IAF Not Interested in Land-Based Variant of TEDBF, Focusing on AMCA and Tejas MkII

IAF Not Interested in Land-Based Variant of TEDBF, Focusing on AMCA and Tejas MkII


The Indian Navy's vision for a new carrier-borne fighter jet, the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), seems to be encountering rough seas from the Indian Air Force (IAF). The IAF has reportedly shown little interest in the Navy's proposal for a land-based variant of the TEDBF, named the Omni-Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA).

Why the IAF Isn't on Board with ORCA​

According to a senior IAF official, developing the ORCA would be redundant. The IAF is already heavily invested in the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a domestically manufactured 5th-generation fighter jet in the same weight class (around 25 tons) as the ORCA. The AMCA boasts features like stealth technology and advanced avionics, putting it at the forefront of modern fighter jet design.

The IAF has a clear roadmap for its fighter jet fleet. This includes inducting the lighter Tejas MkII fighters (around 17.5 tons) – 200 units are planned – followed by the more advanced AMCA with an estimated procurement of 200 units post-2033. Additionally, they're looking to acquire 97 Tejas Mk1A fighters, bringing their total Tejas fleet to a substantial 220.

When questioned about the possibility of ORCA replacing the Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) program (likely to result in the selection of the Rafale jets), IAF officials highlighted their existing investment in infrastructure and pilot training for the 36 Rafales already in service. They see the ORCA as offering no significant technological leap over the Tejas MkII or AMCA, making it an unnecessary expense.

Navy Sails On with TEDBF​

Despite the IAF's disinterest, the TEDBF program remains a priority for the Navy. The 26-ton TEDBF is specifically designed for operation from India's aircraft carriers, and it's intended to replace their ageing MiG-29K fleet.

Looking Ahead: Collaboration or Separate Paths?​

The IAF's focus on the AMCA and Tejas MkII programs signifies a strategic shift towards self-reliance in 5th-generation fighter jet technology. The Navy's TEDBF program, however, remains crucial for maintaining their carrier-based airpower. Whether the future holds collaboration between the IAF and Navy on a joint carrier-borne fighter jet project remains to be seen.
 
Surely it is possible. Just impossible when HAL is involved. They can't even make 8 trainers a year. Last year HAL administration itself said they will make at least 8 trainers but have failed to do that.
This is just your bias without basis. HAL used to make 20 Su30s about a decade back
 
Conservative enough? 🤣🤣🤣Mk2 hasn't been rolled out after 2 decades despite a direct commitment from HAL itself to roll it out in 2022. So no, it's nowhere near conservative and is guaranteed to be delayed.

As for the 'Indian plan', Indian plan is to have more MRFA fighters. Officially confirmed by IAF itself, as well as MoD.
MK2 was sanctioned in 2010 and UPA sabotaged its progress till 2014. AMCA was also sanctioned at similar time. How did 2 decades happen?
 
Tejas is slowed down by foreign players? Please show me one single instance of this. A single one.
One article a foreign magazine Janes which says supply problems in geopolitics:
It does not specify which part but it clearly says international geopolitics related delays
 
Is Tejas Mk1 indigenous? The answer is no. It is an indigenous design but not fully indigenous technology. It has only 60% indigenous content as admitted by defence ministry itself. The foreign suppliers are unreliable and have political motivations to slow down Indian arms production and hence deliver in very slow rates, But if it was indigenous, it would not have been slowed down. Regarding Tejas Mk1 order, even if India places order for 10000 of it, HAL won't be able to manufacture 40/year as USA will refuse to supply so many engines stating that it will disrupt regional stability & balance of power! This is the problem with import dependency.

As for limit, it will depend on raw material availability, labour availability & no other real constraint if 100% indigenous. I don't know where you are getting weird ideas but that is not even close to reality. As for demand, that purely depends on political will. Do have the lowest possible IQ to not understand "arms race avoidance"? There is no private demand for submarine & everything is govt demand. But when it is life vs death like in wars or even anticipating wars, there will be unlimited demand. Talking about demand is most foolish when it comes to security needs!

As for complexity, can you explain as to how complex is modern submarine vs older submarine & how advanced is modern manufacturing vs older manufacturing, you will see that the tooling & machinery to manufacture has become equally advanced as compared to the submarine design & features. This nearly compensates the speed of manufacturing difference.

