Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) News and Discussion

[BnglrTester]

This issue will cease to exist if HAL alongside other PSUs are privatised.

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

In P75I also, foreign companies were hesitant to participate because of liability(risk) reasons. But eventually policy was reworked to assuage their concerns and now P75I is going well.

Something similar can be done in this case. There can be tweaks in the policy, so that govt takes some of the risk that right now private players have to deal with. I believe that a slution will be found. We still have some time as serial production is still far away.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

Woh Tata TASL, Mahindra Aerospace and Adani defence & Aerspace are invsetments into making making toasters and frying pans in their factories.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Where is that written in the entire article?

Did you read the article?
It clearly mentions that private company do not want to share risk emanating out of project being led by HAL and ADA.

The entire article is about them not wanting financial risk. Private companies want to reduce the risk, they also lack expertise to build a fighter jet. What you are suggesting is that they build a prototype for 5th gen fighter and compete with HAL and friends for defence contract. That is like asking a 10th class student coding enthusiast to compete with a google software developer.

Spending all that time and money developing a prototype 5th gen fighter, when you lack expertise and you are asked to compete for contracts with an established juggernaut...... you dont think it is INSANELY risky?

 

[Pink Panther]

This issue will cease to exist if HAL alongside other PSUs are privatised.

Then that private company will become like HAL, work cultures will never change.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Where is that written in the entire article?

Did you read the article?
It clearly mentions that private company do not want to share risk emanating out of project being led by HAL and ADA.

No, that is not what article says. It says that private companies dont want a situation where HAL and ADA are incharge of everything, while private players are the ones putting in money. It says that if private players ars going to put money then they want a seat in decision making table. And that risk should be shared between private players, and HAL, ADA. Right now what is being proposed puts the entire risk on private players while HAL and ADA make the decisions.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Spending all that time and money developing a prototype 5th gen fighter, when you lack expertise and you are asked to compete for contracts with an established juggernaut...... you dont think it is INSANELY risky?

Haan bhai, HAL has been making 5th and 6th gen aircraft since ages and have an impeccable record of delivering everything on-time without delays.

HAL Tejas, HAL IJT, HAL MTA are all examples where HAL has delivered projected platforma on time.

Way I see it, depending on HAL alone for the future of aeronautical Industry in India is the biggest risk the nation is taking. Allowing private players to come up with their design and expertise is called risk hedging, not risk taking.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Then that private company will become like HAL, work cultures will never change.

Hahahaha. A private company like HAL would shut shop withing a month.

 

[Akshat]

In P75I also, foreign companies were hesitant to participate because of liability(risk) reasons. But eventually policy was reworked to assuage their concerns and now P75I is going well.

Something similar can be done in this case. There can be tweaks in the policy, so that govt takes some of the risk that right now private players have to deal with. I believe that a slution will be found. We still have some time as serial production is still far away.

There are no such risks. GoI is financing the entire development cost. CCS has approved it. IAF gives an advance amount when orders are placed, which is enough for all capex and initial opex (they paid 7000 crores in advance for Tejas mk1a deal). So no one has to invest anything.

Problem again is ADA and HAL. Ex ACM Bhadoria has said this on record that HAL and ADA are not inviting the private players.

 

[Akshat]

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

Do you know the profit margins of HAL? Compare that with the likes of Tata steel or other heavy industries. It’s a gold mine.

 

[Akshat]

What you are suggesting is the american model. Bro, in order to do that you need an incredible amount of money.

Did you read the article? Private companies are hesitant to join SPV because of financial risk. What you are suggesting is that they build a prototype to compete with a different prototype, and best one wins. This is hugely risky, as if their prototype gets rejected they will suffer losses, which is exactly what they dont want.

This is most brain dead suggestion for indian context.

Did you read ACM Bhadoria’s comments?

 

[Akshat]

The entire article is about them not wanting financial risk. Private companies want to reduce the risk, they also lack expertise to build a fighter jet. What you are suggesting is that they build a prototype for 5th gen fighter and compete with HAL and friends for defence contract. That is like asking a 10th class student coding enthusiast to compete with a google software developer.

Spending all that time and money developing a prototype 5th gen fighter, when you lack expertise and you are asked to compete for contracts with an established juggernaut...... you dont think it is INSANELY risky?

Anyone can compete with HAL with ease as HaL is guaranteed to fail like with Mk2 or mk1a.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Right now what is being proposed puts the entire risk on private players while HAL and ADA make the decisions.

And what is wrong in the private player's demand?

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

And what is wrong in the private player's demand?

None. They have a perfectly valid concern. I never said they were unjustified or being paranoid. I said that their concerns will have to be taken care of and a compromise will have to be reached. Like what happened in P75I. The foreign players were complaining about risk and liability clause resting in them entirely while he domestic shipyards will be the ones building the subs. That is why the tender got delayed so much. After the policy was changed, and the concerns of the foreign players were addressed, the tender finally moved forward.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Haan bhai, HAL has been making 5th and 6th gen aircraft since ages and have an impeccable record of delivering everything on-time without delays.

HAL Tejas, HAL IJT, HAL MTA are all examples where HAL has delivered projected platforma on time.

Way I see it, depending on HAL alone for the future of aeronautical Industry in India is the biggest risk the nation is taking. Allowing private players to come up with their design and expertise is called risk hedging, not risk taking.

You are cherry picking HAL's failures. You forget the Dhruv, prachand, rudra, dornier, jaguar, Su-30MKI, tejas mk1.

Whether you like HAL or not, you cant deny that HAL has experience and expertiseaa when it comes to building fighters

 

[kumar]

I always thought that private sector was supposed to head AMCA SPV and utilize DPSU infrastructure for the program. Where required, DPSUs were supposed to hand hold private players.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

You are cherry picking HAL's failures. You forget the Dhruv, prachand, rudra, dornier, jaguar, Su-30MKI, tejas mk1.

HAL has been a DPSU since 1964. In its glorious 60 years of existance, you were able to list seven aircrafts of which:-

Helicopters - 03
Foreign designed aircrafts - 03
Indigenous designed - 01 (02 if you add HF-24 Marut)

Will let readers come with their own judgement of HAL's record.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

HAL has been a DPSU since 1964. In its glorious 60 years of existance, you were able to list seven aircrafts of which:-

Helicopters - 03
Foreign designed aircrafts - 03
Indigenous designed - 01 (02 if you add HF-24 Marut)

Will let readers come with their own judgement of HAL's record.

If you combine the design and R&D budget of every aircraft HAL has ever designed or built or upgraded, it will still be lower than F35 Design cost. Let that sink in.

 

[Dagger]

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

definitely no. TATA released a satellite and they make cars too. Not an issue

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

If you combine the design and R&D budget of every aircraft HAL has ever designed or built or upgraded, it will still be lower than F35 Design cost. Let that sink in.

This is personal assumption, right?
Or you know the actual figures?

Let that sink in.

Bhai, figure do aur sink karwa do.