also i speculate cost of Rafale Ms, north of $250M per jet and best case around $225M - but we shall see once contact is signed…

 

[Akshat]

You can count the TRMs on your own, or rely on others who have already done it before.

Which statement? Where's the official link to this statement ?

TRM Count from Official Image > "Will have in future" Statements

I already said in my last comment that all the TRM counts are from an image posted way back. You have not yet provided the official statement of Thales that says that there is any 840 TRM radar. First you provide source. I have already provided mine many times and will provide again once you show me your proof.

 

[Sandeep]

Bro we already have 36+26=62 , we dont have 62 we have only 36 second after signing the deal it will take almost 4 to 5 years to deliver all 26 Rafale M by the Time they test & certify

I said that when we get the 26 naval rafale jets we will have 62 jets. But for that many planes we will have commonality with the technology, spares, LRU, maintenance etc so it’s a significant number to make it worth setting up the support infrastructure. Once it’s time for its mid-life upgrade then we can install our indigenous Uttam radar or a similar or better variant of it.

 

[tipoo2]

Agreed, some older platforms might benefit more from the upgrade. But Uttam is very very close to being fielded. Timelines of a French GaN fire control radar is farther away than Indian efforts. This is one area French lose their edge doing everything themselves, compared to a consortium approach taken by Euro fighter.

The same idea had the Rafale developed with an AESA well before the Eurofighter, and coming in with a better all rounded package at lower cost. Not dealing with other countries inputs and desires has its ups and downs.

 

[vamkris]

Use GaN for tejas mk2 Tedbf and super sukhoi not only AMCA

 

[The Presence]

I already said in my last comment that all the TRM counts are from an image posted way back. You have not yet provided the official statement of Thales that says that there is any 840 TRM radar. First you provide source. I have already provided mine many times and will provide again once you show me your proof.

Thales has never stated the TRM count of the RBE-2 till date, neither 800 nor 1000. Radar manufactures seldom announce such things.

What we have is an image of a production model equipped with the RBE-2 AESA. From that we can count the TRMs.

The image isn't from 2000s also as you claim. Here's an article from 2012 which covers the handover ceremony, where the nose-cone of the Rafale was opened to show the radar. Since then this very image used world over as an official source. At the end of the article it's clearly written when that specific image was taken.

French DGA receives first AESA-radar equipped Rafale fighter - Airforce Technology

Dassault Aviation has delivered the first Radar à Balayage Electronique 2 (RBE2) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar-equipped Rafale combat aircraft to the French defence procurement agency (DGA) at its facility in Merignac, France.

www.airforce-technology.com

 

[Akshat]

Thales has never stated the TRM count of the RBE-2 till date, neither 800 nor 1000. Radar manufactures seldom announce such things.

What we have is an image of a production model equipped with the RBE-2 AESA. From that we can count the TRMs.

The image isn't from 2000s also as you claim. Here's an article from 2012 which covers the handover ceremony, where the nose-cone of the Rafale was opened to show the radar. Since then this very image used world over as an official source. At the end of the article it's clearly written when that specific image was taken.

French DGA receives first AESA-radar equipped Rafale fighter - Airforce Technology

Dassault Aviation has delivered the first Radar à Balayage Electronique 2 (RBE2) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar-equipped Rafale combat aircraft to the French defence procurement agency (DGA) at its facility in Merignac, France.

www.airforce-technology.com

I have already shown official Thales statement regarding this. But you claimed Thales showed that the radar has 840 TRMs. You didn’t say back then anything about counting or photo or anything. So why did you lie?

 

[M S Chatterji]

WhAP is Great Example , Got Export order , Dreaming about Stryker

We do not know but Stryker is part of another deal on which you have no choice.