As for cost, cost is dependent on scaling. Just look how much a colour TV costed in 1980s vs how much it costs now. I remember a colour TV costing Rs15000 for 29 inch CRT whereas now we can get 40inch LED at that rate! As one scales up, the cost goes down. Yes, there is practical limits but that limit is at least x1000 times as the production that is being done now.

For example, India manufactures 4 Tejas per year. Do you know of any company with capacity of making only 4 landing gears per year? Only 4 sets of body parts a year? Only 4 canopies a year? Only 4 sets of communication devices a year? Do you even understand how absurd it looks when you shout from rooftop that this is a practical limit? The company which is supplying 4 canopies can produce 100 canopies a year but is intentionally holding back 96% of capacity. This is why even a single military grade screw costs 300-400 rupees, although similar civilian grade ones sell at 2-3 rupees. This exorbitant cost for even small parts is a result of the holding back of capacity due to political policy I mentioned above.

The manufacturing can be increased 25x in just a few days as the labour is already present and all one needs is to enhance supply of raw materials. Workers gets fixed pay regardless of 4 is manufactured or 100 is manufactured. During current times, the workers are having an easy period with low work but still kept in job due to critical defence needs. Even most of the soldiers in the army & CAPF do useless work like training, running, digging the land, cutting logs etc as a means of keeping the soldiers active, fit and motivated so that if war starts, they will be ready for action immediately. That is the definition of idle capacity & military has the highest idle capacity for this reason
If the Tejas Mk 1A isn't fully indigenous, then neither will the Tejas Mk 2, nor will the submarines be indigenous to the same extent. Moreover, if you could actually indigenise production of all of the subsystems, you still have external bottlenecks, and that could be something as simple as rare materials.

On the other hand, you are again taking the example of the production rate of a consumer good like a TV to compare it to the production rate of a fighter.

You want me to compare prices for two fighters built in comparable numbers? Sure. The F-86 was built at a similar production rate to the F-16, though the numbers are different. A F-86 would, by today's money, cost around 2.6 million dollars each (and about 4-ish million USD if you adjusted for equality in numbers). A F-16 costs 60 million USD. Answer that, would you?

Now, you took the figure of 4. Did I, at any point, say the limit is 4? Stop trying to gaslight me. The practical limit may well be 30 or 40 or something else. That's it. Now, you don't need to manufacture exactly 30 each of 100 parts to be stuck to a production rate of 30. Even if you could manufacture 100 copies of 99 parts, but the 100th part had a production limit of 30 a year, you are getting 30 jets a year. That's it. That is how bottlenecks work. You need to scale up ALL subsystems to increase production rates.

Now, if you feel the military is buying stuff at an expensive rate, do one thing: Take a small loan from the bank, and start manufacturing screws (by your example) for the military. Go ahead, and sell it to them at 10% of what the present suppliers sell it at. I will give it to you in writing that if you can manage that profitably, you'll hold the monopoly on screws within 2 years. Heck, do that, and I'll personally pay off your loan.

Now, coming to the manufacturing itself: Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can't increase manufacturing 25-fold in a few days even if you wanted to. Manufacturing needs three things: Land (infrastructure), labour (workers), and capital (money). You can have all the labour in the world, and you can throw as much money as you want at the plant and the workers, but you won't gey anything done unless your workforce is trained sufficiently, you have a suitable supply of raw materials and intermediate goods coming in, and you have a large production line set up in a way that every single component is mass-produced profitably. That mass-production is based on supply-demand dynamics and not wishful thinking.

A worker may get paid the same if they manufacture 4 or 10 items of one kind, but producing 100 items of one kind may well require you to have 10 workers and far more machinery, etc. All that adds up to money that needs to be invested.

Finally, let me get this right. You are seriously suggesting that we should ask our soldiers and other people to work in defence factories rather than protect the country? Seriously? Have you been spending too much time studying the North Korean Army or something? Are you out of your mind?

Seriously, be practical, and stop your daydreaming. Stop comparing production rates of mass-manufactured equipment to that of highly-complex (and expensive) defence equipment manufacturing. Oh, and if what you said was true, you would see the US and China just rushing out one destroyer and submarine a month, instead of the 2-3 of each they roll out in any given year.
 
