Why Tejas Mk1A Should Consider EuroJet EJ200 or Snecma M88 Engine Amidst GE Delays

While the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk1A program isn't actively seeking a new engine to replace the current GE F-404, potential delays or future considerations might warrant evaluating alternative options.

Two Western engines stand out as potential contenders: the EuroJet EJ200 and the Snecma M88. Let's compare them based on key performance metrics crucial for a light combat aircraft.

Performance Showdown​

• Thrust-to-Weight Ratio (TWR): The M88 holds a slight advantage with a TWR of 8.40:1 compared to the EJ200's 9.17:1, potentially translating to slightly faster initial acceleration.
• Thrust-to-Drag Ratio (TDR): The EJ200 boasts a superior TDR of 23.13 N/cm2 compared to the M88's 19.42 N/cm2, leading to better fuel efficiency and overall performance.
• Fuel Consumption: The M88-2 emerges as the more fuel-efficient option in both dry thrust and afterburner modes, which could extend operational ranges and reduce costs.
• Bypass Ratio: Both engines have low bypass ratios favoring supercruise capability. However, the EJ200's slightly higher ratio might offer a slight edge in maneuverability at lower speeds.
• Maintainability: The EJ200 excels with fewer compressor stages and a modular design, promising easier and potentially cheaper maintenance.
• Infrared Signature: While the EJ200 has a slightly lower inlet temperature, the M88 incorporates additional cooling channels and nozzle designs to minimize its IR signature, potentially offering a tactical advantage by reducing detection.

Wet Thrust Comparison​

• The EJ200 offers a wet thrust of 90kN, surpassing the GE F404's 84kN.
• The M88's wet thrust of 75kN falls short of both the GE F404 and even the older F-404 engines used in earlier prototypes, generating 78kN.

Choosing the Right Fit​

The ideal choice hinges on priorities. The EJ200 excels in peak fuel efficiency, maintainability, higher thrust-to-drag ratio, and a superior thrust-to-weight ratio. The M88-2 shines with its potentially lower IR signature and decent fuel efficiency.

Ultimately, if fuel efficiency and a reduced IR signature are paramount, the M88-2 remains a strong contender. However, if the focus is on enhanced thrust-to-drag and thrust-to-weight ratios, coupled with ease of maintenance and reliability, the EJ200 emerges as the clear frontrunner.

 

[NSR]

M88 is unfit for Tejas IA, Period.

 

[sanket]

You can say it was oversight of HAL or ADA, but Tejas Mk1 didn't perform as envisaged due to higher weight than anticipated and lower thurst engine. that's why we have Mk2 program and there is no naval tejas order.

Then why IAF is ordering additional 97 Tejas MK1A ..........??? IAF needs cerification From u Ha Ha Ha ..................................

 

[sanket]

we will get neither engines, at-least EJ200 is slightly compact, if we don't get US engines we have to forget about EU engines too.

kaveri has to developed in the next 6 to 7 years

 

[sanket]

Order is depended on production or production is depended on order ..........??? Now so called expert is hiding

 

[PKPRS]

kaveri has to developed in the next 6 to 7 years

Only time will tell, some miracle has to happen, we all have to 🙏🙏🙏.

 

[AK S]

This is just a ploy to divert attention from incompetent HAL.. They already have 75-40 =35 engines available, Let say they have used 10 in testing and given other 10 to airforce as a part of contract, they still have 15 engine. Atleast they can start delivering, but the truth is Mk1A is not yet 100% complete (either testing or certification pending). HAL has propagandist who share these stories to divert their accountability.

Almost all of 75 F494 are already used for the development and production of MK1. Remaining (in single digit) were handed over to IAF. IAF loaned 2 of their reserve engine for Mk1A. Of the 75, 5 were older version (78-79KN). Raising it in defence of GE or worse to denigrate HAL is essentially a propaganda.

So far about 58 engines were used in TD, PV, LSP, Tejas-N and MK1. A good number touching two digits were used in data collection and are no longer usable - their ground running hour would be more than their useful life. Whatever were left (less than 10 … my estimate would be 7 or so) been handed over to IAF. So earlier 75 F404 all done.

None of this 75 were anyways meant for Mk1A. 99 F404 IN-20 needed for Mk1A were placed immediately after order of 83 Mk1A in Feb 2021 and none has been delivered. In fact non-delivery was flagged about a year back.

Now fun fact for you - These engines were G2G deals through FMS route and it’s truly beyond HAL. Though HAL is still accountable, MoFA and MoD should have put their weight behind it at least a year before. Who knows they might have and yet at least 3 deadlines have been missed by venerable GE. May not be a coincidence. But lessons learnt have been applied in case of F414 - local production is a precondition. Though it did slow down Mk2 but still a better trade-off.

Another fun fact - our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back! Funding was paltry to start with … about 300m in today’s value. BTW, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. Hope lessons are learnt.

Defence cooperation with US is never gonna be easy.

 

[sanket]

Almost all of 75 F494 are already used for the development and production of MK1. Remaining (in single digit) were handed over to IAF. IAF loaned 2 of their reserve engine for Mk1A. Of the 75, 5 were older version (78-79KN). Raising it in defence of GE or worse to denigrate HAL is essentially a propaganda.

So far about 58 engines were used in TD, PV, LSP, Tejas-N and MK1. A good number touching two digits were used in data collection and are no longer usable - their ground running hour would be more than their useful life. Whatever were left (less than 10 … my estimate would be 7 or so) been handed over to IAF. So earlier 75 F404 all done.

None of this 75 were anyways meant for Mk1A. 99 F404 IN-20 needed for Mk1A were placed immediately after order of 83 Mk1A in Feb 2021 and none has been delivered. In fact non-delivery was flagged about a year back.

Now fun fact for you - These engines were G2G deals through FMS route and it’s truly beyond HAL. Though HAL is still accountable, MoFA and MoD should have put their weight behind it at least a year before. Who knows they might have and yet at least 3 deadlines have been missed by venerable GE. May not be a coincidence. But lessons learnt have been applied in case of F414 - local production is a precondition. Though it did slow down Mk2 but still a better trade-off.

Another fun fact - our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back! Funding was paltry to start with … about 300m in today’s value. BTW, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. Hope lessons are learnt.

Defence cooperation with US is never gonna be easy.

i was knowing it but want to see how many people believe Dream assumption Breakup of 75 GE404 Engine

 

[sanket]

Only time will tell, some miracle has to happen, we all have to 🙏🙏🙏.

kaveri Engine likely to b integrated on one of the Tejas . which is genrating 73 kN

 

[AK S]

Where do you see HAL incompetence? This engine delay may be deliberate on US part.

Raising the old supply of 75 engines are mere propaganda to denigrate HAL so that venerable GE will shine out and their incompetence is covered. It’s so easy to blame and shame a DPSU. People will accept it so easily … or so they think. French and US lobby are working overtime. French lobby love to hate and badmouth HAL.

 

[sanket]

Actually a lot is needed. It will take years and a billion or even more.

its wise to invest billion after all 660 Engines will b required further for Tejas MK1A , Lesson has to learn from this for not to depend on US Our Beloved tejas has to Fly in Air .it will take another 7 years to develop 90 kN Thrust kaveri Engine i always said Fine tunning of kaveri is on

 

[PKPRS]

kaveri Engine likely to b integrated on one of the Tejas . which is genrating 73 kN

Only 50Kn dry thrust, engine is too bulky and heavy, they are still working on the After Burner

 

[Dredd]

Almost all of 75 F494 are already used for the development and production of MK1. Remaining (in single digit) were handed over to IAF. IAF loaned 2 of their reserve engine for Mk1A. Of the 75, 5 were older version (78-79KN). Raising it in defence of GE or worse to denigrate HAL is essentially a propaganda.

So far about 58 engines were used in TD, PV, LSP, Tejas-N and MK1. A good number touching two digits were used in data collection and are no longer usable - their ground running hour would be more than their useful life. Whatever were left (less than 10 … my estimate would be 7 or so) been handed over to IAF. So earlier 75 F404 all done.