Not inducted??? It hasn't received FOC, yes, because that was the plan anyways. To prove the minimum basic required functions and then induct it, with additional features being proven and integrated over time. But it has surely been inducted and is conducting operations not just with US but even with other nations.
It has been inducted but in far fewer numbers. Also, F18s are still dominant in USN, not F35B
 
Total package fighters and armaments and spares and services.
Nothing free.
Even with that, it won't go anywhere near 10 billion USD. A lot of spares and services will be bundled with those of the IAF anyways, so other than getting a small number of extra spares, that expense isn't there. Similarly, the cost of India-specific enhancements won't be present this time around. Moreover, we already have the support system for most of the Rafale's munitions, so that is another reduced expense.

With everything put together, we may be looking at a 6.5-7 billion USD deal.
 
Well they are promising it and we are putting it in tender. We don’t know how much they can scale up. That is for them to decide. We will get ours in 36 months and that is the only thing that matters. Else slap on a penalty. Simple as that.

Also, where did the 306 number came from? As of December 31 2023, the total backlog is 211. This includes 70 for France and 141 for exports. 18 extra planes entered into picture on 8 January. So how did it come to 306???
Backlog of 306 soon to be of 351☝️

Now coming to your statement , idk what's giving u that idea.... u r taking the scenario of 5 years before..

Currently Dassault is no room deliver more ........we aren't getting any jets before a decade.
 
If the Tejas Mk 1A isn't fully indigenous, then neither will the Tejas Mk 2, nor will the submarines be indigenous to the same extent. Moreover, if you could actually indigenise production of all of the subsystems, you still have external bottlenecks, and that could be something as simple as rare materials.

On the other hand, you are again taking the example of the production rate of a consumer good like a TV to compare it to the production rate of a fighter.

You want me to compare prices for two fighters built in comparable numbers? Sure. The F-86 was built at a similar production rate to the F-16, though the numbers are different. A F-86 would, by today's money, cost around 2.6 million dollars each (and about 4-ish million USD if you adjusted for equality in numbers). A F-16 costs 60 million USD. Answer that, would you?

Now, you took the figure of 4. Did I, at any point, say the limit is 4? Stop trying to gaslight me. The practical limit may well be 30 or 40 or something else. That's it. Now, you don't need to manufacture exactly 30 each of 100 parts to be stuck to a production rate of 30. Even if you could manufacture 100 copies of 99 parts, but the 100th part had a production limit of 30 a year, you are getting 30 jets a year. That's it. That is how bottlenecks work. You need to scale up ALL subsystems to increase production rates.

Now, if you feel the military is buying stuff at an expensive rate, do one thing: Take a small loan from the bank, and start manufacturing screws (by your example) for the military. Go ahead, and sell it to them at 10% of what the present suppliers sell it at. I will give it to you in writing that if you can manage that profitably, you'll hold the monopoly on screws within 2 years. Heck, do that, and I'll personally pay off your loan.

Now, coming to the manufacturing itself: Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can't increase manufacturing 25-fold in a few days even if you wanted to. Manufacturing needs three things: Land (infrastructure), labour (workers), and capital (money). You can have all the labour in the world, and you can throw as much money as you want at the plant and the workers, but you won't gey anything done unless your workforce is trained sufficiently, you have a suitable supply of raw materials and intermediate goods coming in, and you have a large production line set up in a way that every single component is mass-produced profitably. That mass-production is based on supply-demand dynamics and not wishful thinking.

A worker may get paid the same if they manufacture 4 or 10 items of one kind, but producing 100 items of one kind may well require you to have 10 workers and far more machinery, etc. All that adds up to money that needs to be invested.

Finally, let me get this right. You are seriously suggesting that we should ask our soldiers and other people to work in defence factories rather than protect the country? Seriously? Have you been spending too much time studying the North Korean Army or something? Are you out of your mind?

Seriously, be practical, and stop your daydreaming. Stop comparing production rates of mass-manufactured equipment to that of highly-complex (and expensive) defence equipment manufacturing. Oh, and if what you said was true, you would see the US and China just rushing out one destroyer and submarine a month, instead of the 2-3 of each they roll out in any given year.
Tejas Mk1 is the beginning, not the end. Tejas Mk2 will use lot of commonalities from Tejas & indigenise parts which are not indigenous now. That is how Tejas Mk2 will be indigenous but after 2030.