None of this 75 were anyways meant for Mk1A. 99 F404 IN-20 needed for Mk1A were placed immediately after order of 83 Mk1A in Feb 2021 and none has been delivered. In fact non-delivery was flagged about a year back.

Now fun fact for you - These engines were G2G deals through FMS route and it’s truly beyond HAL. Though HAL is still accountable, MoFA and MoD should have put their weight behind it at least a year before. Who knows they might have and yet at least 3 deadlines have been missed by venerable GE. May not be a coincidence. But lessons learnt have been applied in case of F414 - local production is a precondition. Though it did slow down Mk2 but still a better trade-off.

Another fun fact - our babus and IAF stopped funding for Kaveri 15 years back! Funding was paltry to start with … about 300m in today’s value. BTW, we wrote off that much in failed FGFA. Hope lessons are learnt.

Defence cooperation with US is never gonna be easy.

Seems you have come after watching subodh propaganda video

 

[Dredd]

Joke of the year lOl

people believe easily to base less comment ,but for truth it is very difficult Reality is 75 Engine deal of 404 is for Tejas mk1 & 99 404 for Tejas MK1A.your breakup is Full of dream assumption i dont want to exposed let see how many believe it

Just tell where did the 35 engine spent. Each engine has 6000 hours of life. Tejas has done total test sorties of approx 6500hours till date

 

[sanket]

Just tell where did the 35 engine spent. Each engine has 6000 hours of life. Tejas has done total test sorties of approx 6500hours till date

Pototypes, LSP , Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A how they are Flying just answer

 

[Dredd]

Then why IAF is ordering additional 97 Tejas MK1A ..........??? IAF needs cerification From u Ha Ha Ha ..................................

I have never said anything against mk1a.. it's hal who is responsible for mess and they should own it.. the contract had the penalty clause for delivery delay. It's time iaf should invoke that clause and put heavy penalties.

 

[sanket]

I have never said anything against mk1a.. it's hal who is responsible for mess and they should own it.. the contract had the penalty clause for delivery delay. It's time iaf should invoke that clause and put heavy penalties.

dont run from ur comment u said GE-404 is under power / Lower Thrust second penalties will not happen it was Again last minitues demand from IAF & Testing needs Time for any further new addition, HAL is doing without charging xtra Just to Remind u 35 Rafale were delivered without Indian specific Enhancement and it was integrated within one year after delivery HAL is doing First not after delivery of Tejas MK1A.

 

[Dredd]

Raising the old supply of 75 engines are mere propaganda to denigrate HAL so that venerable GE will shine out and their incompetence is covered. It’s so easy to blame and shame a DPSU. People will accept it so easily … or so they think. French and US lobby are working overtime. French lobby love to hate and badmouth HAL.

Yes.. as per you, HAL has always delivers on time and with best quality.. we are still getting issues with Dhruv even after 30 years of its development. Did any one question HAL when the updated tejas mk1 crashed.. it was just updated by HAL.

HAL should be accountable for even one engine that they prluechased from taxpayers money.

 

[Dredd]

dont run from ur comment u said GE-404 is under power / Lower Thrust second penalties will not happen it was Again last minitues demand from IAF & Testing needs Time for any further new addition, HAL is doing without charging xtra Just to Remind u 35 Rafale were delivered without Indian specific Enhancement and it was integrated within one year after delivery HAL is doing First not after delivery of Tejas MK1A.

Yes.. tell me why airforce didn't want tejas mk1.. and why tejas mk2 was proposed?
Tejas mk1a was a compromise between iaf and hal brokered by mr. Parrikar but it turned out a good one.

 

[Dredd]

Pototypes, LSP , Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A how they are Flying just answer

Are all of them flying ? They were developed ,flown and improved. Few of them are used to test avionics etc. I have counted them as well in.

 

[sanket]

Are all of them flying ? They were developed ,flown and improved. Few of them are used to test avionics etc. I have counted them as well in.

yes all of them are flying 40 Tejas (IOC+FOC) + Prototypes ,LSP Naval Tejas & 2 Tejas MK1A Now calculate & tell .....???