I gave you the example to say why most of the parts are underproduced and with same labour, one can ramp up the production to much greater degree. As for 1 out of 100 part which has bottleneck, one only needs to set up additional unit to make that part only. This means only 2% additional investment for scaling up by a factor of 20-25. This is no big deal.

Training of workforce does not make years. It only takes few months. If there are already experienced workers, just make them supervisors and add 2-3 newbies to the team. They will learn on the go as they start working. Teething time may be 3-6 months at best. Also, many workers from automobile & electronic industry can be pulled in if needed.

Also, I am not saying it is possible to lower cost in current rate of orders. But if the orders are scaled by 20-25 times, the screw can be sold at 20 rupees instead of 300. As for price comparison of F86 & F16, in defence there is no price equivalent of inflation as calculated in civilian CPI. It all is context based. Till 1980s, if USA overcharged, countries would simply buy from USSR. But after 1990, Western states jacked up the price as they became monopoly, not because its cost or production increased

I am not saying soldiers should work in factories but giving examples of idle capacities with armed forces across all division - manpower to industry - everything has idle capacity of over 90%.

As for rates of production, what I am saying is 100% true. The reason why USA & China don't ramp up is because they don't want arms race. They all need oil & other trade with 3rd parties which will be disturbed if they feel threatened. Remember that the world runs on natural resource trade, especially fossil fuels. Even a slight disturbance will have serious consequences. This is why the restraint and lower number of production is done, not due to cost issues. This is also why the cost of defence weapons are bloated - to reduce demand & to fleece any country in times of distress.
 
Backlog of 306 soon to be of 351☝️

Now coming to your statement , idk what's giving u that idea.... u r taking the scenario of 5 years before..

Currently Dassault is no room deliver more ........we aren't getting any jets before a decade.
Went to the link. Apart from the headline, nothing else comes. Here is the official report from Dassault itself.
So what I am talking about is very much the current situation. We will get the first jets within 36 months.
 
It has been inducted but in far fewer numbers. Also, F18s are still dominant in USN, not F35B
Every single jet that can be manufactured is being manufactured. And of course. F18 were in production for decades. Over time they will reduce when enough f35 are ready. Even in our inventory we have more Migs than Tejas. Doesn't mean Tejas hasn't been inducted.
 
One article a foreign magazine Janes which says supply problems in geopolitics:
It does not specify which part but it clearly says international geopolitics related delays
Is this official? I always say that DRDO, HAL and DPSUs spread lies. CAG has audited it and said this themselves.
 
MK2 was sanctioned in 2010 and UPA sabotaged its progress till 2014. AMCA was also sanctioned at similar time. How did 2 decades happen?
IAF said in 2005 that it will buy 200 Mk2. So the basic features and designs must have been confirmed back then. That's 2 decades.
 
Yes, of course, we are purchasing 200 MK2, 220 MK1A, and 200 AMCA. However, we need one more twin-engine 4.5-gen fighter instead of MRFA. There's no sign of selecting MRFA in the near future, and even if chosen, it will take another 10 years. Why not consider ORCA instead of MRFA? It would be better to buy 36 more Rafales. Our strength lies in having different variants of fighters. Of course, maintenance is a nightmare, but it's good to confuse our rivals
Thambi Bala, if Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA are surrounded by unpredictable uncertainties ORCA may even take much longer. ORCA, I believe is just in the idea stage probably is not even on the drawing board. All these Mk2, AMCA and TEDBF certainly will take much longer time than expected. We should have gone with the 114 MRFA fighter aircrafts long ago when IAF mooted the idea for urgent need for MRFA to bolster the dwindling fighter squadrons in the IAF. This is all about forward forecast, planning and taking proactive measures to contain our adversaries. Now we are like neither here nor there. Everything seems far reaching bcoz of our casual approach to urgent defence requirements. We are famous for dragging our feet in our decision making on crucial necessities. I read few days back someone said china is not going attack India anytime soon bcoz no one wants war. I find it amusing that there are people still doesn't know much about cunning china or ignorant how china made a surprise attack on Indian forces while negotiations still undergoing. Even late but better than to be sorry India must procure 114 MRFA fighter aircrafts soon. Let HAL and ADA take their time to concentrate on their projects incorporating all the vital advanced technologies in these projects without pressure. Just my suggestion we should go for 50 percent F4 Rafael fighters and another 50 percent heavy fighters like F15EX. We have spent more than 200 million USD in the Russian fighter project so we can be stingy to spend for something highly imperative for defence of the nation.

just my opinion.
 
IAF isn't willing to divert it's funds for TEDBF now and it's understandable.. Navy should focus on TEDBF and later when the prototype gets ready then IAF can join the program.. Not to forget Requirement of 50+ TEDBF jets will increase as all mig-29k will be retired by 2035 & IAC2 will be ready for induction by 2036-37.

IAF can replace 150 Su-30mki by ( Airforce version of TEDBF ) and also increase the squadron strength.
 
Oh the Russian jet is horrendous. India dumped 300 million USD and walked out. Russia itself cut down the orders by 70%.
Better than France not being able to produce one jet to even call as 5th gen or a 5th gen jet engine, even with help from a million Countries.
 
Backlog of 306 soon to be of 351☝️

Now coming to your statement , idk what's giving u that idea.... u r taking the scenario of 5 years before..

Currently Dassault is no room deliver more ........we aren't getting any jets before a decade.
Saudi might order 80, Turkey is also in talks and they might order 80 as well, so the backlog will soon be 466.
 
There is a requirement for 150-ish TEDBF between three carriers and shore squadrons. Moreover, the IAF could even push for getting the Rafale Ms transferred if the TEDBF becomes available in large numbers in the 2030s.

Considering that the Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA were started out with a 120 aircraft potential order book, 150 for TEDBF is more than sufficient to proceed. Moreover, if we could then develop it further into a STOL variant, it could even potentially be deployed in small numbers on the planned MRSV LHDs.
But by the time of their actual induction arrives that is by late 2030s,there will be no more point in purchasing any 4.5th Gen jets.I am simply saying by that point,IN should just concentrate on acquiring real 5th gen birds instead of continuing to buy 4th gen ones.
 
A navalised AMCA is a good fit for CATOBAR operations (other concerns aside). It is also an absolutely terrible STOBAR fighter due to the forced compromises in fuel and/or payload.
Naval AMCA can't match the current stealth technology of f35b/c capabilities when it's flying in a aircraft carrier 😹😹😹
That's why it was rejected bruh
 
Wow! Fantastic idea. If TEDBF/ORCA is cancelled we need 2nd bkup plan ABCD/EFGH and if that is cancelled we need a 3rd bkup plan.
Well try to derail Bharat's steady growth advising unnecessary, multiple & parallel plans so that every plan gets collapsed and Bharat is forced to import.
Well buying imported aircraft is more reliable and faster to acquire than wasting money and time for solo developing of indigenous aircraft because of to much toxic bureaucrats
 
Let MKII fly. Timeline and quality of MK II will decide if and how many more Rafales are needed and bought.

Time will tell. MRFA didn’t happen in two decades!

MRFA is simply way too costly. In that money ($25B-30B), both AMCA, MKII along with the 110KN class of engine can be developed (costing about $10B) and about 200-250 (costing about $15B-20B) of these indigenous fighters can be procured too. Cost is the single biggest reason MRFA may not happen. But for that MKII and AMCA need to fly.
Developing AMCA until 15~20yrs from now
 
Rightfully so because IAF needs a bigger and 5th Generation AMCA with all the bells and whistles.
Whereas TEDBF is a smaller version and will not fit in IAF requirements.

Too many fighter development programs at the same time - Tejas Mk IA, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, and AMCA.
Very difficult for a country like India and failures will be high.

On the top of that IN will be paying dearly through their noses for 26 Rafale-Ms - not less than $8+ billions for them and $2+ billions for their armaments.
Perhaps, IN should use this $10+ billions to develop its own TEDBF and armaments and save money for India and other services procurements needs.

We can't blame IAF.
Wish IAF only wants all the bells and whistles in AMCA, they would want all the bells and whistles in every jet HAL makes, which is the reason for all the delays.
 
AMCA is slow and no where near to be found 😹😹😹
Its only a overhype and overspec aircraft on paper and CGI....
Same goes to Tejas mk2, why still buying mk1a when they said mk2 is more better???? No prototype only in article story🙃
 

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